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Old 07-27-2019, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Herd Sniper View Post
Asymmetric warfare only works when the smaller force is not limited by rules of engagement and the larger or better force is handicapped by stupid or silly rules of engagement. The communists in Viet Nam did NOT win their war. That war was given to them by American Democrat politicians out of Washington, D.C.

If it hadn't of been for cowardly, treasonous Democrats, the communists would have lost that war. The American military won every major engagement in that war only to have the Democrats give it away at the end. This is why so many combat veterans despise Washington Democrats to this day.
The unfortunate result of this was that many of these Congress critters came in during the Vietnam era and are still there with their ideals. They are still influencing others every chance they get. They were part of a group when the nation was extremely divided, the blame for their utter lack of a backbone to allow our military to win the war was placed upon the shoulders of the returning Vet who was just trying to stay alive and come home. They were very good at being able to influence people (I use that term people loosely) to point fingers because they didn't burn their draft cards or scurry off to Canada leaving their fellow Americans to shoulder their burden. People seem to forget the likes of Hanoi Jane and the flower children who just sat around wanting handouts because they were not going to "Work for the man"

It's not a whole lot different right now with the political division. Anyone who thinks that this Bernie Sanders style of a Democrat Socialist is nothing more than a push towards communism is fooling themselves. The political pendulum swings backwards and forwards but along with it drags a bloody axe. That axe seems to have the largest effect upon those who love this nation and are wanting nothing more than to be able to make a honest living and be left the heck alone.
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Old 07-27-2019, 03:05 AM
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Successful guerrilla movements (insurgencies) normally feature three critical things:

Sanctuary (cross-border neutral territory or in-country remote/tough terrain the opponent cannot successfully operate or maneuver within at will; Safe Space for the insurgents... where they cannot be decisively targeted, isolated, or defeated)

Examples: Cambodia & Laos (and their borders/ports) in relation to the territory of former South Vietnam; present day Pakistan and its border with Afghanistan provide nearly unassailable geographic depth for Mujaheddin forces to operate in. During the US Revolutionary War, American forces had the vastness of a lightly populated frontier & rural seaboard to achieve Sanctuary. They had more landscape (to retreat into) than the British had troops available to occupy & control.

Sponsorship (direct or indirect support from sympathetic foreign governments or entities; support can include financial, political, military, intelligence, logistical, or media messaging aid; aid may be clandestine, covert, or overt)

Examples: WWII German Occupied France/Benelux & insurgency sponsorship provided by Allies; Northern Alliance Tribes vs Taliban government of Afghanistan circa 2001; Warsaw Pact & Chinese support to the Viet Cong, Pathet Lao, Khmer Rouge, and main force NVA during the Vietnam War. France Sponsoring the American rebel government & military during the US War of Independence (late in the game... but still decisively).

Support of the Populace (just enough to continuously supply political legitimacy, manpower, logistical wherewithal, and timely intelligence to the Auxiliary, Underground, and Guerrilla components of an Insurgency)

Examples: US Revolutionary War vs. UK (insurgents had just enough... and won); Che Guevara in Bolivia (did not have it... and lost). Guerrilla warfare lead-up to the eventual Israeli War of Independence vs British colonial occupation forces... achieved through a combination of political maneuvering and guerrilla warfare...based upon a strategically implemented program of cultural immigration. Most of the Jewish population was on board with the program.

Sanctuary, Sponsorship, Support of the Populace...

Absent those three things, few insurgencies achieve much.

Last edited by Astronomy; 07-27-2019 at 11:57 AM.. Reason: typo
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Old 07-27-2019, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Justme11 View Post
One man's asymmetric freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

The methods are pretty similar. Gruesome.

Usually they have a sponsor with deep pockets and access to weapons and technology.
Usually the sponsor remains somewhat hidden.


The American revolutionaries were sponsored by France. Ben Franklin was very important to the American revolution because he was able to convince France to support the effort.
The Afghans were sponsored by the US against the USSR.
The Syrian mess had everyone's fingers in the pie. Russia, US, Iran, probably Israel.
Venezuela seems to have the US aiding the Guaido side and Russia, China and Cuba favoring Maduro.

Then there is the Lebanon mess.

Without their sponsors, all of those "rebellions" would not last very long as they could be encircled, embargoed, kept under siege, cut off from resupply of anything until they gave up or were otherwise defeated.
Yup.
As long as the money continues to flow,
the fighting will not stop.
Mags emptied by indiscriminate spraying
tells us that money/ammo is not in short supply.

