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Old 06-23-2019, 08:51 AM
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Sure, we all like freedom. I can even defend someone's right to choose to be stupid.

At some point, one person's exercise of freedom encroaches on others.

Why don't I have the freedom to choose what side of the road I can drive on. That is not freedom. That is oppression by the man. Right. Simply take to an extreme.

The use of seat belts reduce medical and orphanage costs. It infringes on the freedom of others by unduly adding to such costs. Enough agree that society has passed a law. 90% of people agree enough to go along with the law.
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Old 06-23-2019, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PalmettoTree View Post
All my children and grandchildren use their seatbelts, booster seats, and sit in the correct place religiously.
Yet, as the rugged old survivalist, you swagger about your defiance of seat belts.

What ignorant newbie is going to follow your example.

Society has matured and most of agree that rape jokes are not humorous anymore.

Seat belts jokes and swagger have not matured as much. Bravado about one's own driving skills or luck and claims that being thrown clear of the wreck is the best bet is not good advise. Most will be thrown clear through a quater inch of glass and then clear into a pine tree. You know, like the ones with broken branches at lower levels that form 12" long spikes. That is one way to stick the landing.

On one hand, I point out my disgust with the blood that Surely will be on your hands. On the other, I appreciate your efforts to help cleanse the gene pool, even if it is not that of your own family.
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Old 06-23-2019, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by 9111315 View Post
Sure, we all like freedom. I can even defend someone's right to choose to be stupid.

At some point, one person's exercise of freedom encroaches on others.

Why don't I have the freedom to choose what side of the road I can drive on. That is not freedom. That is oppression by the man. Right. Simply take to an extreme.

The use of seat belts reduce medical and orphanage costs. It infringes on the freedom of others by unduly adding to such costs. Enough agree that society has passed a law. 90% of people agree enough to go along with the law.
it also forces people that need a new heart, or kidney to wait forever for a donor. Gotta look at both sides now. The give and take, yet still somehow, It's life's illusions I recall, I really don't know life... at all..

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Old 06-23-2019, 09:48 AM
OliverR. OliverR. is offline
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What disturbs me the most is driving around town and seeing a car full of kids bouncing around, even in the front seat, with no belts on. I have a 1.5 year old son, and would be considered protective of him. Makes me wince.

Good friend of mine was killed when he goosed his hotrod s-10 and got sideways, and thrown out the passenger window and mushed after hitting an oncoming truck. No belt. 30 years old married with a kid. Doing a burnout leaving the drag strip. He was a nice, hardworking, friendly person who would have walked away if he wore his belt.
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Old 06-23-2019, 10:42 AM
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I remember when cars did not come with belts, not even lap belts. My folks added them.
I also remember riding my motor cycle without a helmet. I even crashed it a couple times without.
Now I wear belts and helmets when ever I can. No use pushing the odds.
I dont heal as quickly as I used to.
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Old 06-23-2019, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PalmettoTree View Post
I only wear a seat belt if the car makes a noise until it is buckled. Then I but the cross strap behind me.

So out of all the people killed in accidents the majority of them 52% had seat belts on. Sounds like not wearing a seat belt is slightly safer than wearing one. Admittedly the number is so close it seems to make no difference.
Reminds me of cops who refuse to wear bullet resistant vest, cause they are hot, uncomfortable and the chances of being in a shooting are so small. Some would leave their gun at home too, if given the choice.

You're free to do what you want, but why not use the provided safety equipment?

Yeah, you need to be smarter. Seat Belts are 100% necessary, every, single time you get in a car. Why take the risk of serious injury or death, if you have a chnace to mitigate it, with no downside.

I had a stupid friend that was afraid of burning to death, especially in a car crash. Guess he watched the "A-Team" too many times and rotted his brain. Anyway, he wouldn't wear his set belt, because he didn't want it to trap him in the car, if he got in an accident.

I told him not to worry about getting out of the car, as he was likely to be ejected out the front windshield, in the event of a serious crash.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...00404669134562

Maybe you will survive like these guys, but the seat belted driver did die on the way to the hospital. Even stupid people get lucky, sometimes.
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Old 06-23-2019, 01:22 PM
PalmettoTree PalmettoTree is offline
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I use proper safety equipment in all other matters. One reason I do not have a new truck is because new vehicles make one buckle the seat belt. In my wife's car, she get a new BMW every 9 to 12 months, I put the cross belt behind me.

When I traveled as part of my job, I wore a seatbelt because it was required by my employer.

If a truck is washed one the outside, it doesn't look right.
If a truck is clean in the inside, it doesn't ride right.

