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Trade Deal Dead: Trump Cranks Up Tariffs On China SurvivalOfTheFit General Discussion 24 05-10-2019 09:19 PM
Does Trump not know how tariff's work? lucky strike Political News and Discussion 52 01-19-2019 06:57 PM
China about to blink in the face of tariffs txprep Political News and Discussion 387 12-15-2018 04:14 PM
The EU Blinks - Offers U.S. Concessions to Avoid Trade War Batko10 Political News and Discussion 107 08-12-2018 09:16 AM

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Old 05-13-2019, 10:12 PM
bugbor bugbor is offline
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I understand that someone always pays.
However, I would argue that education is a common good
for the society. Just as we all socialistically pay for
road signs and stop lights, we are willing to do so
because it's a common benefit. Heck, there are roads I've never driven on
that have signs I helped pay for!

So, if we uplift income levels via education beyond high school,
we could expect tax revenues to increase.
To my mind, there's a hell of a large difference between education and lettin' the inmates run' the asylum, as seems to be happening more and more these days in the halls of "higher education" where feelings are more important than facts. Somehow, a degree of higher learning has become a talisman, that will somehow mean that you're automatically worth more to an employer, or a "better" person. The old saw about college grads earning more in a lifetime was true 'cause they were more likely to enter higher paying professions, be they medicine, law, engineering, accounting or whatever. How anybody can get through school with the average amount of debt from student loans these days, when they've spent all that money on a field that'll never justify the amount borrowed, makes me think that the practicality of such a school system is sorely lacking. As for road signs and such, Kommiefornia had plenty of those, tellin' us just how much they're spending on the next five miles of improved freeway, but as soon as you exit and hit the rotten pavement of the city streets and county roads you get the feeling that the cost of those sings could go a long way towards fixin' the pot holes that rattle your teeth.
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Old 05-13-2019, 10:23 PM
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The government pays the tuition fees, same thing in Scotland for example.
And the government gets its money from me. And my wife. And my neighbors. Tuition can be paid by those who take the courses.
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Old 05-13-2019, 10:40 PM
rriley rriley is offline
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And the government gets its money from me. And my wife. And my neighbors. Tuition can be paid by those who take the courses.
Could be and should be but American students now owe $1.56 Trillion in student loan debt, much of which is delinquent, and the Dems are saying that this debt should be forgiven.

And ... some of the colleges don't even need to charge tuition, Harvard, for example, has an endowment fund that is now about $38 Billion. The earnings on that fund could pay for all their students tuition.

Oh, one more thing. Since the government guarantees student debt, thanks to Obama, universities have no incentive to encourage students to pay their debt or to minimize university costs. The President of Columbia University made $3,389,917 in the most recent year for which numbers are available and Shirley Ann Jackson, president of Rensselaer Poly, made $7,000,000.
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:18 AM
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I was told by many conservative that China would blink soon. That was last year. I never thought I see the day when conservatives would be put in a situation where they would have to defend relying on revenue coming from tariffs. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't a tariff a short term solution meant to push another country to free trade instead of becoming a trade policy...
Night is day and black is white. Conservativism is so far askew it once meant, it's unrecognizable. From the 2nd Amendment explainers to the decorum of the office, everything is being explained away. Hell just look at the increasing debt and deficit that real tears were shed for oh, just about 8 years ago. Those are all dried up too.
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Old 05-14-2019, 04:50 AM
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I was told by many conservative that China would blink soon. That was last year. I never thought I see the day when conservatives would be put in a situation where they would have to defend relying on revenue coming from tariffs. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't a tariff a short term solution meant to push another country to free trade instead of becoming a trade policy...
Night is day and black is white. Conservativism is so far askew it once meant, it's unrecognizable. From the 2nd Amendment explainers to the decorum of the office, everything is being explained away. Hell just look at the increasing debt and deficit that real tears were shed for oh, just about 8 years ago. Those are all dried up too.
In more ways than one, conservatism is eroding from its traditional roots.
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Old 05-14-2019, 09:41 PM
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I agree. We have shipped not only our economic base, but our tax base, to China, and elsewhere, and replaced it with welfare programs and deficit borrowing.

In order for the US to remain a world power we have to have a strong middle class, making a decent living...not $10 an hour jobs. The only way we will ever have that again is by bringing those jobs back here...no matter what the cost is. Yes, in the short term there will be pain...higher prices on TVs, computers, etc etc. In the long term...20, 30, 50 years...we will benefit from those tariffs by recreating our economic/tax base.

If nothing else, we'll stop sending our collective wealth, one I-gadget at a time, to a country that would just assume blow us off the face of the planet.
If workers are paid $20 an hour to assemble led lightbulbs here in the US and the lightbulbs are priced at $12 each then who is making more money really?