The Minutemen shooting from behind trees must have
been hated as much as we abhor IEDs.

The US has become an expert in economic warfare.
Look at the devastation caused by long-term sanctions.

The fall of the USSR can be called an economic warfare victory.
China is going down that same road. They don't need an aircraft carrier.
The vast amount of money they are spending on new islands
and African infrastructure should be spent on their people.

China, Russia, N. Korea, Syria, Iran.
So much wasted money on weapons when their people just want
jobs and the freedom to raise their families.
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Old 07-27-2019, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by LoveLife View Post
The US has become an expert in economic warfare.
Look at the devastation caused by long-term sanctions.

The fall of the USSR can be called an economic warfare victory.
China is going down that same road. They don't need an aircraft carrier.
The vast amount of money they are spending on new islands
and African infrastructure should be spent on their people.
Love life is right about economics. There are four elements of national power that countries use to achieve their goals: diplomatic, information, military and economic. Some also include legal as a national power. That's how nations do asymmetrical warfare.

The US is good at the economic battles but not as good at the information. There are countries (those with globalist agendas and our competitors) out there whose goal is to divide the US through delegitimization democracy and polarization & fragmentation of society through impossible scenarios, fake news, and divisive causes. We have success in info ops as away games but don't do so good at defending against it.

Ever stop to think about what's happening in the US and how it's all tied together? Who is pulling the puppet strings of the liberal left? Who is controlling the news? Who is creating the things such as kneeling for the national anthem, vagina suits, etc? Who it's funding it? Who is creating an army of domestic terrorists? Who is putting wackadoddles in power? It isn't the drain the swamp, patriotic republicans nor is it the old school democrat next door who believes in trickle down economics and retrenchment but also freedom and democracy. The anti-American globalists who want to control the population and rape the nations wealth are fighting like they have never fought before and are working with countries whose have national goals that compete with ours.
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Old 07-27-2019, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4X4 View Post
The unfortunate result of this was that many of these Congress critters came in during the Vietnam era and are still there with their ideals. They are still influencing others every chance they get. They were part of a group when the nation was extremely divided, the blame for their utter lack of a backbone to allow our military to win the war was placed upon the shoulders of the returning Vet who was just trying to stay alive and come home. They were very good at being able to influence people (I use that term people loosely) to point fingers because they didn't burn their draft cards or scurry off to Canada leaving their fellow Americans to shoulder their burden. People seem to forget the likes of Hanoi Jane and the flower children who just sat around wanting handouts because they were not going to "Work for the man"

It's not a whole lot different right now with the political division. Anyone who thinks that this Bernie Sanders style of a Democrat Socialist is nothing more than a push towards communism is fooling themselves. The political pendulum swings backwards and forwards but along with it drags a bloody axe. That axe seems to have the largest effect upon those who love this nation and are wanting nothing more than to be able to make a honest living and be left the heck alone.
What kind of a coward would burn their draft card, or escape responsibility, and the call of duty, and flee to Canada?

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Old 07-27-2019, 11:08 AM
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What kind of a coward would burn their draft card, or escape responsibility, and the call of duty, and flee to Canada?

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk
Many did that because of several reasons. Many believed it was an unjust war and did not want to be a part of it so they did things like that. Others were just afraid of being sent to war. There was a huge political divide at the time with massive street riots and civil unrest. The war in Vietnam was really ramping up along with the lottery draft system. Many were getting deferments from service because they were in or could attend college. As a result the lions share of the burden of the draft fell on blue collar or poor Americans. The flower children/hippies were into their age of enlightenment. Traditional ideas such as working, raising a family, buying a house were all "Establishment" ideas. Many wanted to sit around and smoke dope begging for food. Many of them saw it as being part of the system or working for "the man." Communes were cropping up all over the place which could be very dangerous places to be if you weren't in the hierarchy. These memories still resonate with most Americans who are over 50 right about now. Old battle lines are still very much drawn. There are still a lot of political figureheads and entertainers that were very much part of the anti-establishment movements.
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Old 07-27-2019, 02:03 PM
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What kind of a coward would burn their draft card, or escape responsibility, and the call of duty, and flee to Canada?

Today you call them liberal/socialist/Democrats. What it really boiled down to was they were cowards. Nothing more than cowards. The anti-war movement encouraged people to be cowards and many fell for it. The monies used to finance the anti-war movement in those days came out of Russia, through Scandinavia to Canada and then through phony corporations until it got to communist party groups, anti-war groups and some of the ACLU groups.

