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Old 05-25-2018, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by “The Greek and Latin Traditions Regarding the Procession of the Holy Spirit” (September 13, 1995)
“The Catholic Church acknowledges the conciliar, ecumenical, normative and irrevocable value, as the expression of one common faith of the Church and of all Christians, of the Symbol professed in Greek at Constantinople in 381 by the Second Ecumenical Council. No confession of faith peculiar to a particular liturgical tradition can contradict this expression of faith taught and professed by the undivided Church.”

USCCB:
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Originally Posted by USCCB
"In all discussions about the origin of the Holy Spirit within the Mystery of God, and about the relationships of Father, Son and Holy Spirit with each other, the first habit of mind to be cultivated is doubtless a reverent modesty. Concerning the divine Mystery itself, we can say very little, and our speculations always risk claiming a degree of clarity and certainty that is more than their due.

No unity or trinity or number or oneness or fruitfulness, or any other thing that either is a creature or can be known to any creature, is able to express the Mystery, beyond all mind and reason, of that transcendent Godhead which in a super-essential way surpasses all things” (On the Divine Names 13.3). That we do, as Christians, profess our God, who is radically and indivisibly one, to be the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit – three “persons” who can never be confused with or reduced to one another, and who are all fully and literally God, singly and in the harmonious whole of their relationships with each other - is simply a summation of what we have learned from God’s self-revelation in human history, a revelation that has reached its climax in our being able, in the power of the Holy Spirit, to confess Jesus as the Eternal Father’s Word and Son. Surely our Christian language about God must always be regulated by the Holy Scriptures, and by the dogmatic tradition of the Church, which interprets the content of Scripture in a normative way. Yet there always remains the difficult hermeneutical problem of applying particular Scriptural terms and texts to the inner life of God, and of knowing when a pas*sage refers simply to God’s action within the “economy” of saving history, or when it should be understood as referring absolutely to God’s being in itself. The division between our Churches on the Filioque question would probably be less acute if both sides, through the centuries, had remained more conscious of the limitations of our knowledge of God.
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Old 05-25-2018, 10:40 AM
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USCCB: "The division between our Churches on the Filioque question would probably be less acute if both sides, through the centuries, had remained more conscious of the limitations of our knowledge of God."
Great! So as this admission by the Catholic side that there is no need to bother us with these issues beyond our comprehension then why the need to include the Fillioque and to keep it there for 1000 years against the express issues of the other bishops of the Church? Also, why not remove it from the Creed if this is the major problem to unite with the Orthodox and solve it in a civilized manner in a Council with all Apostolic bishops?

Maybe we are talking about a need to split using ANY justification by the Catholic Side? Then why the fake calls to union? Is this a power struggle to remove the authority of the other Apostolic Churches? Is that where all things lead? I think it is. So whoever is power hungry and bent on ruling his brothers will discover that this is not according to the freedom given by the Holy Spirit to all the Apostles. Not only Peter received the Holy Spirit but the other 11 also. Not only Peter received the power to create bishops but the other 11 as well. Peter did not decided alone, but he was imbued with the Holy Spirit and the other Apostles imbued as well with the Holy Spirit decided together with Peter.

In the end the Seat of Peter will come back to the signature given in the Third Council, there is no other way forward in a lawful and divine society.
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Old 05-25-2018, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by cat1978 View Post
Great! So as this admission by the Catholic side that there is no need to bother us with these issues beyond our comprehension then why the need to include the Fillioque and to keep it there for 1000 years against the express issues of the other bishops of the Church? Also, why not remove it from the Creed if this is the major problem to unite with the Orthodox and solve it in a civilized manner in a Council with all Apostolic bishops?
I've often heard it said that the major issues dividing the Orthodox and Catholic Churches had more to do with questions of authority than of theology. That appears to be true from the whole of this discussion. As I've stated earlier, there appears to be Biblical justification for the filioque (see my post from John above), but there is also justification for the Orthodox view.

You also have to remember that the Churches were split for many years during tumultuous periods of history, and through the Crusades - when reconciliation was an impossibility. Only after Vatican II, has there been a serious movement within the Catholic Church towards reconciliation. There are in fact still Catholics who adhere to the old Pre-Vatican II ways of Catholic liturgy and belief - and they speak about the Orthodox in similar terms to the way the Orthodox speak of Catholics in this thread. It is the Post-Conciliar Church which has allowed this dialog to progress.

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Maybe we are talking about a need to split using ANY justification by the Catholic Side? Then why the fake calls to union? Is this a power struggle to remove the authority of the other Apostolic Churches? Is that where all things lead? I think it is. So whoever is power hungry and bent on ruling his brothers will discover that this is not according to the freedom given by the Holy Spirit to all the Apostles. Not only Peter received the Holy Spirit but the other 11 also. Not only Peter received the power to create bishops but the other 11 as well. Peter did not decided alone, but he was imbued with the Holy Spirit and the other Apostles imbued as well with the Holy Spirit decided together with Peter.
I don't know what you mean by "fake calls to union." I don't know anyone who doesn't want to unify all Christians under one banner (except the traditionalists I mentioned above). There is no power struggle. In the Roman Catholic Church of today, the councils still have the greatest weight. Most councils throughout history have been called for a specific purpose though, and Vatican II was not. A new council would have an agenda of dealing with the differences in the two Churches - with the aim of achieving consensus. As long as you are comfortable with each bishop getting one vote, then I don't think you have anything to worry about in a unified Church.

Just because the Roman Church has always been hierarchical, does not mean that this would be imposed on Eastern Orthodox Churches who have proved their faithfulness to the Holy Spirit. I would expect both "halves" of the Church to continue to be governed as they are today. The Pope's role in the Roman Church is usually described as the "first among equals." He has the final say in matters of faith and morals when making a formal pronouncement "ex cathedra" from the papal throne. This was last done in the 1950's. Pope Benedict described the councils as having more prominence and that a Pope's action should proceed from decisions of the council.

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In the end the Seat of Peter will come back to the signature given in the Third Council, there is no other way forward in a lawful and divine society.
We'll see. I've said many times already that I think this may be something the Catholic Church will bend on. But we'll see.
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Old 05-25-2018, 01:43 PM
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Pope Benedict described the councils as having more prominence and that a Pope's action should proceed from decisions of the council.
Pope Benedict, I'm telling you is a shame he is not the one doing this union. He had a certain charisma in the Orthodox Church because of his "orthodox" views within the Catholic Church. I decry the new Pope, Francis, that is trying his best to make the Church relevant to the young people but he is losing with his liberalism most of the serious believers young or old.

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We'll see. I've said many times already that I think this may be something the Catholic Church will bend on. But we'll see.
Maybe Trump needs to become Pope to have something Done on this union.
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Old 09-05-2019, 10:50 PM
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A Grand gesture by Pope Francis. Will this help?

https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2019/07/...dox-patriarch/
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Old 09-06-2019, 12:56 PM
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A Grand gesture by Pope Francis. Will this help?

https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2019/07/...dox-patriarch/
I will be really happy when the Pope will just go ahead and say: "Lets start over. Lets go back to Nicaea and revisit the signature, reestablish the authority of the Council over both Churches. Lets, start and build from there." If he does that he will be called "a son of God", a peace maker. I am sure you will do it Atticus if you will be in his position. There is no losing for Catholics if the Pope does that. Just win. Huge win.
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Old 09-06-2019, 06:30 PM
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From your lips to God's ears. Peace my brothers.
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