It is my truck and so long as I am not endangering someone else, or damaging someone's property I will ride in it as I please. I will carry in it what I want. I have never washed it and have no plans to wash it. If I need to fit grandchildren in the back seat I will clean it enough to buckle them in in their booster seats. If an adult want to ride in the front seat then can clean a spot.

What I object to most is a grandfather with 5 grandchildren and a crew cab truck cannot take all 5 anywhere.

Make a pickup that will seat all 5 with me and I will wear anything anyone likes.
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Old 06-23-2019, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDH View Post
Collision and comprehensive to protect your car are not now required by law. The finance copy requires them as a contractual condition for approval of the loan.

Liability insurance to protect the property of others from damage you cause most assuredly should be required by law. The majority of drivers have proven they are not responsible enough to buy it were it not a requirement. The number of FMFR tickets I have written in my time in a patrol car bear witness to that.

(Failed to Maintain Financial Responsibility)
Because the government has intervened in the market and made it a requirement, the insurance companies now have a license to steal and they know and they use it. The free market should decide what products and services sell and at what price. Forcing people to engage in undesired commerce regardless of the product or service so required is fascism by definition.
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Old 06-23-2019, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revmgt View Post
Agree with this sentiment, but also support consistently wearing a seatbelt.
We all do prep and self defense stuff to increase our chances of surviving an incident or event but then some justify not using a device that increases our chances of survival in a crash. Were way more likely to have a car accident than need to use our gun for self defense but well drill for hours a week to get ready to protect ourselves.
Great, make that choice and "prep" for yourself. Don't make it for me. I am quite capable of evaluating risk on my own.
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Old 06-23-2019, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A_SonofLiberty View Post
Because the government has intervened in the market and made it a requirement, the insurance companies now have a license to steal and they know and they use it. The free market should decide what products and services sell and at what price. Forcing people to engage in undesired commerce regardless of the product or service so required is fascism by definition.
So you are saying that the guy who ran the stop light resulting in my $60,000 truck being totaled should be able to walk away free and clear.
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Old 06-23-2019, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by 9111315 View Post
Sure, we all like freedom. I can even defend someone's right to choose to be stupid.

At some point, one person's exercise of freedom encroaches on others.

Why don't I have the freedom to choose what side of the road I can drive on. That is not freedom. That is oppression by the man. Right. Simply take to an extreme.

The use of seat belts reduce medical and orphanage costs. It infringes on the freedom of others by unduly adding to such costs. Enough agree that society has passed a law. 90% of people agree enough to go along with the law.
Driving on the wrong side of the road causes a direct danger to others. My failure to wear a seatbelt does not. As for the financial "costs" I don't give a flying ****. 90% just means majority oppression of a minority. Faggots make up way less that 10% of the population, yet they are so protected from oppression of the majority that they are practically sacred cows. What if 90% decided all faggots should be thrown from the rooftops of multistory buildings? Would that make it right?
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Old 06-23-2019, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by OliverR. View Post
What disturbs me the most is driving around town and seeing a car full of kids bouncing around, even in the front seat, with no belts on. I have a 1.5 year old son, and would be considered protective of him. Makes me wince.
How old are you? What you describe was normal kid behavior when I was a kid. Somehow, most of my generation still survived

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Originally Posted by OliverR. View Post
Good friend of mine was killed when he goosed his hotrod s-10 and got sideways, and thrown out the passenger window and mushed after hitting an oncoming truck. No belt. 30 years old married with a kid. Doing a burnout leaving the drag strip. He was a nice, hardworking, friendly person who would have walked away if he wore his belt.
Maybe less of a seatbelt issue and more of a dumbass driver issue?
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Old 06-23-2019, 01:42 PM
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So you are saying that the guy who ran the stop light resulting in my $60,000 truck being totaled should be able to walk away free and clear.
No, take him to court and sue him for everything he has. Garnish his wages for the rest of his life. You hurt someone or damage their property you are responsible. All libertarians believe that. You should buy insurance. It should not be a legal requirement.
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Old 06-23-2019, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by A_SonofLiberty View Post
How old are you? What you describe was normal kid behavior when I was a kid. Somehow, most of my generation still survived



Maybe less of a seatbelt issue and more of a dumbass driver issue?
I'm 30.

True him being a dumbass got him killed. But OTOH 2 seconds to put his seatbelt on could have saved his life.

The kids bouncing around on the inside of a car is a serious bad parenting move. In a wreck, their soft little skulls squash like ripe little melons. Airbags are designed for people with a certain weight. Too light and they can cause injury or death by themselves. Kids (and most adults) have no idea just how deadly a vehicle can be.

