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Old 07-26-2019, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Iamfarticus View Post
I have read more than a few books on the JFK case. I have come to the conclusion that LHO was having a Coke in the 2nd floor break room when the shooting took place.

Kennedy's body and the whole entourage came back to DC on 2 planes. LBJ orchestrated who went on what plane very carefully. The one with JFK got back early, by design.

His body was promptly taken into Bethesda Hospital and his wounds were altered to fit the narrative they wanted to sell the public, namely LHO and the lone gunman theory. Who oversaw the detail? None other than Warren Commission toady, Gerald Ford.
If you have read the books then you know that LBJ let Jackie Kennedy make the choice as to which one of three military hospitals to take the body to. So in order to pull off an alteration and brain switch there would have had to of been three teams of doctors ready to lie and compromise themselves and know they were going to do this in advance and that the president was going to be murdered that day and they were expected to keep quiet about it for the rest of there lives? I don't buy that for one second. Sounds like you have read too much Harrison Livingstone and Robert Groden.
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Old 07-26-2019, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
ONE OF The things that require consideration..
IF it was a hard contact muzzle to body when fired,
those hot gasses are extremely damaging to the body, especially when in soft tissue areas like the stomach.

Those gasses could have ruptured a LOT of body organs and other critical things.

Just ask Jon Erik Hexum . He was an actor on a 60s series who stuck a blank gun to his head goofing around and blew his brains out.

In Jeff Cooper's writings he relates a situation where a guy down the block from him took an '06 blank stuck it in his rifle then stuck the muzzle in his mouth. When Cooper arrived he said the only thing left of the head was part of the brain stem where it attached to the spine. The rest had been blown away by the high pressure gasses.

You read about houses being blown up by gas explosions where nothing blows but the gas inside the house.

THAT HUGE infusion of hot gas cannot be good for a human body.
The gas isn't what killed Jon Hexum. It was the fragments of his skull that the gas propelled into his brain from the .44 magnum blank, when he pressed it tightly to his temple. Such gasses from a live standard velocity .38 special would be less likely to cause as much serious damage when fired against the abdominal cavity. The bullet was more than adequate to cause Oswald's expiration.

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Old 07-26-2019, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Herd Sniper View Post

President Kennedy reacts to a front/rear type of shot. Oswald was almost a sure 90 degrees to Kennedy's right side when the shots were made. A bullet fired from the right would have tipped Kennedy towards his left side. There's no 2 ways about it, something is amiss with the Kennedy Assassination's ballistics.
This is the reason for my not believing any "debunk" theory, such as the SS "accident." At least one shot was fired from elsewhere.

So many theories put forth serve only to have us all question who was behind the assassinations/deaths of JFK, LHO and Jack Ruby. Serves the powers that be very well.
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Old 07-26-2019, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Iamfarticus View Post
The Carcano was an Italy WWII surplus rifle, I believe it was bought mail order for $18. Iron sights, no scope. Given the downward angle and hitting a moving target (although moving slowly..) it is hard to fathom someone actually killing JFK given the gun and timing of the shots.

The SS was told to hang back from the motorcade. Back a couple of cars, a minute or so before the shooting, LBJ was ducking down on the floorboards of the limo he was in. There are pictures of his wife in the car, he's a ton taller than she is and there are a few photos where he is absent.
From what Ive seen from two sources now, the bullet that hit his head, came from a more level attitude and not the downward attitude from whoever was doing the shooting with the Carcano.

That also makes the "SS did it" theory much more plausible and likely.

The damage caused by whatever hit his head was also more in line with what a .223 would do vs the 6.5. The one investigator who was the ballistic expert, also said the diameter of the entrance wound was not a 6.5.

I dont at this point remember where he got that from though, but they did discuss/explain it pretty thoroughly.

The SS documentary on this is (or at least was) on Netflix and this is the title... "JFK: The Smoking Gun".

Im thinking the second one that was done as if it were a cold case, with new tech to investigate was called "Cold Case JFK", and it was done by NOVA.

I would definitely watch the one on the SS. Ive watched pretty much everything one this over the years, and I think this one is probably the closest to "the truth" youre going to get.
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Old 07-26-2019, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by mojomandan View Post
This is the reason for my not believing any "debunk" theory, such as the SS "accident." At least one shot was fired from elsewhere.

So many theories put forth serve only to have us all question who was behind the assassinations/deaths of JFK, LHO and Jack Ruby. Serves the powers that be very well.
Watch that movie and draw your own conclusions.

No one is saying Oswald or who ever wasnt there and wasnt shooting, simply that he wasnt the one who made the (truly) fatal shot.