All this talk about higher wages and a strong middle class just ignore that if Jim Bob is getting paid $28 an hour to assemble the PCM for the Dodge 1500 that cost will be directly added to the retail cost of the vehicle.
Add on all these new middle class workers wages for all the little bits and pieces of that truck and itís now a $120,000 truck.
So is Joe Middle Class really making any more money when he is paying that for his new truck?
What about when he buys his domestically produced 65Ē tv for $2200?


Everyone harps about the middle class, but they wonít like paying for it, because when it comes time to pay for these goods it will become apparent real quick that just because Joe makes more, he still doesnít have any money for some reason...
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Old 05-18-2019, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Israel Putnam View Post
If workers are paid $20 an hour to assemble led lightbulbs here in the US and the lightbulbs are priced at $12 each then who is making more money really?

All this talk about higher wages and a strong middle class just ignore that if Jim Bob is getting paid $28 an hour to assemble the PCM for the Dodge 1500 that cost will be directly added to the retail cost of the vehicle.
Add on all these new middle class workers wages for all the little bits and pieces of that truck and itís now a $120,000 truck.
So is Joe Middle Class really making any more money when he is paying that for his new truck?
What about when he buys his domestically produced 65Ē tv for $2200?


Everyone harps about the middle class, but they wonít like paying for it, because when it comes time to pay for these goods it will become apparent real quick that just because Joe makes more, he still doesnít have any money for some reason...
I assume the workers assembling lightbulbs are actually operating a machine that
puts together thousands per hour. If we assume 1,000/hour and the worker gets $20...
We have ( $20 / 1000 bulbs ) = 2 cents per bulb.

Machine assembly is going to be the case in China as well.
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Old 05-19-2019, 11:56 AM
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China is saying they will fight this trade war til the end. I remember several SB members saying China would blink quickly because of the impact to their economy. While true, they still have options that we failed to take away as I kept advocating by cutting them off from other markets like the EU. Instead we have given them options. Now they appear to be entrenched.

However, on the flip side the US is beginning to realize some it’s mistakes as evident by now trying to solidify the North American trade market by getting rid of the steel tariffs to Mexico and Canada. Those are promising steps and again sheds light on the handicap protectionists policies brings on our economic objectives. In the mean time, American farmers will continue to suffer and their own loyalty to this administration will be tested. Time will tell.

This is just more proof that you can’t always be a bull in a China shop no pun intended. Some of these matters require a more strategic approach and sometimes blind loyalty can come back to bite you where it hurts. The key issue here will be how the global supply chains will re align themselves. The game is not over yet. It’s half time. Hopefully, the smarter heads can prevail.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/finance...191648053.html
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Old 05-19-2019, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Israel Putnam View Post
If workers are paid $20 an hour to assemble led lightbulbs here in the US and the lightbulbs are priced at $12 each then who is making more money really?

All this talk about higher wages and a strong middle class just ignore that if Jim Bob is getting paid $28 an hour to assemble the PCM for the Dodge 1500 that cost will be directly added to the retail cost of the vehicle.
Add on all these new middle class workers wages for all the little bits and pieces of that truck and itís now a $120,000 truck.

So is Joe Middle Class really making any more money when he is paying that for his new truck?
What about when he buys his domestically produced 65Ē tv for $2200?


Everyone harps about the middle class, but they wonít like paying for it, because when it comes time to pay for these goods it will become apparent real quick that just because Joe makes more, he still doesnít have any money for some reason...
Certainly increased wages are contributing to higher vehicle prices.
Other reasons include government-required features.
On top of all that, though, is what you might call "creeping luxury."
For example, all cars seem to have power windows now.
They all seem to have remote locking.

I'm old enough to remember when there was such a thing as a
full-size stripper car. Heck, dealers would advertise them a bait to get you in the store.
They'd be painted an ugly color, and undesirable compared to the fancy ones,
but there they were. Not enough profit in those...
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Old 05-19-2019, 04:47 PM
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There is not going to be a trade deal with China unless they give in on all Trump's demands - which they won't. As a result tariffs of the promised 25% will be invoked, maybe permanently, maybe followed by tariffing other cheap third world places, maybe followed by 50%. Good.

China is like thieves who steal your stuff and then make their money selling it back to you in a pawn shop. No new jobs are created, no increase in the hourly wage. You get your stuff back with a transfer of money from you to the thieves. Like a tax.

Tariffs won't stop the stealing but will raise the prices of the selling-back part. With higher market prices US manufacturing will step in to the gap. Labor will be demanded and wages will increase. Prices will rise, interest rates will rise to normal levels.