Hell just a few weeks ago a kid was mushed here in houston because they weren't buckled in. https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc13.com/amp/4-year-old-killed-in-crash-not-restrained-in-car-seat-deputies/5312242/

I understand your apparent point of view about absolute freedoms. But it does not come without consequences.
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Old 06-23-2019, 02:33 PM
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When we were kids we would drink out of hoses, play outside all day miles from home unsupervised, get chased by wild dogs, ride in the back of pickup trucks, grab slabs of ice from the milk man's truck and suck on them to cool off, swing from vines over cliffs that sometimes broke, rode bikes on loose gravel, rode toboggans down mountains with no steering and no protection, played football with no equipment on fields with large rocks to break your fall, played with Jarts, shot guns, used axes and hatchets, trapped animals, didn't have insurance, or cell phones or seat belts, or nerf padded body suits. . But we survived just fine.

We also learned not to be stupid and how not to get hurt somewhere in the process.
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Old 06-23-2019, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Justme11 View Post
When we were kids we would drink out of hoses, play outside all day miles from home unsupervised, get chased by wild dogs, ride in the back of pickup trucks, grab slabs of ice from the milk man's truck and suck on them to cool off, swing from vines over cliffs that sometimes broke, played football with no equipment on fields with large rocks to break your fall, played with Jarts, shot guns, used axes and hatchets, trapped animals, didn't have insurance, or cell phones or seat belts, or nerf padded body suits. . But we survived just fine.

We also learned not to be stupid and how not to get hurt somewhere in the process.
I think it is just a matter that the stupid ones all died back then.

Today, we keep them alive. I don't know if that is a good thing.
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Old 06-23-2019, 03:28 PM
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No, take him to court and sue him for everything he has. Garnish his wages for the rest of his life. You hurt someone or damage their property you are responsible. All libertarians believe that. You should buy insurance. It should not be a legal requirement.
So we have to take them to court to get them to replace his 60,000 truck?
Then wait for payments from garnishing their pay.....

Im sorry but this sounds dumb as hell.
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Old 06-23-2019, 03:48 PM
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Spent my 20s & 30s rotating through various institutions because of mom's dementia (a rarer form that strikes age 45-55)

Saw more young people (late teens/early 20s) than I would have expected with extensive facial scarring, bed-bound, total care...most likely from going through a vehicle's windshield.

As young as they were they could easily live another 20-30 years.

At that time (15+ years ago) the homes in our LCOL area billed Medicaid $100/day, can't imagine what it costs now.

Dying isn't the thing to be feared...being a financial burden is, especially if you are married and/or support kids.
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Old 06-23-2019, 03:50 PM
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When I was a kid adults drank beer while driving on their long trips without seatbelts. Oh the good old days.

I wear seatbelts because it increases the chance of avoiding injury. The people misusing statistics in the thread are normally smarter about statistics. The number of people dying in crashes with and without seatbelts is about equal. The people injured in survivable accidents because they weren't wearing seatbelts is much much higher then those wearing seatbelts. Beyond a certain speed, type of accident, or size disparancy seatbelts still help but not as much.

I agree it should be a personal choice. And it's a no brainer choice for me. If I get into a car accident I want all the advantages I can get. Advanced safety features have reduced car deaths and injuries considerably over the decades, even with more miles driven and population increases. Seatbelts, airbags, crumple zones, have all helped me avoid any injuries in my last 2 major accidents (caused by others).

Quote:
78.7% of people in an accident wore a seat belt.
Of total fatal accidents, 48.1% were not wearing a seat belt.
Of those who wore a seat belt during an accident, 76,452 were not injured.
Of those who did not wear a seat belt during an accident, only 4,605 were not injured.
Since 1994, drivers use seat belts 16.5% more often.
The 48% number people are touting as some proof doesn't count the massive number of seat belt wearers that survive given 78.7% to 21.3% split. Approximately 1/5 of drivers account for close to 1/2 of deaths simply because they don't wear a seatbelt.

It's like trying convince me the bad part of town is safe because the majority of people don't get hurt or killed in them.
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Old 06-23-2019, 03:51 PM
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So we have to take them to court to get them to replace his 60,000 truck?
Then wait for payments from garnishing their pay.....

I’m sorry but this sounds dumb as hell.
Private creditors can't garnish wages in my state.

Even in those jurisdictions where they could be garnished, most likely the defendant would simply file bankruptcy which would fully discharge any civil judgment.
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