If I remember right, the SS agent who had the M16, had no training on it (they were still new at that point), was not familiar with it, and was the only agent that wasnt drunk from the night before and why he was given the gun. Or so the story goes.

He was in the car behind, and stood up when the shooting started, just as the driver gunned the gar, which made him fall back and he discharged the gun as he went. When they project the track of the bullet in reverse from when he was shot (based on his head position at the time of the shot and the track of the bullet through his head), it points to that trailing car. Not up towards the TBD.

Theres no disputing "someone" was trying to shoot him. It looks more and more now, we may have better evidence of who actually did kill him.
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Old 07-26-2019, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
ONE OF The things that require consideration..
IF it was a hard contact muzzle to body when fired,
those hot gasses are extremely damaging to the body, especially when in soft tissue areas like the stomach.

Those gasses could have ruptured a LOT of body organs and other critical things.

Just ask Jon Erik Hexum . He was an actor on a 60s series who stuck a blank gun to his head goofing around and blew his brains out.

In Jeff Cooper's writings he relates a situation where a guy down the block from him took an '06 blank stuck it in his rifle then stuck the muzzle in his mouth. When Cooper arrived he said the only thing left of the head was part of the brain stem where it attached to the spine. The rest had been blown away by the high pressure gasses.

You read about houses being blown up by gas explosions where nothing blows but the gas inside the house.

THAT HUGE infusion of hot gas cannot be good for a human body.
Been there, done that, and seen it many times on others. Never noticed any pronounced effects from muzzle blasts entering the body.
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Old 07-26-2019, 02:48 PM
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I thought all the bullets involved with the case were magic bullets.
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Old 07-26-2019, 03:45 PM
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Dang I am getting old.....I saw Ruby shooting Oswald....live

One thing that has always made me wonder....Oswald qualified as a Marine "sharpshooter" with a Garand...and if you track down the ad that he supposedly ordered the Cacarno from...the same add had Garands for sale.....the range of the shooting was close enough for him to shoot eight rounds in less time than he could have with the Cacarno
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Old 07-26-2019, 04:05 PM
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So thus guy defects or at least moves to Russia giving up his US citizenship. Then he gets to come back - no questions ask. Next he gets a job on the open car presidential tour route. Finally he is the first live on TV murder victim. The guy that shot him dies of a extremely rapid cancer before he can be brought to trial.

Nothing to see here, arkanside hadn't been invented yet.
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Old 07-26-2019, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by .455_Hunter View Post
The standard pressure .38 Special 158 gr Lead Round Nose is not the pathetic and impotent creature as made out by so many "experts". In soft targets, it penetrates deep and can be just as fatal as the newest and greatest JHP.

Here is wound track for typical .38 Special 158 LRN.

The 180-degree "flip" commencing at about 6 inches penetration and continuing base-first is normal.
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Old 07-26-2019, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by rustednail View Post
Dang I am getting old.....I saw Ruby shooting Oswald....live

One thing that has always made me wonder....Oswald qualified as a Marine "sharpshooter" with a Garand...and if you track down the ad that he supposedly ordered the Cacarno from...the same add had Garands for sale.....the range of the shooting was close enough for him to shoot eight rounds in less time than he could have with the Cacarno
He probably couldn't afford the Garand. He was seriously broke. All the time. He was poorly educated and not a pleasant person to work around so I've read. Good money making jobs didn't seek him out. And he would never let Marina work or even learn to speak English. They got a lot of charity help from the Russian immigrant community. And the Cacarno was most likely easier to scope. And he didn't buy the rifle just to shoot Kennedy. Kennedy was just a target that fell in his lap. Thats why he only had 4 rounds of ammo left. When the route was listed in the paper he didn't have time to buy more ammo. Remember he didn't drive. He had to rely on others to ferry him around.

I said I wasn't I wasn't going to get sucked into the discussion but here I am. Its an interesting subject to talk about but no one will ever answer all the questions that can be raised by a million people.

But I still recommend the book Case Closed. If you have read the others then one more won't hurt you. And you might like it. And the best part is NOT Kennedy. He is almost a footnote to the story. The real story is Oswald and the life he lived as a youth. IIRC he went to 23 different elementary schools. His mother was as nutty as he was. Maybe nuttier.

Jack Ruby was also a very interesting character. Maybe the most interesting of all.

And then there is the part where the FBI bugged the Mafia in New Orleans and listened to them try to figure out who killed Kennedy.

Now some side stories. My uncle was a FT Worth cop and when Oswald was autopsied he took the autopsie pics for Ft Worth. He brought copies of the pics by our house and I got to see them. Oswald gutted. Oswald stitched up.

