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Old 08-19-2019, 07:39 PM
cat_1978 cat_1978 is online now
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"Now God worked unusual miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them. 13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, [a]“We [b]exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches.” 14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so.

15 And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?

16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, [c]overpowered them, and prevailed against [d]them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17 This became known both to all Jews and Greeks dwelling in Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified."
Acts 19:11-17

In the light of the other threads that delved into denominations talk maybe we can try in this thread to put questions about Bible related subjects without adding our denomination or Church affiliation in the foreground. I am game in the spirit that Jesus is known and Paul is known also but we are less known or important.

First I notice in the verses above that objects were imbued with the Holy Spirit power coming from Paul. Can anyone explain why or if they also have heard of objects like that in their tradition. We do not need to name our traditions just to talk about what is in them.

In my church tradition we certainly have objects and even bodies that are imbued with Holy Spirit powers. Some might not be real (but who knows who is what), but if they perform miracles than you know for sure you have encounter genuine relics.
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Old 08-20-2019, 11:10 AM
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I have never seen or heard of in my "tradition" any objects being inbued with that kind of "power." Not to say it is not possible, I just have not seen it or heard of it. I believe it certainly happened in Paul's time as Scripture is clear about it. God calls them "Special miracles" by the hands of Paul. Its not mentioned about anyone else.

I have heard about "demons" being cast out of people by Missionaries and such. In every case i know of the missionary was a born again believer in Jesus Christ. But i have no first hand experience nor witnessed it.

In the case of the the itinerant (vagabond in the KJV) Jewish exorcists, the Bible doesn't say they were Christian or believers in Christ. They used the name of Paul in a manner that seems to indicate they didn't know Jesus Christ as Savior. If so, then they didn't have the Holy Spirit indwelling them as He does every believer. So the evil spirit, demon possessed person recognized this and was able to beat them. Had they been true believers there would have been a different ending, Scripture says
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1Jn 4:4* Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
The evil spirit would have recognized the Holy Spirit indwelling them and not been able to beat them. The Jewish exorcists might still not have been able to cast them out though as seen in other passages of Scripture.
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Old 08-20-2019, 01:26 PM
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Jesus said Matthew 7;21,22,23,
Not every one that says to me Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven but he that does the will of the Father. and many will say but we have done many wonderful work healed the sick raised the dead and cast out demons in your name ,and I will turn to them and say depart from me you who work iniquity , I never knew you .
Having results using the power of Jesus name does not certify ones relationship with God . That action only proves you know the power of his name, that's all.
Jesus provided the Holy Spirit to teach in His place .
Men are not to be teaching others in God's place.
Men are to be broadcasting that "because of Jesus and his sacrifice for man and His provision for the Holy Spirit, God can now teach man one on one. "
In my beginning as a youth I full well knew the power of Jesus name but I had "not" actually come under His Lordship. I was doing what was right in my own eyes and those of my teachers. noble or not it was wrong.
I learned that I needed the infilling of the Holy Spirit and to KNOW HIS VOICE and when that occurred I began to seek His will before taking action, if any, and in the way He instructs me.
Jesus did not heal every one exactly the same He dealt with individuals and their unique needs.
Jesus said I only do what my Father tells me. He is our example .
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Old 08-21-2019, 12:27 AM
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I get tickled every time I read these scriptures because it tells me that folks better be sure of their standing with God before they "go forth" to do His work. These guys were surely shocked when they got whooped on. But it shows that without the power of the Holy Spirit, we are not useful nor capable of understanding the TRUE battlefield or God Himself.
As far as inanimate objects having POWER to heal, IMHO, the whole story is not being stated here. It was Paul's FAITH/PRAYERS that brought the healing. Just like the woman who said "If I can just touch the hymn of His garment", or the roman centurion that wanted Jesus to heal his servant, and said "If Jesus would just speak the healing into existence" and the person was healed. Jesus commended him for his faith. One time Jesus used mud to work a healing.
Objects have no power by themselves. It is always God working thru these things, sometimes even though the receivers faith is minimal.
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Old 08-21-2019, 07:25 AM
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I get tickled every time I read these scriptures because it tells me that folks better be sure of their standing with God before they "go forth" to do His work. These guys were surely shocked when they got whooped on. But it shows that without the power of the Holy Spirit, we are not useful nor capable of understanding the TRUE battlefield or God Himself.
As far as inanimate objects having POWER to heal, IMHO, the whole story is not being stated here. It was Paul's FAITH/PRAYERS that brought the healing. Just like the woman who said "If I can just touch the hymn of His garment", or the roman centurion that wanted Jesus to heal his servant, and said "If Jesus would just speak the healing into existence" and the person was healed. Jesus commended him for his faith. One time Jesus used mud to work a healing.
Objects have no power by themselves. It is always God working thru these things, sometimes even though the receivers faith is minimal.
Exactly. The power of a relic does not reside in the relic itself or with the relic outside the prayers of the Saint that the relic belongs to. That is why we ask for the prayers of the Saint when we touch the relic or "pray" at the relic. It is not a prayer of worship as we do for God, but a prayer of hope in receiving the help and the attention of the Saint in our daily troubles or our spiritual troubles.
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Old 09-02-2019, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by cat_1978 View Post
"Now God worked unusual miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them. 13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, [a]“We [b]exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches.” 14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so.

