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Old 03-02-2019, 07:40 PM
neiowa neiowa is offline
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To be clear FD turnout gear does not provide and is not rated for ANY CBRN protection. It is for FIRE. In particular not good for chemical incidents (the fibers are nnomex and Kevlar blends which are polymers). Would keep falloff the skin and would be easy to washdown but has no radiological protection. All SCBA since 2007 are CBRN. As mentioned filters cartridges(or Scott will) and PAPR (use batteries) will provide longer duration use if not in an ILDH atmosphere.

Aerindel - unless you're using Scott Snapchange I want to see you and your #2 change a cylinder out in the time you can hold your breath. Maybe you can but that is why I only use Snapchange.

The damaged facepiece photo is "legacy" facepieces. Not unusual (in training towers). The 2013 edition of the NFPA 1981 standard required high temp. Standard testing includes "flame impingement exposure at 1800° F for 10 seconds". These are a huge improvement in FF protection. Facepiece was the weakest link in a FF protective ensemble.

I'd defy anyone to find an example of a SCBA cylinder receiving damage in a auto wreck that resulted in a "projectile excursion". I'd have heard about it. I generally keep cylinders in a pak and paks/cylinders loaded in my vehicle such they are less likely to fly into the back of my head in the event of a wreck. No concern at all about a valve breaking off. Carbon cylinders are tough.
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Old 03-02-2019, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
I'd defy anyone to find an example of a SCBA cylinder receiving damage in a auto wreck that resulted in a "projectile excursion". I'd have heard about it. I generally keep cylinders in a pak and paks/cylinders loaded in my vehicle such they are less likely to fly into the back of my head in the event of a wreck. No concern at all about a valve breaking off. Carbon cylinders are tough.

Nah, couldn't possibly happen. Now realize there are far greater forces at play in an MVA than someone swinging a maul or dropping a weighted bar on the valve assembly.

http://fire.nationalnearmiss.org/Reports?id=5162
http://fire.nationalnearmiss.org/Reports?id=9668

Just because it doesn't happen with enough frequency to be noticed, doesn't mean it can't happen and it's therefore safe or a good idea to run around with an SCBA and or bottles in your car on a regular basis. Think about how frequently SCBA bottles are transported in POVs... probably not real often. Now consider how many of those people get into serious rear-end collisions while at the same time transporting the bottles. Fewer still right? Do you think maybe that's the reason you haven't heard of it happening as opposed to it can't or won't happen because the designs are impervious to this happening? You guys do what you want, but I'm going to stick with my recommendation that it's not a good idea.


The 1800 degrees is direct flame impingement for 10 seconds... it's 500 ambient, for about 5 minutes and 15 kW/m2 radiant for 5 minutes. The 25 kW/m2 radiant is almost double the 2013 standard, so even new HT facepieces won't withstand that.

The SnapChange system looks pretty sweet though. No more cross-threading during toxic bottle changes.
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Old 03-03-2019, 03:08 AM
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If you really are OK with hauling something heavy around in your trunk to provide clean cabin air, filling a 5 gallon steel container with molecular sieve and another with activated carbon, hooked up with flexible metal ducting and a little fan to supply clean air to the vehicle cabin would likely give you several hours of serious protection. The sieve vessel would need to be kept sealed off until use otherwise it would simply fill with adsorbed water from the air before being needed. Or alternatively, you would need a heater to maintain it in a dry state. I suggest metal containment as it lets you unhook the vessel and regenerate it in an oven somewhere if needed.

Although plastic would probably be OK if you simply dumped the sieve out and baked it in a separate container.
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Old 03-03-2019, 10:39 PM
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Justme11, could you give a bit more information on the molecular sieve? This is new to me by that name.

Thanks.
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Old 03-04-2019, 12:08 AM
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Justme11, could you give a bit more information on the molecular sieve? This is new to me by that name.

