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Old 09-14-2019, 09:33 AM
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Default Blood thinners and calcium biuld in heart



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Heres a good video telling that blood thinners cause more calcium buildup in heart

https://youtu.be/BcJCHJg9TVc
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Old 09-14-2019, 09:44 AM
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They put me on a baby aspirin a day. Shortly after starting that my left retina started to bleed. So they made me get shots in my eye (really fun looking at the needle) after about 5 of those, I ask to go off the aspirin. Boom no more shots to the eye required, yea.
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Old 09-14-2019, 10:30 AM
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Males need to be careful with calicum intake
You need nutrients like magnesium and Vitamin D to maximize calcium absorption
Study micro-nutrients and make sure you are getting what you need
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Old 09-14-2019, 12:12 PM
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Need to take magnesium and k2 with mk4 and mk7, that tells the body to put calcium into the bones
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Old 09-14-2019, 03:42 PM
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I used to take vitamin K2. I stopped after a doctor I followed found patients that took K2 didn't see an improvement in their plaque growth. it didn't slow their plaque growth.

With that said, is that good or bad. Do we want to stop the calcification of plaque from occurring. I guess that area is debatable.

Here is a physician's thoughts that I follow on this topic:

https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2016/0...isease-part-x/

excerpt:

....Calcification is certainly not a new thing. CT scans of mummies – from a number of different cultures – have demonstrated that many/most mummified bodies have large areas of arterial calcification. Ergo, CVD is most certainly not a disease of modern humanity. The mummies from Egypt are well over two thousand years old.

As you can probably tell I am not sure exactly what to make of calcification. However, I think you can probably make the following statements:

If you do a CT scan and have no demonstrable calcification – after the age of about forty to fifty – you are at very low risk of dying of CVD
If you have a high CAC score this means that you have been developing plaques for quite a while, and therefore (unless you change something) you are at high risk of dying of CVD. [However, bear in mind that CAC represents your history, not necessarily your future].
Calcification can reverse. Vitamin K2s (Menaquinones) seem to be more protective/able to reverse calcification than Vitamin K1. Menaquinones are primarily found in meat and dairy-based foods and fermented soybeans (known as natto, commonly consumed in Japan)
Calcification is not a cause of CVD, it is (or seems to be) the final stage of plaque development. It may be a protective mechanism to stabilise plaques.
There is no evidence, that I am aware of, that if you reverse calcification you improve CVD risk. But it seems likely there would be benefit.
Sorry, I am not sure if that is very helpful, but I thought I had to discuss calcification in this series.
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Old 09-14-2019, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by greif View Post
Heres a good video telling that blood thinners cause more calcium buildup in heart

https://youtu.be/BcJCHJg9TVc
To the best of my knowledge there is no study that shows coumadin leads to increased calcification in the arteries.

There were other studies which showed this as something for further study, but no study to date that I am aware of was/has been designed to test for this. All such is results were casually observed.

That being said...

If you are taking coumadin (or other blood thinners), you are taking it because the risk of the condition is greater than the risks posed by the medication. Abrupt stopping of the medication will likely result in a shorter expected life span than a continued adherence.

That being said...

The number one modifiable risk factor is nicotine exposure.

That being said...

It blows my mind how many times I speak to a patient who has some genuine concerns of worsening side effects of a medication like the above and continues smoking...
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Old 09-14-2019, 04:47 PM
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Nicotine is not particularity harmful and some longevity enthusiasts injest it
They do not smoke, so, no, nicotine is not a great risk, let alone the #1 modifiable risk factor
That is false
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Old 09-14-2019, 04:58 PM
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Calcification can reverse. Vitamin K2s (Menaquinones) seem to be more protective/able to reverse calcification than Vitamin K1. Menaquinones are primarily found in meat and dairy-based foods and fermented soybeans (known as natto, commonly consumed in Japan)

Calcification is not a cause of CVD, it is (or seems to be) the final stage of plaque development. It may be a protective mechanism to stabilise plaques.
There is no evidence, that I am aware of, that if you reverse calcification you improve CVD risk. But it seems likely there would be benefit.
Sorry, I am not sure if that is very helpful, but I thought I had to discuss calcification in this series.
Crestor is the most potent drug able to reverse atherosclerosis. After about 1 year, one can expect about a 7% improvement in the diameter of the measured arteries.

If one is able to reduce open the artery, one would have improved blood flow thus reducing the severity of the disease. This principle of plaque elimination is the reason surgeries such as a carotid or a femoral endarterectomy would be performed.

You are right in that calcification is not the cause of CVD or PVD, but that is because it is the defining characteristics of CVD or PVD. Narrowing, be it a soft plaque or hard plaque, it does the same thing to the ability of the blood to get to where it is trying to get to. And, when a plaque rupture occurs, you have your embolitic event that leads to a stroke, MI...