15 And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?

16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, [c]overpowered them, and prevailed against [d]them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17 This became known both to all Jews and Greeks dwelling in Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified."
Acts 19:11-17

In the light of the other threads that delved into denominations talk maybe we can try in this thread to put questions about Bible related subjects without adding our denomination or Church affiliation in the foreground. I am game in the spirit that Jesus is known and Paul is known also but we are less known or important.

First I notice in the verses above that objects were imbued with the Holy Spirit power coming from Paul. Can anyone explain why or if they also have heard of objects like that in their tradition. We do not need to name our traditions just to talk about what is in them.

In my church tradition we certainly have objects and even bodies that are imbued with Holy Spirit powers. Some might not be real (but who knows who is what), but if they perform miracles than you know for sure you have encounter genuine relics.
Did the evil spirit know Jesus and Paul for eternity or was there a point in time when the spirit did NOT know Jesus and did NOT know Paul until AFTER he learned of them and got to know them? It would be like an old family acquaintance saying to you: "I know your mom and I know your dad but who are you?" Once you explained to the person who you are ... he could add you to his list of "people he knows."

My religious beliefs don't incorporate traditions. They aren't necessary for receiving salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

As for "healing relics" ... the passage above reflects items that the Apostle Paul used during his ministry for the purpose of healing and casting out evil spirits. There is no indication that he sold them or that anyone else used objects for the same purpose.
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Old 09-02-2019, 08:34 AM
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Did the evil spirit know Jesus and Paul for eternity or was there a point in time when the spirit did NOT know Jesus and did NOT know Paul until AFTER he learned of them and got to know them? It would be like an old family acquaintance saying to you: "I know your mom and I know your dad but who are you?" Once you explained to the person who you are ... he could add you to his list of "people he knows."
The spirits recognized God power in Paul, that was given to him by Jesus, and they recognized Jesus as God. They did not recognize Jesus power in those wannabe "wonder workers" that got beaten afterwords.

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My religious beliefs don't incorporate traditions. They aren't necessary for receiving salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
Traditions are like large stones in a river. If they are placed right it can get you and many others weaker than you safely over the water. Some Traditions are coming from God. Some not. You will need to find the Church that has the correct Traditions. If you go without traditions you will find yourself at the mercy of your tortured soul, that today may be happy and tomorrow may be depressive. Your theology will not be higher than your moods.