Thanks.
UOP and Bayer make it. it is a special highly porous extruded pellet or round bead, Alumino Silicate material (also called a zeolite), with embedded magnetic adsorption sites, made to adsorb water, CO2, H2S, and other gaseous contaminants to below 1 ppm, with polarity that fit in the pore structure. 13X and 5 Angstrom are the main pore sizes available. It is somewhat similar to activated carbon in that it has a huge surface area for adsorption and can be regenerated by heating to around 350 deg F with a clean gas stream to carry away the contaminants.

The exact nature of the stuff is a trade secret of the companies. It used to cost $1.35 / LB in bulk. Density is around 40 lb/ft3. Typically provided in 55 gallon sealed drums. Also came in 2000 lb super sacks. To see what it removes you either need to find data or run tests. But a bed of sieve plus a bed of activated carbon would likely remove anything nasty in the air and have considerable capacity for removal until regeneration is needed. Loading is typically around 15 to 20 lbs of contaminant per 100 lbs of sieve.

https://www.deltaadsorbents.com/5a-molecular-sieve

http://catalog.asge-online.com/item/...-sieve/ms-1363


http://catalog.asge-online.com/viewi...lecular-sieve?
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Old 03-04-2019, 10:05 PM
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Thank you, Justme11. Just the information I needed.
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Old 03-05-2019, 05:39 PM
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Aerindel - unless you're using Scott Snapchange I want to see you and your #2 change a cylinder out in the time you can hold your breath.
I guess you never went through a fire academy. Doing this is required training. Not hard. Only takes about 15 seconds. Not a concern. Only practiced it once before being tested on it and was no big deal.

Even less of one if you have a buddy port, which I do.

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Just because it doesn't happen with enough frequency to be noticed, doesn't mean it can't happen and it's therefore safe or a good idea to run around with an SCBA and or bottles in your car on a regular basis.
No....that is exactly what it means.

If you think the idea trying to save your life by bugging out with an SCBA bottle yo'll probably be horrified to learn that I keep SCBA tanks in ALL my vehicles all the time just to fill up the tires.

Anyway. This thread is funny. I said in my first post that I don't really think SCBA's are that great for the stated purpose. But people seem to have so many wrong ideas about them I have to keep defending them anyway.

My whole point was, and is, that protective gear could be very important and that there are many reasons a person could need it. I happen to have fire gear and SCBA's (for which I have filter adapters as well), this is not what I'm telling people to get. Just that I refute both parts of this statement.

I know, first hand, that neither are true.

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If you’re in a situation where SCBA is required, you’ll be dead before you can put it on. If you’re plan is to put it on then leave a safe place to go through that environment... that’s really dumb.
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Old 03-05-2019, 09:07 PM
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I guess you never went through a fire academy. Doing this is required training. Not hard. Only takes about 15 seconds. Not a concern. Only practiced it once before being tested on it and was no big deal.
You can do a toxic bottle change with a threaded connection in 15 seconds?
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Old 03-05-2019, 09:57 PM
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You can do a toxic bottle change with a threaded connection in 15 seconds?
I'm not sure what mean by a toxic bottle, but sure, it only takes about fifteen seconds to change an SCBA bottle, the threaded kind are the only ones I've ever used.

Like I said, we had to do in the fire academy during the Hazmat portion in case you run out of air but not in a place where its safe to de-mask.

We also had to do things like strip down to underwear while staying on air. The idea being that you would strip all your clothes off, (in a certain way so you don't ever touch your own skin with the outside surface) get sprayed down with a fire hose to decon and only then drop your air pack once you left the hot zone. They did this on the last day of the academy which was really fun since we were all then cold and soaking wet when they let you go home. The instructors of course where the ones holding the hoses.

We do hot swaps all the time in my department because we are always short on manpower so when your air runs out you walk out of the fire area, drop to your ands and knees which is the sign for the support crew to run forward with a bottle and swap your tank right there without demasking or dropping your pack so you can be back in it right away. But our SOP only lets you do that once before taking at least a 30 minute break. Which is fine with me. After I suck down two twenty minute tanks I'm usually beat anyway.

