Botulism Primer - Page 2 - Survivalist Forum
Survivalist Forum

Advertise Here

Go Back   Survivalist Forum > >
Articles Classifieds Donations Gallery Groups Links Store Survival Files


Notices

Food and water Discussion on food and water storage, water purification and related topics.

Advertise Here
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
i ate a botulism pie. trixie Health, Fitness and First Aid 41 03-12-2019 08:53 PM
Botulism Primer on the forum Mels thinkingitover Farming, Gardening & Homesteading 3 03-07-2014 07:57 AM
Botulism in canning goods Krymsin Health, Fitness and First Aid 33 04-01-2012 10:08 AM
Botulism in homemade alcohol... Jules64 Disaster Preparedness General Discussion 6 10-06-2011 10:58 AM
Botulism, symptoms, treatment SouthernBell Farming, Gardening & Homesteading 12 06-18-2011 06:36 AM
Botulism Danger with Moisture! rocktot Disaster Preparedness General Discussion 3 11-16-2010 01:16 PM
why the worry about botulism? trixie Farming, Gardening & Homesteading 22 01-20-2010 09:22 AM
Botulism and cans kestak Disaster Preparedness General Discussion 17 11-22-2009 08:48 PM
Botulism and you BJJ_Grappler Disaster Preparedness General Discussion 12 01-17-2009 07:58 AM

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-01-2014, 06:29 AM
gamgee's Avatar
gamgee gamgee is offline
Never Abducted
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 14,270
Thanks: 57,628
Thanked 47,056 Times in 12,773 Posts
Default



Advertise Here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mels thinkingitover View Post
In a survival situation, many things might be done in a method that is more dangerous than in a normal situation. It is one of the reasons to arm ourselves with the knowledge ahead of time so we are the most prepared to reduce those risks.

It is hard to believe just how small an amount of toxin it takes to cause severe illness. Without the extensive medical support available today (and we would assume it would not be available in a survival situation) the death rate from botulism is 50%. That is steep.

If you water bath low acid foods and the toxin develops, it would only take getting the toxin on your can opener or spoon and then touching something else you would eat. Get a bit on your finger and then check the saltiness of your food and you have potentially ingested enough toxin to be a major problem.

The high risk of illness in improperly processed foods is one of the reasons it is so important to follow the two step process in home canning low acid foods. The first step - pressure canning, the second step - boiling for ten minutes after opening, has been developed because research showed that one - two punch makes the food safe. This method became recommended after much investigation into methods to make home canning safe and keep people alive.

Water bath canning does not kill the spores. The low acid, oxygen deprived environment in canned vegetables and meats is a breeding ground for botulism to develop the toxins.

One of the reasons many of us work toward having a backup canner and/or parts for our canners is to reduce the risk of having to preserve food in a proven unsafe manner. An entire family could be wiped out by a jar of green beans.

Does that mean we should not home can? No, but it does mean we need to provide for safe preservation of the food. Sometimes people say it is safer to purchase commercially canned food. In a survival situation, we are not looking at running to the local supermarket and picking up a can of food. So, we need to learn the risks and methods to alleviate the risks in home canning.

Would every jar of low acid food develop botulism toxin if waterbath canned - no. Would every jar of low acid food that was waterbath canned be a risk - yes. Just like Russian roulette is not a practical form of entertainment, playing the same type game with our food supply is not practical.

I have to assume that if I am in a situation where I have the jars, flats, rings, and food to can, then I'm also going to be in a situation where the other needed supplies such as a pressure canner are available. It's not like you can whip enough supplies out of a backpack to can up a few jars of the wild asparagus you find on the side of a trail. You are in a set up environment if canning is a possibility. If the zombie hordes stole your pressure canner, your neighbor's pressure canner (for sharing, not stealing), and you are faced with three bushels of green beans, it is time for whipping out the dehydrating skills and making leatherbritches, in my opinion.
Good advice Mel. I think that's one reason why it's important to have a pressure canner with the weights, at least as a back-up, in case there is no way to calibrate your gauge.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to gamgee For This Useful Post:
Old 03-01-2014, 01:37 PM
OldBlackWater's Avatar
OldBlackWater OldBlackWater is offline
Semper Vigilans
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: North of the Rio Grande West of the Pecos
Posts: 5,058
Thanks: 24,554
Thanked 11,951 Times in 3,861 Posts
Default

Thanks Mel for putting together such a well thought out and informative thread.