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As for "healing relics" ... the passage above reflects items that the Apostle Paul used during his ministry for the purpose of healing and casting out evil spirits. There is no indication that he sold them or that anyone else used objects for the same purpose.
You are absolutely right. The objects should be free to give for people that would like their faith enhanced by whatever means. At the Orthodox Church you receive cheaper objects (paper icons, plastic crosses, little booklets, etc,) FREE of CHARGE. Go to ANY Orthodox Church and you will see them free of charge. For more expensive objects that require artistry or noble material (wood, metal, real paint) the cost cannot be covered entirely by the Church (for lack of infinite funds) so they cost some money. In fact these more expensive objects to produce are used as a "charity gathering effort" to let the donor give charity (so do a good deed) and at the same time get a real good quality object to enhance his faith or to use as a gift to enhance other people's faith. What is wrong about that?
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Old 09-02-2019, 10:32 AM
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=cat_1978;19751460]The spirits recognized God power in Paul, that was given to him by Jesus, and they recognized Jesus as God. They did not recognize Jesus power in those wannabe "wonder workers" that got beaten afterwords.
Okay. I can see your point. If someone is going around representing God but are charlatans or fakers then the Spirit will clearly be absent from their person.


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Traditions are like large stones in a river. If they are placed right it can get you and many others weaker than you safely over the water. Some Traditions are coming from God. Some not. You will need to find the Church that has the correct Traditions. If you go without traditions you will find yourself at the mercy of your tortured soul, that today may be happy and tomorrow may be depressive. Your theology will not be higher than your moods.
Traditions are perfectly fine if they're completely represented in Holy Scripture and in line with the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. They should also be demonstrated by Christ and His disciples. If a tradition doesn't meet this criteria then it's man-made and completely suspect.

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You are absolutely right. The objects should be free to give for people that would like their faith enhanced by whatever means. At the Orthodox Church you receive cheaper objects (paper icons, plastic crosses, little booklets, etc,) FREE of CHARGE. Go to ANY Orthodox Church and you will see them free of charge. For more expensive objects that require artistry or noble material (wood, metal, real paint) the cost cannot be covered entirely by the Church (for lack of infinite funds) so they cost some money. In fact these more expensive objects to produce are used as a "charity gathering effort" to let the donor give charity (so do a good deed) and at the same time get a real good quality object to enhance his faith or to use as a gift to enhance other people's faith. What is wrong about that?

1 John 5:21, "Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen."

Isaiah 44:9-20, "They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed."

Leviticus 19:4, "Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God."

1 Corinthians 10:14, "Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry."

Jeremiah 11:12, "Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble."


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Strong's Concordance - #G1497 - "idols":

an image, likeness

i.e. whatever represents the form of an object, either real or imaginary

used of the shades of the departed, apparitions, spectres, phantoms of the mind, etc.

the image of an heathen god

a false god
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...gs=G1497&t=KJV

The Bible is pretty clear on the subject. A person's faith should be in the Person of Jesus Christ. No crutch should be necessary.
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Old 09-02-2019, 03:22 PM
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Some church traditions send out prayer scarves or prayer cloths? I remember once getting something like that in the mail from somewhere....and then them asking for $$$. Surprise, surprise. But while some places may try to make a quick buck off it....I'm sure there are similar things that are real. It's just not something I have had experience with.

My spiritual mentor prays over olive oil for a time, and then uses it to annoint people, and then to anoint + set apart places. Like he sometimes gets called when a person sees a demon in their home, so he will go and pray in the house, and anoint the doors and windows....setting the home apart for God's work and for God's people....and the oil represents the Holy Spirit, and His guarding + protecting of the home + the inhabitants within. It's not a tradition I am used to, but it's not something I am against. And I've been anointed by him and by his wife, as have my children and my husband. He said it wasn't that the oil was magical or had special properties, but that it represented prayers, and represented the Holy Spirit + His power. They are from more of a Pentecostal type background, but as Paul said, they become alll things to all people (1 corinthians 9:22).
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Old 09-02-2019, 03:25 PM
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The spirits recognized God power in Paul, that was given to him by Jesus, and they recognized Jesus as God. They did not recognize Jesus power in those wannabe "wonder workers" that got beaten afterwords.
Yes, this is exactly how I read this, and how I was taught, too.
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Old 09-03-2019, 10:04 AM
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I get tickled every time I read these scriptures because it tells me that folks better be sure of their standing with God before they "go forth" to do His work. These guys were surely shocked when they got whooped on. But it shows that without the power of the Holy Spirit, we are not useful nor capable of understanding the TRUE battlefield or God Himself.
As far as inanimate objects having POWER to heal, IMHO, the whole story is not being stated here. It was Paul's FAITH/PRAYERS that brought the healing. Just like the woman who said "If I can just touch the hymn of His garment", or the roman centurion that wanted Jesus to heal his servant, and said "If Jesus would just speak the healing into existence" and the person was healed. Jesus commended him for his faith. One time Jesus used mud to work a healing.
Objects have no power by themselves. It is always God working thru these things, sometimes even though the receivers faith is minimal.
Have you ever seen the film "The Conjuring?" In the film - which is based on the experiences of the Warrens, there is a room in their house filled with objects which are either cursed, or have demons attached to them.