Of course when you do it yourself you have to drop the pack so you can get to it, which takes longer, but the time your off air is just long enough to unthread the old bottle and thread on the new one and anyone can easily hold their breath that long.

And as I mentioned, some SCBA's have buddy ports where you can tie into a second tank without disconnecting the first . My personal SCBA pack has one, the department ones don't for some reason. The idea is that if you run out of air you can connect to another FF's pack who still has some and then share his tank to escape, but it works just as well for switching to a new tank.

Again, this is all just general SCBA information. For prepper purposes I still think a NATO gas mask would serve you better.
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Old 03-05-2019, 10:48 PM
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I'm not sure what mean by a toxic bottle, but sure, it only takes about fifteen seconds to change an SCBA bottle, the threaded kind are the only ones I've ever used.
Toxic environment bottle change, in 15 seconds?

Yeah, you're full of ****.

Maybe if you set everything up very carefully and you’re only counting the time it takes to with the bottle already off, unthread swap the bottle, then re-thread, then open. When we did our “hot swaps” we were required to do a consumption drill, crawl through a maze, etc until the bottle was almost empty, THEN do the swap on our own. And I can tell you from experience it takes far longer to do it under those conditions than ideal circumstances. Most of the time you end up cross-threading because the bottle’s threads are already jacked up from multiple practice sessions, you’re exhausted and your hands are shaking. 15 seconds... come on, don’t be that guy.

Last edited by CONELRAD; 03-05-2019 at 11:30 PM..
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Old 03-05-2019, 11:23 PM
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Yeah, you're full of ****.
Just exactly what is it that you think takes so much time? I mean, its obvious your totally ignorant but what in your imagination is so time consuming?

My SCBA bottles have seven threads.

Seven revolutions off

Seven revolutions on.

Takes about three seconds each way. The rest of the time is spent opening and closing the shut off valve and positioning the fitting.

Maybe this will help your ignorance. Takes this guy only about 30 seconds and that is with trying to put the bottle on backwards at first, and then putting the bottle in the airpack before he even starts hooking it up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq98...&frags=pl%2Cwn

Imagine this, but with the bottle already laid out next to the fitting instead of three feet away and backwards and you can see what I am talking about.
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Old 03-05-2019, 11:48 PM
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Maybe if you set everything up very carefully and you’re only counting the time it takes to with the bottle already off, unthread swap the bottle, then re-thread, then open.
Nice edit. Keeps you from looking like a total jack***

Yes....of course thats how you count it.

This was the comment

Quote:
Aerindel - unless you're using Scott Snapchange I want to see you and your #2 change a cylinder out in the time you can hold your breath.
So my reply was the time during a bottle change when you need to hold your breath. Which as you can see, is not a long time.

Obviously from start to finish it takes longer but that wasn't the question.
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Old 03-05-2019, 11:54 PM
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Just exactly what is it that you think takes so much time? I mean, its obvious your totally ignorant but what in your imagination is so time consuming?

My SCBA bottles have seven threads.

Seven revolutions off

Seven revolutions on.

Takes about three seconds each way. The rest of the time is spent opening and closing the shut off valve and positioning the fitting.

Maybe this will help your ignorance. Takes this guy only about 30 seconds and that is with trying to put the bottle on backwards at first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq98C...&frags=pl%2Cwn
Don't be a dumbass. He wasn't even wearing full PPE and it took him more like 40 seconds with everything set up all nice. Which, is fine for ideal circumstances. Go do a consumption drill in full PPE, then do your "hot swap", in full PPE, including gloves, and we'll see how you do... Mr. "15 seconds". We had to do it blacked out as well. Come talk to me once you've done that and we'll see who's the ignorant Farkle and who's actually "been there."
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Old 03-05-2019, 11:58 PM
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I answered the question that was asked.

Even in bad circumstance you can change a tank in the time you can hold your breath, and in good ones, about 15 seconds.