I think it serves not only to remind us how cautious we need to be regarding how dangerous Botulism can be, it also demonstrates how seldom this occurs and gives me more confidence in our canning processes that we will be safe.

It is threads like this that I find make Survival Board the great source for self-sufficiency that it is.

Be Prepared,
OBW
.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to OldBlackWater For This Useful Post:
Old 03-01-2014, 07:40 PM
sprkymrk's Avatar
sprkymrk sprkymrk is offline
Get off my lawn!
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 4,549
Thanks: 5,305
Thanked 8,848 Times in 3,525 Posts
Default

Subscribed to thread for future reference. I have nothing to add right now. Great work Mel!
Quick reply to this message
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to sprkymrk For This Useful Post:
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 03-01-2014, 08:25 PM
kokosmom2's Avatar
kokosmom2 kokosmom2 is offline
Trying to Catch-up

 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: WI
Age: 64
Posts: 20,002
Thanks: 22,565
Thanked 35,182 Times in 15,020 Posts
Default

Thanks Mel!

As to the comment about boiling at 212 degrees vs canning at 240. My thought was that water boils at 212 but other foods boil at different temps (usually higher) don't they? Not that I've taken the temp of boiling pea soup, but I'll bet it is higher than 212 degrees. I think I'll take it's temp next time I open a jar and boil it.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to kokosmom2 For This Useful Post:
Old 03-02-2014, 03:05 AM
IamZeke's Avatar
IamZeke IamZeke is offline
Beer Truck Door Gunner
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 26,470
Thanks: 27,678
Thanked 54,822 Times in 19,110 Posts
Default

Excellent work, Mel!
__________________
Need more info? Try this:

Search using Google, type "site:survivalistboards.com" in Google's search box, followed by the search parameters. You can use all normal conventions, limit searches by date, etc. Works quite well and beats the native search function.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to IamZeke For This Useful Post:
Old 03-02-2014, 05:22 AM
Mels thinkingitover Mels thinkingitover is offline
Peas and Carrots!
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: The Road Less Traveled
Posts: 36,851
Thanks: 63,838
Thanked 132,085 Times in 31,035 Posts
Awards Showcase
Outstanding Member 
Total Awards: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kokosmom2 View Post
Thanks Mel!

As to the comment about boiling at 212 degrees vs canning at 240. My thought was that water boils at 212 but other foods boil at different temps (usually higher) don't they? Not that I've taken the temp of boiling pea soup, but I'll bet it is higher than 212 degrees. I think I'll take it's temp next time I open a jar and boil it.
There may be 15,000 different temperatures at which things boil, for the purposes of this explanation, it really doesn't matter. With the exception of elevation adjustments for high elevations, the instructions are very straightforward.

The people who had tons of lab equipment, botulinum spores and botulism toxin available determined through a lot of experimentation and testing, that the combination of processing methods and temperatures works to render food safe. It works.

Therefore, for me to make a chart of every possible food I might come in contact with and what it's particular variances could possibly be that might or might not cause me to kill my family with a toxin that should have been destroyed had I followed the instructions seems counter-productive to survival.

In waterbath canning, the temperature that the water boils is 212 degrees, not enough to kill botulinum toxin. In pressure canning, the temperature is raised to 240 degrees as a result of the action of the pressure canner. High elevations have some temperature differences in when water boils and have to use different pressure to achieve appropriate pressure when pressure canning. Those differences are addressed in modern canning manuals as needed.

Whatever PSI of pressure is required to can foods for your elevation, once it is reached it results in a 240 degree minimum environment inside the canner. That is the goal in home pressure canning. That is what kills botulinum spores.