Yes business is right that tariffs are a tax on Americans but we are already being taxed by thievery. At least with tariffs the money stays here.
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Old 05-19-2019, 06:27 PM
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Considering that US tariffs are historically some of the lowest in the world not to mention China having LONG benefited from "most favored nation" trade status, pressuring the Chinese to lower their tariffs on US goods is not a bad thing. Chinese tariffs are on average 3.5% where as the US is 1.6%. Not hard to understand the trade imbalance.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...tions-history/
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Old 05-19-2019, 07:02 PM
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Tariffs won't stop the stealing but will raise the prices of the selling-back part. With higher market prices US manufacturing will step in to the gap. Labor will be demanded and wages will increase. Prices will rise, interest rates will rise to normal levels.
No, no they won't. U.S. consumers will pay more for their goods though, which will disproportionately hurt the poor. The Chinese aren't going to cave, and I doubt Trump will too. Things will just escalate and get uglier and uglier.
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Old 05-19-2019, 07:46 PM
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China theft is sucking the wealth out of Americans just the same as illegal migrants do. Cheap labor, cheap clothes, ...they are turning us into them, soon you won't be able to tell us apart. Bring on the tariffs.
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Old 05-20-2019, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Israel Putnam View Post
If workers are paid $20 an hour to assemble led lightbulbs here in the US and the lightbulbs are priced at $12 each then who is making more money really?

All this talk about higher wages and a strong middle class just ignore that if Jim Bob is getting paid $28 an hour to assemble the PCM for the Dodge 1500 that cost will be directly added to the retail cost of the vehicle.
Add on all these new middle class workers wages for all the little bits and pieces of that truck and itís now a $120,000 truck.
So is Joe Middle Class really making any more money when he is paying that for his new truck?
What about when he buys his domestically produced 65Ē tv for $2200?


Everyone harps about the middle class, but they wonít like paying for it, because when it comes time to pay for these goods it will become apparent real quick that just because Joe makes more, he still doesnít have any money for some reason...
It's more like Jim Bob is getting paid $18 an hour to install that PCM, and the cost of the vehicles is higher than ever. Stop drinking the Koolaid. Auto manufacturers have moved all those jobs to lower wage/non-union states, or to Mexico, in order to cut the cost of manufacturing...but has the price of vehicles gone down? No. The cost of a vehicle is higher than ever. They're sticking that money in their pockets and laughing at us.

We have two choices, we can either reconstruct our middle class...matter the cost...and have a strong economy and a strong tax base. Or we can continue to borrow ourselves into oblivion and give China the money that they're using to build up their military to go to war with us in the next 25 years or so. Which is the better choice?
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Old 05-20-2019, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by puttster View Post
There is not going to be a trade deal with China unless they give in on all Trump's demands - which they won't. As a result tariffs of the promised 25% will be invoked, maybe permanently, maybe followed by tariffing other cheap third world places, maybe followed by 50%. Good.

China is like thieves who steal your stuff and then make their money selling it back to you in a pawn shop. No new jobs are created, no increase in the hourly wage. You get your stuff back with a transfer of money from you to the thieves. Like a tax.

Tariffs won't stop the stealing but will raise the prices of the selling-back part. With higher market prices US manufacturing will step in to the gap. Labor will be demanded and wages will increase. Prices will rise, interest rates will rise to normal levels.

Yes business is right that tariffs are a tax on Americans but we are already being taxed by thievery. At least with tariffs the money stays here.
The thing I think most people don't realize is that we've been in a trade war with China for almost 30 years. It's just now that someone has had the balls to start shooting back.
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Old 05-20-2019, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by sabotage39k View Post
China is saying they will fight this trade war til the end. I remember several SB members saying China would blink quickly because of the impact to their economy. While true, they still have options that we failed to take away as I kept advocating by cutting them off from other markets like the EU. Instead we have given them options. Now they appear to be entrenched.

However, on the flip side the US is beginning to realize some itís mistakes as evident by now trying to solidify the North American trade market by getting rid of the steel tariffs to Mexico and Canada. Those are promising steps and again sheds light on the handicap protectionists policies brings on our economic objectives. In the mean time, American farmers will continue to suffer and their own loyalty to this administration will be tested. Time will tell.