Your just looking for a fight.
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Old 05-07-2019, 06:04 PM
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The Scuba switch conundrum set aside for a moment (relax guys, I find myself disagreeing regularly with smart people that I respect and I remind myself that solutions to problems rarely sum to zero on a good day.)


I (like the OP) do see some potential value in having a vehicle that could protect it's occupants from airborne dangers. I also see potential value in a vehicle that could protect you from bullets, or roadblocks, or zombies, or fuel embargos, or EMP's, or downed power lines or rabid badgers, knowing that no vehicle could ever do any of those things perfectly, much less all of those things at once.


There are 12V powered overpressure CBRN filter systems available that can function quite well in a vehicle or any other 600ft3 box. Arguments are easy to find against their usefulness in some specific scenario, but I find it hard to argue against having such a tool available for the other 1,000 scenarios where it might make the difference.


The reality is that CBRN is impossible to address with PPE for the vast majority of pets, children, elderly, infirm. The only option would be to keep those people isolated with safe air, and why not put that safe air box on wheels so you might be able to GTFO of that particular acute situation?
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Old 05-07-2019, 06:33 PM
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There are 12V powered overpressure CBRN filter systems available that can function quite well in a vehicle or any other 600ft3 box.
Which ones?
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Old 05-07-2019, 08:07 PM
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Which ones?
Well, a CBRN filtration system is effectively a fan pushing/pulling air through a filter in a sealed container. It took me about 15 seconds to google a half dozen specific examples, and would take me about 6 hours to scratch-build the one I’ve been collecting filters and parts for.

I don't intend to hard sell anyone on the idea if they’re inherently opposed to it, but the only magic to a CBRN system is in the filter itself- which are modular and somewhat universal by design. The Apollo 13 crew built an effective CO2 scrubber with an extra filter and components they scrounged from the interior of their spaceship.


https://www.google.com/search?channe...w=1024&bih=729


https://www.bsilab.com/vehicle-integ...brn-filtration

http://www.hdtglobal.com/series/mobile-cbrn-protection/

http://www.hdtglobal.com/product/m13a1-filter-system/

12 volt powered home system...
https://risingsbunkers.com/layouts-p...ation-systems/





(edit) ......and before I get too beat up over it, I realize a CBRN filter Is more complex than just a 12v blower (or PD pump) and a filter, but there is no component (other than the specialized filter elements) that is so technologically complex that it cannot be built or modified by someone with a reasonable mechanical skillset.


I also don't specifically advocate that anyone should focus on building their own when so many reasonably priced commercial units are available. I'm working on building a unit simply as a skill building exercise and as a way to assess the many different modular filter units that are commercially available. That's not something I mean to advocate for the majority here, but if you do plan on having a CBRN system in your home or vehicle (or both) it makes sense to ensure that they all use the most effective, inexpensive, universal, and readily available standardized filters you can find, and I'm not yet sure which filter that is. When I do settle on one, I'll be buying them in bulk and building my systems around them, not the other way around. YMMV.




Here's another half dozen commercially available units designed for vehicles I scooped off of the same Google search..




















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Old 06-01-2019, 12:59 PM
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Are you expecting the possibility of nerve and blood agents?
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Old 06-03-2019, 05:51 PM
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Are you expecting the possibility of nerve and blood agents?
Can't speak for the OP, but my preps are less about what I expect, and more about creating as close to a universal security as is feasible or possible within the sideboards of what I can actually accomplish.


In that context, I want to be able to at least KNOW and understand why (or why not) the systems I build are effective in protecting from nerve or blood agents, and what other interventions might be available to fill the gaps if they're needed.

In my AO, nerve or blood agents would mean that a sophisticated entity (likely a state sponsored actor) is specifically trying to kill me and mine, and I don't pretend I'll ever have an answer for that beyond a GTFO procedure. WROL, there may be many less sophisticated groups that come up with ways to deploy such a weapon, but they would have to be dealt with well before they show up on my mountain with it.
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