Whatever temperature is required to bring foods to a boil and keep them that way for 10 minutes is what is required for any botulism toxin in foods to be neutralized.

There are several reasons for the different steps, as has been explained above. It takes such a very tiny bit of the toxin to cause severe illness that taking both of the steps is a small price to pay for a safe food supply.

Botulism is an extremely painful illness whose effects take up to 3 - 5 years to completely recover from, it is extremely expensive to treat in many cases, and without modern medical intervention has about a 50% death rate. It is entirely too easy to prevent by following safe food guidelines, to take chance on not following them. I look at my family and can't decide which ones should die because I was too hard-headed to follow proven instructions. It's simply not worth the risk in my opinion.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 13 Users Say Thank You to Mels thinkingitover For This Useful Post:
Old 03-02-2014, 09:08 PM
MikeK's Avatar
MikeK MikeK is offline
Walking methane refinery
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 56
Posts: 63,940
Thanks: 129,389
Thanked 152,746 Times in 44,507 Posts
Awards Showcase
Outstanding Member 
Total Awards: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGuyversurvivor View Post
this has always been a caution, and quiet terror to me.. I am encouraged to see the low prevalence of it,, I thought it was much more common
at the same time, I am not at all confident about home canning now.. not that I was...anyway,..

very thorough and much needed post thread,, I must re read this and take notes,,
hey, if SHTF,, I cannot read it here,, and this is big time important stuff,

a question = are sugared foods like jams and jellies safe from botulism ?

another, = you say the spores are not harmful, the toxin produced is.....if we eat fallen apples and such,, as we do is there any chance the toxin had developed in or on the ground or the apples, ? if so,, how do we handle that situation..

one more question,, I know you said 240 to kill the spores and 212 to neutraize the toxin,, but would extended ..hours and hours,, maybe 6 or 8 ...like slow pasteurization by "slow Cooking" or simmering
(I think simmering, not vigorous boiling would be just under 212 right ? )
, as I do in making applesauce----- render either of them harmless ?

anohter question = how about when making vinegar with the apples,

another = how about making applejack aka hard alcoholic cider '

in either of those cases can one be certain that botulism is not a threat

another (off Topic) question,, how about getting salmonella from slugs or snails crawling over fallen apples or tomatoes on the vine etc ( another thread perhaps ?)

Tnanks
I'll limit my answer specifically to the growth of botulism from spores. In order to breed and release toxin, botulism requires a moist, low acid and low O2 environment. We eat botulism spores every day. They float around in the air. But the gut is too acidic for them to grow. Infants under 1 year of age can be succeptible to botulism because they have not developed that acidity yet.

As for apples and such, they're acidic, but they're also in a high O2 environment so the spores can't develop.

Canned foods present that moist, low O2 environment. This is why one of two processes are used. High acid allows lower canning temperatures because while the spores are not killed, they can't breed because of the acid level. Low acid foods require the higher canning temperatures to render the spores inert.

Time is no substitute for temperature. If you can't pressure can, then the only other truly safe ways to can foods are by raising the acid level or using a preservative that doesn't allow botulism to grow. This is why you see sodium nitrate in cheap canned meats. It is not about shelf life. It's about preventing botulism so they can use the cheaper, lower heat canning process. The better canned meats don't have this because at higher canning temperatures, it's not required.
Quick reply to this message
Old 03-03-2014, 12:10 AM
TMcArthur's Avatar
TMcArthur TMcArthur is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 6,848
Thanks: 2,271
Thanked 8,789 Times in 3,502 Posts
Default

Especially ridiculous is botulism suffered by stupid people who who to botox "parties" and overdose ....
Quick reply to this message
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to TMcArthur For This Useful Post:
Old 03-03-2014, 02:42 AM
dealfinder500 dealfinder500 is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: In the woods.
Posts: 4,935
Thanks: 25,165
Thanked 9,047 Times in 3,447 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gamgee View Post
If, in a survival situation where a pressure canner was not available, could one safely water bath can low-acid foods, as long as they boil it for ten minutes upon opening, thereby killing the toxin?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mels thinkingitover View Post
In a survival situation, many things might be done in a method that is more dangerous than in a normal situation. It is one of the reasons to arm ourselves with the knowledge ahead of time so we are the most prepared to reduce those risks.