This is just more proof that you canít always be a bull in a China shop no pun intended. Some of these matters require a more strategic approach and sometimes blind loyalty can come back to bite you where it hurts. The key issue here will be how the global supply chains will re align themselves. The game is not over yet. Itís half time. Hopefully, the smarter heads can prevail.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/finance...191648053.html
So, the Soviets tried to reform economically in 1966-67 and failed: the commies have decided to fight to the end. Their end. China is spending BILLIONS on bribes and they convinced themselves that Trump is bluffing.
And yes, it is much harder to wean the U.S. from the Chinese than it would be 20 years ago. And it will take time. In the end they have not a slightest chance of winning.
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Old 05-20-2019, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phil74501 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel Putnam View Post
If workers are paid $20 an hour to assemble led lightbulbs here in the US and the lightbulbs are priced at $12 each then who is making more money really?

All this talk about higher wages and a strong middle class just ignore that if Jim Bob is getting paid $28 an hour to assemble the PCM for the Dodge 1500 that cost will be directly added to the retail cost of the vehicle.
Add on all these new middle class workers wages for all the little bits and pieces of that truck and it’s now a $120,000 truck.
So is Joe Middle Class really making any more money when he is paying that for his new truck?
What about when he buys his domestically produced 65” tv for $2200?


Everyone harps about the middle class, but they won’t like paying for it, because when it comes time to pay for these goods it will become apparent real quick that just because Joe makes more, he still doesn’t have any money for some reason...
It's more like Jim Bob is getting paid $18 an hour to install that PCM, and the cost of the vehicles is higher than ever. Stop drinking the Koolaid. Auto manufacturers have moved all those jobs to lower wage/non-union states, or to Mexico, in order to cut the cost of manufacturing...but has the price of vehicles gone down? No. The cost of a vehicle is higher than ever. They're sticking that money in their pockets and laughing at us.

We have two choices, we can either reconstruct our middle class...matter the cost...and have a strong economy and a strong tax base. Or we can continue to borrow ourselves into oblivion and give China the money that they're using to build up their military to go to war with us in the next 25 years or so. Which is the better choice?
To be fair, technological advancements in equipping the car with all the latest has also brought the cost up.
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Old 05-20-2019, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabotage39k View Post
China is saying they will fight this trade war til the end. I remember several SB members saying China would blink quickly because of the impact to their economy. While true, they still have options that we failed to take away as I kept advocating by cutting them off from other markets like the EU. Instead we have given them options. Now they appear to be entrenched.

However, on the flip side the US is beginning to realize some it’s mistakes as evident by now trying to solidify the North American trade market by getting rid of the steel tariffs to Mexico and Canada. Those are promising steps and again sheds light on the handicap protectionists policies brings on our economic objectives. In the mean time, American farmers will continue to suffer and their own loyalty to this administration will be tested. Time will tell.

This is just more proof that you can’t always be a bull in a China shop no pun intended. Some of these matters require a more strategic approach and sometimes blind loyalty can come back to bite you where it hurts. The key issue here will be how the global supply chains will re align themselves. The game is not over yet. It’s half time. Hopefully, the smarter heads can prevail.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/finance...191648053.html
So, the Soviets tried to reform economically in 1966-67 and failed: the commies have decided to fight to the end. Their end. China is spending BILLIONS on bribes and they convinced themselves that Trump is bluffing.
And yes, it is much harder to wean the U.S. from the Chinese than it would be 20 years ago. And it will take time. In the end they have not a slightest chance of winning.
Doing nation to nation comparisons only give half the picture. Each nation has unique qualities that should be examined as well.
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Old 05-20-2019, 03:11 PM
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Doing nation to nation comparisons only give half the picture. Each nation has unique qualities that should be examined as well.
No doubt, at all, but the overwhelming similarity is a totalitarism.
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Old 05-20-2019, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by sabotage39k View Post
Doing nation to nation comparisons only give half the picture. Each nation has unique qualities that should be examined as well.
No doubt, at all, but the overwhelming similarity is a totalitarism.
China’s economy is state owned but not ran as such. They try to run most of there industries like capitalists do. They heavily subsidize though, so obviously the have bugs to work out. Plus, the situation was different. The Soviets had a sphere of influence around their geographic area in Eastern Europe that wasn’t as economically viable as the west. A big reason for that was US investment. Things are quite different now and the Europeans see us as an economic competitor instead.

Germany now has ties with the kremlin where back then when it was west Germany obviously at odds. Plus, China has emerging markets that it can access as alternative options all over in Eastern Asia. These economies were not built up anywhere near as big back then as they are today. I don’t know exactly where this will go. I don’t oppose tariffs against China. I just think it should have been done with cooperation from the EU as they also have similar interests to steer the Chinese market in a more uniform manner with western norms.

Instead, the Chinese as taking advantage of the split like a teenager with both parents living in separate households. They try to play one against the other. I don’t think this will be as easy as you are suggesting. Many SB members were saying the same thing last year, but look at where we are at now. No end in sight and the trade imbalance still as disproportionate as it’s ever been.
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