Do you believe that is possible? Or if not, why?
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Old 09-03-2019, 10:15 AM
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Some church traditions send out prayer scarves or prayer cloths? I remember once getting something like that in the mail from somewhere....and then them asking for $$$. Surprise, surprise. But while some places may try to make a quick buck off it....I'm sure there are similar things that are real. It's just not something I have had experience with.

My spiritual mentor prays over olive oil for a time, and then uses it to annoint people, and then to anoint + set apart places. Like he sometimes gets called when a person sees a demon in their home, so he will go and pray in the house, and anoint the doors and windows....setting the home apart for God's work and for God's people....and the oil represents the Holy Spirit, and His guarding + protecting of the home + the inhabitants within. It's not a tradition I am used to, but it's not something I am against. And I've been anointed by him and by his wife, as have my children and my husband. He said it wasn't that the oil was magical or had special properties, but that it represented prayers, and represented the Holy Spirit + His power. They are from more of a Pentecostal type background, but as Paul said, they become alll things to all people (1 corinthians 9:22).
Anointing with oil, and blessing of homes are also done in the Catholic Church. I have seen its ability to drive out evil.
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Old 09-03-2019, 12:34 PM
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Traditions are perfectly fine if they're completely represented in Holy Scripture and in line with the teachings of Christ and the Apostles
They are:

"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."

Many other things which Jesus did and probably said.

"And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.
38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?
39 He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour."


Please give the transcript of the entire conversation between Jesus and the two Apostles. If not listen to what the Apostles said later to their Disciples.
You just have to listen to the Apostles and what they said to their disciples (to the early church) and not be stubborn and in deep unbelief.

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They should also be demonstrated by Christ and His disciples. If a tradition doesn't meet this criteria then it's man-made and completely suspect.
True.

Please refer yourself to the Church Tradition (the Church was established at Pentecost) from which the Scriptures come. You will find in there the correct interpretation for many passages that speak about these traditions. However, if you persist in interpreting yourself everything and have yourself as an infallible Pope, then you will suffer error in your ways.

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Originally Posted by ActionJackson View Post
1 John 5:21, "Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen."

Isaiah 44:9-20, "They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed."

Leviticus 19:4, "Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God."

1 Corinthians 10:14, "Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry."

Jeremiah 11:12, "Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble."
I already gave passage where objects were used for their miracle working ability. These are not idols (ex. Paul's handkerchiefs). They are tokens of God's power. The God that we worship. Idols are OTHER Gods. OTHER, as in not this God. Got it? O.T.H.E.R. There is no smaller spelling, or I will try it just for you.

Also this:

"And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years. She had suffered a great deal under the care of many doctors and had spent all she had, yet instead of getting better she grew worse. When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, because she thought, “If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed.” Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering."


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Originally Posted by ActionJackson View Post
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...gs=G1497&t=KJV

The Bible is pretty clear on the subject. A person's faith should be in the Person of Jesus Christ. No crutch should be necessary.
No crutch is necessary. Nor are they forbidden.

"He replied, "Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

Can you say you can move mountains? Well until you can any help is good for your faith. If you do not think you need help at least do no deny other peoples needs for this help.

And do not say the Traditional Church is idolater because without this Church you will be a pagan today, you and all your relatives back to 2000 years ago.

In fact give a small "thank you" to the Traditional Church for your faith (as much as it is) because besides God, Church efforts should also be recognized in spreading Christianity on Earth.
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