Back in the day, if your parents weren't rich, politically connected, attorneys, judges or important corporate heads, you would be drafted to serve in the military forces. So between draft boards being corrupt, Democrats being stupid and influence from outside of our nation, everything about the draft was wrong. There was nothing fair or honest about the draft at all. Rich kids and so on got deferments while poor kids served, got maimed and died in combat.

About the only people who served in combat were those who were patriotic, poor, brave or unlucky. Before I went up for my physical, I had a doctor tell me that he would give me a pill to take, just before my draft physical, that would guarantee that I wouldn't pass my medical exam. That's how deep things went back in those days when it came to the draft and draft boards. Even the nicest of people who meant well were trying to take care of people that they liked to keep them out of the war in those days.
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Old 07-27-2019, 10:58 PM
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If you really want to understand asymmetric warfare, study how snipers operate. One sniper can tie down a whole column of men and vehicles for hours using the right techniques and properly placed explosives. The thing is about snipers is that they think ahead of their entire shooting situation. Many work from their exit plan backwards to their insertion point. Yes, backwards planning is pretty common in some of the best sniper shooting concepts.

Any way, a sniper can engage targets in a variety of ways using cover and concealment to his favor. He shoots, falls back and then gets ready to engage the targets again. He selects his kill zone with great deliberation. A narrow pass, a bridge or a narrow highway elevated above rice paddies makes for an excellent kill zone. You engage what looks to be a leader or senior sergeant and then wait for everybody to run to cover. After every shot you relocate so that nobody gets a good fix on your position. One shot from each place. You keep doing this over and over until you find yourself in too much danger or have run out of ammo. I guess that you might stop when you run out of targets. Running out of targets has happened a couple of times but not many.

So snipers are pretty much the best symbol of asymmetric warfare that there is for now. The military often refers to snipers as being "a force multiplier."


I agree with everything you said. Unless the sniper is engaging an opponent with no ROE, access to artillery and air support. Then he's a big hole in the ground.
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Old 07-28-2019, 09:26 PM
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I agree with everything you said. Unless the sniper is engaging an opponent with no ROE, access to artillery and air support. Then he's a big hole in the ground.

Snipers know when to get out of the area before becoming an ink spot. The real threat to snipers are helicopters that can spot them from 5 miles away with FLIR cameras and engage them without the sniper even knowing that the helicopter is there at all. That's where American counter-sniper operations excel in their performance. We have those helicopters and electronic gear to get them. American snipers are trained to avoid those kinds of counter-sniper situations just in case we end up going against the Chinese or Russian militaries.
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Old 07-29-2019, 07:26 PM
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friendly question, not sure if youre allowed to answer, if not, i understand: what do US (& maybe other counties') snipers do to avoid the helicopter FLIR & other detection? Thank you
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Old 07-30-2019, 06:18 AM
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friendly question, not sure if youre allowed to answer, if not, i understand: what do US (& maybe other counties') snipers do to avoid the helicopter FLIR & other detection? Thank you
There are fabrics that block IR emissions, also thermal blankets even whole Ghillie suits made of it. Snipers are known for operating in awful physical environments and this includes the spotter when they work with one.
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Old 07-30-2019, 04:45 PM
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When snipers work in teams, they all keep watch for, actually scan around for, helicopters and for other potential threats. Night vision scopes used by snipers will also help detect various infrared light generators and lighting elements.

When artillery and/or mortars sets up or gets ready to fire at night, the gun crews need to use flashlights to set their gunsights, turn on the lights on their aiming stakes and light up their plotting boards. When the crew members come and go from the Fire Direction Center you can often catch glimpses of light from those areas. In other words, snipers are observant people who can, sometimes, sense or see these locations from where the mortar or artillery groups will be working and beat feet before any barrage comes down upon them, the snipers.

The key to any sniper's survival are his instincts, hearing, common sense and his eyes. If things do not seem right, snipers will move out in a New York heartbeat. Experience also is a key instrument for survival when talking about snipers who have been doing the job longer than a couple of months.
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Old 07-30-2019, 06:17 PM
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Thanks guys really appreciate it! i read alot of books about the military, mostly vietnam, snipers, SOG, LRRPS, & the like.... scary stuff right there! i also read some about same types of soldiers in Iraq & afghanistan. i couldnt imagine being in those situations, and its helped me develop an even greater appreciation of those that go into combat.

peace on you & yours!
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Old 08-01-2019, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Jlrhiner View Post
I think that during an asymmetrical war one of the key elements is commitment. If you study the ones we've seen in the past, the asymmetrical conflict can only exist when you're fighting a limited conflict from one perspective, and the other side is totally committed. During 'Nam, our soldiers were hindered by a bureaucracy that defined the limits of engagements. The NVA, and in turn the VC, did not have those limitations.