Then my uncle was involved in a shooting and killed a man. This was during all the Detroit and Watts riots. So they put my uncle in the jail as a jailer with no name tag. Then of all things he was assigned to guard Oswalds grave after the first tombstone was stolen. Something to get him off the street. We were told if anyone called the house asking if we knew Joe T. we were to say no. Of course our family is the only family in the U.S. with our last name.

Then a few years later he pulled over a speeder who went berserk on him. He radioed in who he had. Maguerite Oswald. He didn't recognize who she was. They told him to cut her lose RIGHT NOW and don't give her a ticket or any any warnings. Just get her down the road.
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Old 07-26-2019, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by hatchet jack View Post
He probably couldn't afford the Garand. He was seriously broke. All the time. He was poorly educated and not a pleasant person to work around so I've read. Good money making jobs didn't seek him out. And he would never let Marina work or even learn to speak English. They got a lot of charity help from the Russian immigrant community. And the Cacarno was most likely easier to scope. And he didn't buy the rifle just to shoot Kennedy. Kennedy was just a target that fell in his lap. Thats why he only had 4 rounds of ammo left. When the route was listed in the paper he didn't have time to buy more ammo. Remember he didn't drive. He had to rely on others to ferry him around.



I said I wasn't I wasn't going to get sucked into the discussion but here I am. Its an interesting subject to talk about but no one will ever answer all the questions that can be raised by a million people.



But I still recommend the book Case Closed. If you have read the others then one more won't hurt you. And you might like it. And the best part is NOT Kennedy. He is almost a footnote to the story. The real story is Oswald and the life he lived as a youth. IIRC he went to 23 different elementary schools. His mother was as nutty as he was. Maybe nuttier.



Jack Ruby was also a very interesting character. Maybe the most interesting of all.



And then there is the part where the FBI bugged the Mafia in New Orleans and listened to them try to figure out who killed Kennedy.



Now some side stories. My uncle was a FT Worth cop and when Oswald was autopsied he took the autopsie pics for Ft Worth. He brought copies of the pics by our house and I got to see them. Oswald gutted. Oswald stitched up.



Then my uncle was involved in a shooting and killed a man. This was during all the Detroit and Watts riots. So they put my uncle in the jail as a jailer with no name tag. Then of all things he was assigned to guard Oswalds grave after the first tombstone was stolen. Something to get him off the street. We were told if anyone called the house asking if we knew Joe T. we were to say no. Of course our family is the only family in the U.S. with our last name.



Then a few years later he pulled over a speeder who went berserk on him. He radioed in who he had. Maguerite Oswald. He didn't recognize who she was. They told him to cut her lose RIGHT NOW and don't give her a ticket or any any warnings. Just get her down the road.
So what is your last name?



And why let Maguerite go? Doesn't sound like a very law abiding thing to do.

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Old 07-26-2019, 08:21 PM
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[QUOTE=ForgedInTheFlame;19670386]So what is your last name?



And why let Maguerite go? Doesn't sound like a very law abiding thing to do.

Last name, Tiroff. My family was Russian until around the 10th century when they migrated to Lichtenstein Germany where they stayed until they landed in Vernon Tx around 1902. The original name spelling in Russia was Tire IIRC.

He was told to let her go. By that time she was being harassed and hounded by the press and law enforcement after her son did his deed. A speeder around here is not unknown. So not worth the potential fallout of being accused of coming down on a very troubled woman.

My uncle involved in the shooting of Earl Gratz was named A.J (Joe) Tiroff and my son can google this shooting and find the press reports but I never can. His full name was Alvin Joseph Tiroff Jr. He has been deceased for around 15 years now. He died with me on an Elk hunt on the side of a mountain near Gunnison Colorado. You haven't arrived until you have had a dead man in a hunting camp. Its very bad. His cop friends named him The Mad Russian".

And for those who want to know. He used a S&W model 15 loaded with issue round nose lead bullets just like Ruby used. One shot and the guy dropped on the ground. If anyone wants to here it I will type the story.
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Old 07-26-2019, 08:56 PM
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WHEN I was working the SD waaaayyy back when, one of the deps shot a guy coming out of a commercial burglary. He shot the guy just as he was running around the back of the store. The guy disappeared around the corner about 150ft away.

AS the dep was calling for backup the guy he shot came back around the corner, walked all the way back to the dep and then dropped DRT.
They found the bullet, 158gr RNL .38spec, lodged in the guy's left bra cup. (YES, you read that right.)

