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Old 09-13-2019, 10:52 AM
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A couple of things. First, Christ and the Apostles tell us time and again that we should pray. Secondly, praying isn't "begging" (necessarily). We can thank God in prayer. We can ask that He help folks who may be in need. We can pray for guidance, protection, truth, and all sorts of things without begging for them. I will admit that I have begged for God's help when I was in deep despair.
I thank the Consciousnesses often but I don't consider it praying.
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Old 09-13-2019, 02:45 PM
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I thank the Consciousnesses often but I don't consider it praying.

Does "the Consciousnesses" have power? If so ... where can we find the witness to such power and/or where "they" received "their" power? Or is this just something that popped into your head and you choose to believe because it feels good?
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Old 09-14-2019, 09:09 AM
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Does "the Consciousnesses" have power? If so ... where can we find the witness to such power and/or where "they" received "their" power? Or is this just something that popped into your head and you choose to believe because it feels good?
You call it God, I call it the Consciousness. Either way it is the same thing, the creator of our Universe.

And no, it isn't written down, because everyone has to find his/her own path to the Tao.

The Tao which can be spoken isn't the true Tao.
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Old 09-14-2019, 12:43 PM
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Unless our departed beloved ones are confirmed Saints most likely they need our prayers for their souls more than we need their prayers for our souls. For we do not know if they are in Heaven or Hell. Only for confirmed Saints we can be sure they are in Heaven due to their life and sometimes miracles or other confirmations.
Scripture refers to believers as saints.

But the church implies that only the church can confer sainthood.

The church says we can pray to "church confirmed" saints.

Isn't that placing mediators between us and God, and maybe a bit of divination as well?
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Old 09-14-2019, 03:36 PM
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Old 09-15-2019, 07:23 AM
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Scripture refers to believers as saints.

But the church implies that only the church can confer sainthood.

The church says we can pray to "church confirmed" saints.

Isn't that placing mediators between us and God, and maybe a bit of divination as well?
No. Scripture refers to those believers as saints because they WERE Saints. In those times the Holy spirit was given in abundance and the hearts were melting faster to it. Today believers hearts are stone even when they confess faith, and they don't renounce their sins as easily as those early church saints did. So not all that are part of the Church have the same holiness received in them. They will be differentiated today in simply weak believers which are almost all of us today and strong believers which are saints, even some among us. There are some strong believers among us and I recognize them as saints even if the Church does not officially recognize them. We still pray to these people when we ask them to pray for us. They are a good priest, or a nice neighbor, or a holy monk, or a good patient wife.

I hope you can perceive of what I am telling you.
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Old 09-15-2019, 12:00 PM
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No. Scripture refers to those believers as saints because they WERE Saints. In those times the Holy spirit was given in abundance and the hearts were melting faster to it. Today believers hearts are stone even when they confess faith, and they don't renounce their sins as easily as those early church saints did. So not all that are part of the Church have the same holiness received in them. They will be differentiated today in simply weak believers which are almost all of us today and strong believers which are saints, even some among us. There are some strong believers among us and I recognize them as saints even if the Church does not officially recognize them. We still pray to these people when we ask them to pray for us. They are a good priest, or a nice neighbor, or a holy monk, or a good patient wife.

I hope you can perceive of what I am telling you.
It is a stretch to move from asking a believing friend to pray for you to continue asking after he had died.
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Old 09-15-2019, 04:55 PM
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It is a stretch to move from asking a believing friend to pray for you to continue asking after he had died.
Not if you believe he will do it when he is there. And again we pray to Saints not friends. I already explained what Saints are.
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Old 09-16-2019, 07:28 PM
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Not if you believe he will do it when he is there. And again we pray to Saints not friends. I already explained what Saints are.
Are you saying friends can't be saints, or that only your saints can be prayed to?
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Old 09-17-2019, 08:20 AM
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Are you saying friends can't be saints, or that only your saints can be prayed to?
Friends can be Saints only if you where assured by God through miracles and other signs from their lives that they are in Heaven right now. If not you have to assume that they might be in Hell. You cannot pray to people that are in Hell. While you are still alive and can help, you pray for them to get out of Hell. They need your help and cannot help you.
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Old 09-17-2019, 10:30 AM
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Friends can be Saints only if you where assured by God through miracles and other signs from their lives that they are in Heaven right now. If not you have to assume that they might be in Hell. You cannot pray to people that are in Hell. While you are still alive and can help, you pray for them to get out of Hell. They need your help and cannot help you.
So the scriptures are wrong in calling all believers saints and the real qualification is miracles? And the miracles also include the miraculous ability to hear prayers offered to them?
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Old 09-17-2019, 11:19 AM
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So the scriptures are wrong in calling all believers saints and the real qualification is miracles? And the miracles also include the miraculous ability to hear prayers offered to them?
The Scriptures are not wrong. If you know Church history you will know that some believers went apostates due to persecution. Were those Saints as well? You have to understand the language used in context. In the context of the early Church they were called saints as in believers. That does not mean that they were Saints as in "almost perfect being imbued with God and Holy Spirit to the brim". Paul writes letters to various churches (cities) and ask them to remove a lot of sins from their congregations. Were those people Saints already? Or just "saints" as in believers with issues (sins)?