My experience in vascular surgery (which is a extensive), there is no predictive mechanism which signifies a soft or hard plaque formation. However the hardest plaques I have encountered are mostly found in the distal end of the illiac and around the femoral junction of the profunda.
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Old 09-14-2019, 04:59 PM
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Nicotine is not particularity harmful and some longevity enthusiasts injest it
They do not smoke, so, no, nicotine is not a great risk, let alone the #1 modifiable risk factor
That is false
That's odd, it seems most of my vascular surgeries are on those who have a smoking history...
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Old 09-15-2019, 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Im RIght View Post
Crestor is the most potent drug able to reverse atherosclerosis. After about 1 year, one can expect about a 7% improvement in the diameter of the measured arteries.

If one is able to reduce open the artery, one would have improved blood flow thus reducing the severity of the disease. This principle of plaque elimination is the reason surgeries such as a carotid or a femoral endarterectomy would be performed.

You are right in that calcification is not the cause of CVD or PVD, but that is because it is the defining characteristics of CVD or PVD. Narrowing, be it a soft plaque or hard plaque, it does the same thing to the ability of the blood to get to where it is trying to get to. And, when a plaque rupture occurs, you have your embolitic event that leads to a stroke, MI...

My experience in vascular surgery (which is a extensive), there is no predictive mechanism which signifies a soft or hard plaque formation. However the hardest plaques I have encountered are mostly found in the distal end of the illiac and around the femoral junction of the profunda.
Aren't you worried about Cestor's side effects, muscles pains, joint pains, etc? I remember reading articles about that study. It was many years ago. It might have been called the Jupiter study. Don't recall.

That was the big complaint from what I recall, the Cestor dosage needed to achieve a calcium plaque reversal was significantly higher than typically given. It was thought few could take such a high dose of Cestor for a long period of time and be able to handle the muscle aches and pains. I guess more power to someone that is able to do that. It isn't something I'd want to try personally.

I personally do two items that have been mentioned for calcium plaque reversal. Some small studies were done on aged garlic that found in some patients slower calcium growth, and in a few instances reversal. I also sun bathe for 5 minutes or so. A doctor found his patients often saw plaque reversal in patients with raised vitamin D, sun exposure. Don't know if both activities do me much good overall. Well, I guess they do have me feeling good. Some studies have found sun exposure can potentially extend life by 5 years or so. a little on that can be read here:

Sunbathing is good for you

https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2016/0...-good-for-you/

I also take a nitric oxide supplement. NO has been found good for the heard and have read some about it helping prevent plaque growth. I'm not sure if it does me much good also, but the NO does certainly have me feeling healthier, breathing easier, and more energetic which I'm thankful for.
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Old 09-15-2019, 05:36 AM
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That's odd, it seems most of my vascular surgeries are on those who have a smoking history...
So is it the nictotine or the other byproducts of smoking cigarettes that is the problem?????

"What the Experts Say
Many researchers are beginning to question whether nicotine is any more harmful than a daily dose of caffeine. To date, there have been studies showing positive effects of nicotine, including decreased tension and increased thinking, as well as the stimulant's potential in warding off cognitive decline into Alzheimer's, delaying the progression of Parkinson's disease, and as a therapeutic approach for ADHD and schizophrenia."

https://www.verywellmind.com/nicotin...on-101-2825018

The longevity nootropic usage I have seen are nicotine sticks for use in coffee
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Old 09-16-2019, 03:43 AM
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Greif--

Can't get the video to open (limited Internet)

Is this calcification in patients on blood thinners for any reason, or just those with artificial heart valves, elevated cholesterol/triglycerides, or?

Is it all blood thinners, or just the old/established ones? Or specific new ones? Is it blood thinners alone, or blood thinners when used with other heart, cholesterol, etc. drugs?

Thanks.
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Old 09-16-2019, 11:50 AM
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It's always better to get your vitamins from a natural source, not some pill. If you need vitamin D, which most men do as they get older, eat eggs (yolk), salmon, tuna, oysters, shrimp, mushrooms, etc.


Same goes for other vitamins and minerals. Your body will get more benefit from eating leafy greens and other fruits and veggies, than taking a supplement.
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Old 09-16-2019, 07:16 PM
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Old fart, this Dr says vitamin k antagonist specifically warfarin
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Old 09-16-2019, 07:37 PM
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If you're on blood thinners or other drugs and have concerns about cardiac arterial buildup, most larger imagery centers offer a low cost cardiac calcium scan. Usually less than $100, doesn't need a script, and takes literally ten minutes.