Figure the guy ran and walked over 300ft after being hit in the heart.
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Old 07-26-2019, 09:04 PM
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Figure the guy ran and walked over 300ft after being hit in the heart.
Not at all surprising. Unless its a CNS hit people don't go down rapidly unless they decide to.

Or animals for that matter, one of the reasons people hunting dangerous game choose heavy deep penetrating rounds to break down bones, tear out nerves and basically break the machine rather than just waiting for it to decide to die.
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Old 07-27-2019, 12:24 AM
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Not at all surprising. Unless its a CNS hit people don't go down rapidly unless they decide to.
Exactly.

Which is yet another reason the famous "one shot stop" books and "studies" are such rubbish. (Besides the whole completely fabricated data reasons...)


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Old 07-28-2019, 09:01 AM
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Our Great President, President Trump already released the "Kennedy Files". These files have been available for over 2 years!!! The lame stream fake media didn't even talk about them. These files have proof of who really killed JFK and that Hitler was alive and well living South America well into the 1960!!!!

look it up, the truth is out there. Thanks to President Trump
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Old 07-28-2019, 09:17 AM
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Our Great President, President Trump already released the "Kennedy Files". These files have been available for over 2 years!!! The lame stream fake media didn't even talk about them. These files have proof of who really killed JFK and that Hitler was alive and well living South America well into the 1960!!!!

look it up, the truth is out there. Thanks to President Trump
He selectively released some of them. They didnt release "all" of them.
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Old 07-28-2019, 10:38 AM
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Default jack ruby's ammo type?

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Originally Posted by HappyinID View Post
Oswald's 91/38 Carcano was mounted with a 4X scope, which he paid an additional seven dollars for.

I've been in that window in Dallas. An ex-Marine with a sharpshooting badge could make the shot's Oswald did at the less than 100 yard range's. There's also the luck factor. He only had to do it once.

This is correct... a lot of people discredit the Carcano, the round, as well as Oswald’s capability to get rounds on target. His shot is hard to duplicate, because people have to get it exact. Oswald was just aiming at Kennedy.

If I remember correctly, the shots were between 60 and 90 yards. Whether or not it could be done with that scope... I give you this.



And with the ballistics of the 6.5mm Carcano, connecting with either irons or the scope wouldn’t be that hard. Accuracy complaints today are related to shooting bullets that are too small for the bore. Correct bullets... it is a very good cartridge. Also need to remember... the 6.5mm was the “5.56mm” of the World Wars. Everything else was either .30-06, 8mm, or equivalent.



This is mine... did not build it, but it is pretty close to Oswald’s. The scope is correct, but there is a slight external difference with the eyepiece (production difference, but same scope). I got hooked on Carcanos with the Type I that I found at a gunshow... and this one sort of fell into my lap. Holding/shooting the gun, you really do get a different perspective on that day. I used to think something else occurred than the Warren Commission’s report. Don’t feel that way anymore... especially with the research I’ve done, post acquiring the rifle.

I don’t have any info on Ruby’s gun or that ammo... but I do want to get a copy of it. That I feel would fit in with that rifle and this...



Victory revolver, converted and shorten like Oswald’s. The front sight is different, but again... it is pretty close to his. Definitely capable to work in the distance of the Tippit shooting.
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Old 07-28-2019, 11:07 AM
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This is correct... a lot of people discredit the Carcano, the round, as well as Oswald’s capability to get rounds on target. His shot is hard to duplicate, because people have to get it exact. Oswald was just aiming at Kennedy.

If I remember correctly, the shots were between 60 and 90 yards. Whether or not it could be done with that scope... I give you this.



And with the ballistics of the 6.5mm Carcano, connecting with either irons or the scope wouldn’t be that hard. Accuracy complaints today are related to shooting bullets that are too small for the bore. Correct bullets... it is a very good cartridge. Also need to remember... the 6.5mm was the “5.56mm” of the World Wars. Everything else was either .30-06, 8mm, or equivalent.



This is mine... did not build it, but it is pretty close to Oswald’s. The scope is correct, but there is a slight external difference with the eyepiece (production difference, but same scope). I got hooked on Carcanos with the Type I that I found at a gunshow... and this one sort of fell into my lap. Holding/shooting the gun, you really do get a different perspective on that day. I used to think something else occurred than the Warren Commission’s report. Don’t feel that way anymore... especially with the research I’ve done, post acquiring the rifle.

I don’t have any info on Ruby’s gun or that ammo... but I do want to get a copy of it. That I feel would fit in with that rifle and this...



Victory revolver, converted and shorten like Oswald’s. The front sight is different, but again... it is pretty close to his. Definitely capable to work in the distance of the Tippit shooting.
What is the Tippit shooting?



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