Take out of the context words and phrases and you make a mess of the Bible. This is by your will or by your ignorance. If you will stay with Church teaching you will learn more.
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Old 09-17-2019, 11:35 AM
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The Scriptures are not wrong. If you know Church history you will know that some believers went apostates due to persecution. Were those Saints as well? You have to understand the language used in context. In the context of the early Church they were called saints as in believers. That does not mean that they were Saints as in "almost perfect being imbued with God and Holy Spirit to the brim". Paul writes letters to various churches (cities) and ask them to remove a lot of sins from their congregations. Were those people Saints already? Or just "saints" as in believers with issues (sins)?

Take out of the context words and phrases and you make a mess of the Bible. This is by your will or by your ignorance. If you will stay with Church teaching you will learn more.
I was ignorant with respect to how the church arrived at such a belief. I don't see any scriptural support for it so I guess it's a tradition that some of the dead have omnipresent hearing abilities.
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Old 09-17-2019, 01:01 PM
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I was ignorant with respect to how the church arrived at such a belief. I don't see any scriptural support for it so I guess it's a tradition that some of the dead have omnipresent hearing abilities.
Now who is assuming how people are in Heaven (or Hell) and what abilities they posses there or how information comes their way?

Praying to Saints is a Tradition that came from the fact that the bones or bodies of the martyrs started to perform miracles in many communities. If you would read the Lives of the Saints you will notice that at the beginning of the Church history when there was a lot of oppression and murder of Christians for the simple fact that they were Christians, the martyrs bodies were thrown all over the place. The believers collect some of them just to bury them with respect and dignity. Other martyrs revealed the location of their bodies in dreams, complete with instructions of what to do with them. That is when they observed that some of these bodies were different than others. They were smelling like holy oil or another "spiritual" aroma and they were performing miracles. More to it, they started to receive dreams from these Martyrs and Saints to bury them in certain places or about different subjects. It is all recorded. You will notice that it is very natural what occurred after, praying to them. Also this teaching is contained in the Scriptures as in this passage:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father." John 14:12

These things that Jesus speaks is the miracles of the Saints. In many recorded miracle the Saints accept the prayers of the believers. They do not stop them. Hence the Tradition. It is an organic Tradition.
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Old 09-18-2019, 03:00 PM
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Now who is assuming how people are in Heaven (or Hell) and what abilities they posses there or how information comes their way?

Praying to Saints is a Tradition that came from the fact that the bones or bodies of the martyrs started to perform miracles in many communities. If you would read the Lives of the Saints you will notice that at the beginning of the Church history when there was a lot of oppression and murder of Christians for the simple fact that they were Christians, the martyrs bodies were thrown all over the place. The believers collect some of them just to bury them with respect and dignity. Other martyrs revealed the location of their bodies in dreams, complete with instructions of what to do with them. That is when they observed that some of these bodies were different than others. They were smelling like holy oil or another "spiritual" aroma and they were performing miracles. More to it, they started to receive dreams from these Martyrs and Saints to bury them in certain places or about different subjects. It is all recorded. You will notice that it is very natural what occurred after, praying to them. Also this teaching is contained in the Scriptures as in this passage:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father." John 14:12

These things that Jesus speaks is the miracles of the Saints. In many recorded miracle the Saints accept the prayers of the believers. They do not stop them. Hence the Tradition. It is an organic Tradition.
John 14:12 applies to all believers, did someone imply otherwise?
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Old 09-18-2019, 03:09 PM
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John 14:12 applies to all believers, did someone imply otherwise?
It applies to all believers but not all believers have the same level of Faith.
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