The concept of "limited warfare" is very, very flawed. Anytime you are fighting an enemy and you have to abide by rules, you have one foot on the slippery slope of defeat. We've seen this time and time again since Korea. And victory doesn't have to manifest itself as defeating ones foe's in a conventional battle. For asymmetrical warfare, those employing those tactics need only to outlast their opponent.

Can you defeat an opponent who engages in asymmetrical warfare? Of course you can. But the casualty count will be high, the press will be bad, and those that can quarter-back from their rocking chairs will condemn those that have to actually do it. Words like "brutal", "devastating", "horrible", "intolerant", "racist", and "cruel" will be used to describe the methods necessary to defeat those using the exact same tactics against you.

I listen to folks argue all the time that you "can't fight an army of fanatics". Bullpuckey. We've done it before. The Pacific theatre during WW2. But we as a nation were totally committed to defeating our adversaries. Thats the level of commitment necessary to defeat an opponent regardless of the tactics they employ.

Just my opinion, but there's an awful lot of history that points in this direction.
^^^This sums it up pretty well^^^

If I had a dollar, for every person we stopped on horseback in Afghansistan, that we KNEW was a "combatant". I would be a few hundred dollars richer.

Since they were not shooting at us, there was little we could do.
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Old 08-01-2019, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Herd Sniper View Post
I agree with everything you said. Unless the sniper is engaging an opponent with no ROE, access to artillery and air support. Then he's a big hole in the ground.

Snipers know when to get out of the area before becoming an ink spot. The real threat to snipers are helicopters that can spot them from 5 miles away with FLIR cameras and engage them without the sniper even knowing that the helicopter is there at all. That's where American counter-sniper operations excel in their performance. We have those helicopters and electronic gear to get them. American snipers are trained to avoid those kinds of counter-sniper situations just in case we end up going against the Chinese or Russian militaries.
Out of curiousity, when was the last time a functional gun ship, equipped with FLIR, deployed against American troops?

I did 6 tours between Afghanistan and Iraq, with the USMC and than a couple of hitches in North Africa as a PMC. I have never seen a gunship fitted with FLIR, that attacked American forces or assets.

Not saying it cant happen and other militaries dont have the capabilities, but I dont think there is a documented case of it.

A snipers worst fear is being taken alive. I was not a sniper, but I know a couple of Scout Snipers and being caught alive, is what kept them up at night.
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Old 08-02-2019, 07:27 PM
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Out of curiousity, when was the last time a functional gun ship, equipped with FLIR, deployed against American troops?

I did 6 tours between Afghanistan and Iraq, with the USMC and than a couple of hitches in North Africa as a PMC. I have never seen a gunship fitted with FLIR, that attacked American forces or assets.

Not saying it cant happen and other militaries dont have the capabilities, but I dont think there is a documented case of it.
.
i dont know much, just from reading many, many books about the military, most from Vietnam, but some "modern" from Iraq and Afghanistan, but it begs the question: wouldnt snipers, during training and war games be "hunted" by US & ally FLIR equipped helicopters to make sure they are able to do it during the real thing?

if im off, please let me know, like i said, im not military and have no expertise or training. thank you
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Old 08-06-2019, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herd Sniper View Post
When snipers work in teams, they all keep watch for, actually scan around for, helicopters and for other potential threats. Night vision scopes used by snipers will also help detect various infrared light generators and lighting elements.

When artillery and/or mortars sets up or gets ready to fire at night, the gun crews need to use flashlights to set their gunsights, turn on the lights on their aiming stakes and light up their plotting boards. When the crew members come and go from the Fire Direction Center you can often catch glimpses of light from those areas. In other words, snipers are observant people who can, sometimes, sense or see these locations from where the mortar or artillery groups will be working and beat feet before any barrage comes down upon them, the snipers.

The key to any sniper's survival are his instincts, hearing, common sense and his eyes. If things do not seem right, snipers will move out in a New York heartbeat. Experience also is a key instrument for survival when talking about snipers who have been doing the job longer than a couple of months.
Present day USMC artillery (155's) is computer controlled and GPS targeted. Forward observer provides GPS coordinates of target (digitally) to fire control, Fire control adds weather information (winds, etc) to data stream to guns. They are very good at getting first round on target. Very little light required at gun site.

Counter battery fire is a danger but our more recent opponents apparently have little technology in that area and we do.
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