It is hard to believe just how small an amount of toxin it takes to cause severe illness. Without the extensive medical support available today (and we would assume it would not be available in a survival situation) the death rate from botulism is 50%. That is steep.

If you water bath low acid foods and the toxin develops, it would only take getting the toxin on your can opener or spoon and then touching something else you would eat. Get a bit on your finger and then check the saltiness of your food and you have potentially ingested enough toxin to be a major problem.

The high risk of illness in improperly processed foods is one of the reasons it is so important to follow the two step process in home canning low acid foods. The first step - pressure canning, the second step - boiling for ten minutes after opening, has been developed because research showed that one - two punch makes the food safe. This method became recommended after much investigation into methods to make home canning safe and keep people alive.

Water bath canning does not kill the spores. The low acid, oxygen deprived environment in canned vegetables and meats is a breeding ground for botulism to develop the toxins.

One of the reasons many of us work toward having a backup canner and/or parts for our canners is to reduce the risk of having to preserve food in a proven unsafe manner. An entire family could be wiped out by a jar of green beans.

Does that mean we should not home can? No, but it does mean we need to provide for safe preservation of the food. Sometimes people say it is safer to purchase commercially canned food. In a survival situation, we are not looking at running to the local supermarket and picking up a can of food. So, we need to learn the risks and methods to alleviate the risks in home canning.

Would every jar of low acid food develop botulism toxin if waterbath canned - no. Would every jar of low acid food that was waterbath canned be a risk - yes. Just like Russian roulette is not a practical form of entertainment, playing the same type game with our food supply is not practical.

I have to assume that if I am in a situation where I have the jars, flats, rings, and food to can, then I'm also going to be in a situation where the other needed supplies such as a pressure canner are available. It's not like you can whip enough supplies out of a backpack to can up a few jars of the wild asparagus you find on the side of a trail. You are in a set up environment if canning is a possibility. If the zombie hordes stole your pressure canner, your neighbor's pressure canner (for sharing, not stealing), and you are faced with three bushels of green beans, it is time for whipping out the dehydrating skills and making leatherbritches, in my opinion.
Good question and good answer!
Quick reply to this message
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to dealfinder500 For This Useful Post:
Old 03-04-2014, 11:53 AM
MichaelK MichaelK is offline
Hunter
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sierra Nevada
Posts: 1,081
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1,473 Times in 613 Posts
Default

Since I'm a microbiologist, and also a home canner, I thought I'd throw in my two cents.

In regards to reheating foods to destroy toxin, thats really playing Russian roulette! Botulism toxin is lethal in nanogram quanities, so tiny that most people can't even conceptionalize amounts so small. Immagine taking a paper clip, which has a mass of about 1 gram. Divide that paperclip into 1000 little snippets. Each would be a milligram. Now divide one snippet into 1000 peices. That's a microgram, so small you might not see it without a microscope. Now divide that microscopic snippet again. That's a nanogram. That's how dangerous botulism toxin is.

I think part of the problem with people accepting the idea that you MUST use a pressure canner is the cost of the equiment. If you go on-line right now, what you might find is an entry-level canner costing in the range of 60-75$. I suppose that inital cost is enough to dissuade some.

I have to say that I now have 4 different canners, and the most I've payed for one is 15$. And that was for a very nice 23 qt Presto. The first thing you might say is that an old canner needs to checked by the county extension office, which also might entail some cost.

I'm in a position to validate the functionality of my own canners because I have access to autoclave thermometers that can record the temperatures inside the canner while it's pressurized. What I've found is that as long as you repace the gasket, every single canner I've tested stayed within specification. BTW, I only buy weighted exhaust canners, which keep the canner in a certain pressure via their weight, because the mass of the weight will never change.

So, there really is no valid reason why everybody can't have their own canner in their kitchens.