Worth the piece of mind to know where you score.
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Old 09-16-2019, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Im RIght View Post
That's odd, it seems most of my vascular surgeries are on those who have a smoking history...
I did 2 1/2 packs per day of Marlboro reds for many many years. I now sport 6 stents in my chest.
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Old 09-16-2019, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Cranberry View Post

Aren't you worried about Cestor's side effects, muscles pains, joint pains, etc? I remember reading articles about that study. It was many years ago. It might have been called the Jupiter study. Don't recall.
1. Nothing is without risks. There is a risk of the condition, and risk of the medication. I would not advise someone to just take a medication without reasons. If one has elevated cholesterol, or other risk factors such as diabeties, stents or events, then the benefits typically out weight the risks.

2. Muscle pains are not permanent. If the myalgia is too great, stop the mediation. And, for someone with few medical options, no one's ever died of muscle pain... (although rabdo is a rare possibility but I think you get my point).

3. Crestor (and livalo) is more hydrophilic than all the statins, this makes the muscle pains less probable.

4. Lower doeses, or every other day dosing along with CoQ10 do a great job of eliminating the muscle pains from statins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cranberry View Post
That was the big complaint from what I recall, the Crestor dosage needed to achieve a calcium plaque reversal was significantly higher than typically given. It was thought few could take such a high dose of Crestor for a long period of time and be able to handle the muscle aches and pains. I guess more power to someone that is able to do that. It isn't something I'd want to try personally.
There is some theory it is not necessarily the drug, but the low LDL concentrations that allow for the plaque regression. Crestor is the most potent statin which is why it was used in the studies. Rapatha howver is an injectable that works in a much different way and is far greater at LDL reduction than even crestor.

https://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/...aque-buildup#2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cranberry View Post
I personally do two items that have been mentioned for calcium plaque reversal. Some small studies were done on aged garlic that found in some patients slower calcium growth, and in a few instances reversal. I also sun bathe for 5 minutes or so. A doctor found his patients often saw plaque reversal in patients with raised vitamin D, sun exposure. Don't know if both activities do me much good overall. Well, I guess they do have me feeling good. Some studies have found sun exposure can potentially extend life by 5 years or so. a little on that can be read here:
There is no game of just winners. If you consider the sun as a "medication" in how you are administering it for the benefits, there are risks as well. One must gauge their own risk tolerances to determine if the benefits are worth it as you did with crestor above.
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Old 09-16-2019, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
So is it the nictotine or the other byproducts of smoking cigarettes that is the problem?????

"What the Experts Say
Many researchers are beginning to question whether nicotine is any more harmful than a daily dose of caffeine. To date, there have been studies showing positive effects of nicotine, including decreased tension and increased thinking, as well as the stimulant's potential in warding off cognitive decline into Alzheimer's, delaying the progression of Parkinson's disease, and as a therapeutic approach for ADHD and schizophrenia."

https://www.verywellmind.com/nicotin...on-101-2825018

The longevity nootropic usage I have seen are nicotine sticks for use in coffee
You are conflating points. Plaque formation from nicotine exposure and potential benefits from its use; they are not mutually exclusive.

Oral consumption of nicotine, transdermal patches, vape... all have the same cardiovascular risks. Nicotine does what nicotine does, vasoconstriction and hypertension, and long term prolong exposure will lead to heart disease.

Consider these 2 facts:
1. hypertension will lead to cardiac disease.
2. Manipulation of the artery walls through through vasoconstriction while under increased pressure will increase the velocity of the blood flow (and turbulence) which will increases the probability of a plaque rupture in the manipulated artery (think high pressure water stream vs low pressure stream) which will ultimately lead to a thrombus and CV event once a rupture occurs.

Studies to date continue to show increased risk of CVD from orally consumed nicotine. I agree the byproducts in smoke do not help the situation, but chewing tobacco is well studied as modifiable CVD risk factor.
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Old 09-16-2019, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old fart View Post
Greif--

Can't get the video to open (limited Internet)

Is this calcification in patients on blood thinners for any reason, or just those with artificial heart valves, elevated cholesterol/triglycerides, or?

Is it all blood thinners, or just the old/established ones? Or specific new ones? Is it blood thinners alone, or blood thinners when used with other heart, cholesterol, etc. drugs?

Thanks.
The premise is coumadin. But is a theory at this point. There is still no study designed to test for this. It was a casual finding in other studies not designed to test for this.

Quote:
Thus, reduced expression of the vitamin K-dependent proteins which physiologically inhibit calcification of cellular matrix could be postulated to lead to vascular calcification. Published clinical data, describing at present a few thousand patients, need to be supplemented with controlled studies to confirm this interesting hypothesis.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28639365
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Old 09-16-2019, 10:57 PM
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So it is unknown whether the connection is causation, correlation, confounding, outlier from something else, etc. Although most likely one of the first two...
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