I use my canner exclusively, but it might be appropriate to mention two obsolete methods used back in the 19th century. One is salt bath canning, and the other is called Tindylization. In salt bath canning, you boil the jars submered in a saturated salt solution. The massive salt concentration raises the boiling point of water to 240F, the same as in the canner. The problem though is that the salt is so corrosive, and you're likely to have pinholes eaten through your lids simply because all the salt isn't removed.

The second obsolete method is Tindylization, which required sequencial heating at 212F over a three day period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyndallization

The stratege here is that heat is one of the factors that makes the botulism spores germinate and grow into new cells. Upon the first heating, all the vegative cells are killed, but the botulism spores are stimulated to germinate. But, the subsequent REHEATING a day later kills the newly germinated cells before they have a chance to produce new spores. The third heating just makes sure that any stragglers not killed in the first reheating get killed in the second. Any toxin produced by the newly sprouted spores gets distroyed in either the first or second reheating.

I know about these techniques because of micro 101 class, but never have attempted either because a canner is just so much more easy and straightforward. But, in a life or death starvation situation without a canner, I might want to revisit them.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 16 Users Say Thank You to MichaelK For This Useful Post:
Old 03-04-2014, 12:16 PM
Mels thinkingitover Mels thinkingitover is offline
Peas and Carrots!
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: The Road Less Traveled
Posts: 36,851
Thanks: 63,838
Thanked 132,085 Times in 31,035 Posts
Awards Showcase
Outstanding Member 
Total Awards: 1
Default

MichaelK, you are right that botulism is nothing to play around with. The heating of food to a boil for 10 minutes is the second step of a two step prevention program. The first step should always be use of appropriate pressure canning methods for all low acid foods. This is what the USDA and CDC recommend after great testing to determine the sequence that renders food safe.

Low acid foods are everything but fruits and some tomatoes. Tomatoes must have acid added to them, they are not as acidic as they once were. Most people preparing fruits and fruit products for canning at home add lemon juice or citric acid as part of the canning process. That assures the acidity is high enough when added to their natural acidity for waterbath canning. Low acid foods, however, cannot have the acidity raised enough by the addition of an acid and must be pressure canned.

I did not mention salt bath canning as a canning option because, while as a scientific theory it works, in a practical kitchen application it most often results in unsealed, wasted food. It was dropped as a viable canning method in the late 40's when pressure canners became available on the open market.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Mels thinkingitover For This Useful Post:
Old 03-04-2014, 12:56 PM
IamZeke's Avatar
IamZeke IamZeke is offline
Beer Truck Door Gunner
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 26,470
Thanks: 27,678
Thanked 54,822 Times in 19,110 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mels thinkingitover View Post
Tomatoes must have acid added to them, they are not as acidic as they once were.
A short KISS discussion about tomato acidity.
http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=dailytip&dbid=383

A more detailed one as it relates to canning tomatoes.
http://www.joe.org/joe/2010december/rb6.php
__________________
Need more info? Try this:

Search using Google, type "site:survivalistboards.com" in Google's search box, followed by the search parameters. You can use all normal conventions, limit searches by date, etc. Works quite well and beats the native search function.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to IamZeke For This Useful Post:
Old 03-04-2014, 01:20 PM
Rett Rett is offline
High Concept
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,359
Thanks: 1,369
Thanked 6,735 Times in 2,434 Posts
Default

Quote:
The four enemies of successful long term food storage are light, oxygen, moisture and heat.
No the greatest enemy of successful long term food storage is procrastination poisoning. You need to filter out all the sodium procrastinate in your local town water before even consider getting into food storage.
Otherwise you will never get around to doing it.

Last edited by MikeK; 03-04-2014 at 02:16 PM.. Reason: Don't do that
Quick reply to this message
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Rett For This Useful Post:
Old 03-04-2014, 09:24 PM
MikeV1234's Avatar
MikeV1234 MikeV1234 is offline
Web Designer
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: North Dallas, TX area
Posts: 764
Thanks: 1,874
Thanked 680 Times in 333 Posts
Default

Best post in a long time here!!!

Thanks!
Quick reply to this message
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to MikeV1234 For This Useful Post:
Old 03-04-2014, 11:16 PM
bestfriendroo's Avatar
bestfriendroo bestfriendroo is offline
Hunter
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,546
Thanks: 6,970
Thanked 2,500 Times in 1,051 Posts
Default

Excellent thread thank you!
If, In a survival situation, how are most thinking go a source of heat for pressure canning?
Has anyone pressure canned over an open fire? Wood stove?
I've heard several people mention gas outdoor cookers/fryers, that they use.
Thoughts??
Quick reply to this message
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to bestfriendroo For This Useful Post:
Old 03-05-2014, 12:51 AM
IamZeke's Avatar
IamZeke IamZeke is offline
Beer Truck Door Gunner
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 26,470
Thanks: 27,678
Thanked 54,822 Times in 19,110 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bestfriendroo View Post
Excellent thread thank you!
If, In a survival situation, how are most thinking go a source of heat for pressure canning?
Has anyone pressure canned over an open fire? Wood stove?
I've heard several people mention gas outdoor cookers/fryers, that they use.
Thoughts??
My first choice would be my gas indoor stove. I figure it will run longer than the electric will run. Next would be bottled gas on a turkey fryer burner. Finally I'd look into upsizing your typical brick rocket stove. Come to think about it, that seems like a nice project to attack with my mediocre masonry skills.
__________________
Need more info? Try this:

Search using Google, type "site:survivalistboards.com" in Google's search box, followed by the search parameters. You can use all normal conventions, limit searches by date, etc. Works quite well and beats the native search function.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to IamZeke For This Useful Post:
Old 03-05-2014, 11:30 AM
MikeK's Avatar
MikeK MikeK is offline
Walking methane refinery
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 56
Posts: 63,940
Thanks: 129,389
Thanked 152,746 Times in 44,507 Posts
Awards Showcase
Outstanding Member 
Total Awards: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bestfriendroo View Post
Excellent thread thank you!
If, In a survival situation, how are most thinking go a source of heat for pressure canning?
Has anyone pressure canned over an open fire? Wood stove?
I've heard several people mention gas outdoor cookers/fryers, that they use.
Thoughts??
I've pressure canned over a wood fire just to learn how to do it. It's best to do a lot of practice cooking over one first, to learn how to control heat by adding and subtracting coals. But you can keep an even enough heat to keep pressure up. It just takes constant supervision.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to MikeK For This Useful Post:
Old 03-06-2014, 07:42 AM
firebirdx's Avatar
firebirdx firebirdx is offline
Catch Me If You Can...
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 829
Thanks: 1,897
Thanked 1,842 Times in 550 Posts
Default

Can we possibly sticky this in the Farming/Gardening and Homesteading section?
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to firebirdx For This Useful Post:
Old 03-06-2014, 07:50 AM
Mels thinkingitover Mels thinkingitover is offline
Peas and Carrots!
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: The Road Less Traveled
Posts: 36,851
Thanks: 63,838
Thanked 132,085 Times in 31,035 Posts
Awards Showcase
Outstanding Member 
Total Awards: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by firebirdx View Post
Can we possibly sticky this in the Farming/Gardening and Homesteading section?
There will be other foodborne illnesses reported on and then a summary sticky with the link to the various ones would be appropriate possibly.

I put it in this section at this time because it affects commercially canned and home canned foods along with our general preparedness knowledge. Many members on the forum never venture into the Farming, Gardening, and Homesteading section of the forum.

I'll try to post in that section and reference this thread, perhaps that will help.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Mels thinkingitover For This Useful Post:
Old 03-07-2014, 08:15 AM
aimlow aimlow is offline
Target Shooter
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 434
Thanks: 2,668
Thanked 588 Times in 258 Posts
Default

awesome thread, i don't can (unless you count pickled eggs) but i have some people who would find this very useful
Quick reply to this message
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to aimlow For This Useful Post:
Reply

Bookmarks



Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Survivalist Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Gender
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright © Kevin Felts 2006 - 2015,
Green theme by http://www.themesbydesign.net