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Old 02-06-2019, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by AK103K View Post
Im not sure what youre getting at with the last two pics of someone holding the Shockwave at eye level, but thats not any kind of ready/moving/shooting position Im referring to, and not how I would be shooting it. That would be an "aimed" longer range position, but not what I would use for something say, 10 yards or so and in.

Unless you actually get one in your hands, and learn how to use it, or at least have some real experience with it, we will never get beyond where we are now in discussing it.

You keep telling us how to do something you have no experience with, so dont get butthurt if some of us keep pressing that fact. Its just what it is.

Some of us do have experience with both types, and can talk about both from experience. Once you get there, we can have a more intelligent and informed discussion, dont you think?

Otherwise, youre just telling me Coke is better than Pepsi, but youve never tasted Pepsi to actually know it is.
So, how are YOU going to shoot it, at "close range" where aiming is needed? I'm genuinely curious.

I've never had cancer. I still know that I don't want it. I can read. I can watch videos. I can research.

There are two ways to shoot it. Eye level (not recommended, but most practical for aiming). Or hip or waist shooting, which is far less accurate.

Folks keep trying to justify a poor choice for a long gun substitute for "most situations." I see it as a novelty or only really useful for ultra compact carry for mobile security forces.

I've watched dozens of videos and have yet to see anyone be able to use it as FAST and EFFECTIVELY as a shouldered shotgun. There's ALWAYS caveats about ergonomic issues, getting hit in the face, losing control, poor accuracy, recoil pains, warnings against using 3" shells due to recoil, and shooting your own hand, and so forth. Notes that it does "NOT tend to lend itself to moving and shooting well," from Mr. Guns N Gear. Sootch states, "a lot more control with the stock for sure.... much harder to control, not a good choice for self defense..." NutNFancy loves it, and says it's outstanding but would not pick it except for niche purposes; fun, would buy, but only for narrow set of reasons.

Never seen a traditional shotgun reviewer with the same caveats.

I again concede the birdshead is an IMPROVEMENT to the crappy PGO. But it's still notably worse than a shoulder stock. Stocks offer 3 or 4 points of contact, vs. the birdshead with just 2 points of contact.

https://youtu.be/EDAiYCdt0BE

https://youtu.be/y5hh0EpRy44

https://youtu.be/T4xCNfPDIlo
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Old 02-07-2019, 07:50 AM
AK103K AK103K is offline
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Originally Posted by Jlrhiner View Post
Ok, for me, if you would, find and post a picture of what you're talking about. The last two pics are pretty much the only way I can see shooting that configuration of shot gun. At least with any semblance of aim.
This is about the closest I could find, but its still not right.



The only difference in the way I shoot it, is my shoulders are square to the target, both elbows are tight to the body, and the gun is held in close to the body, and on the centerline of the body, at just above the solar plexus. The stance is more stable and aggressive.

Its basically the same stance as you would have with a handgun, when presented from a SUL or a tight midchest ready position.

Most of how you see people shooting them is either with the gun held low and to the side, which as you might expect, doesnt work to well and isnt as instinctive.

Or with the gun held at eye level, and the weak hand/arm thrust out, like is the current fashion with things like the AR's.

Not saying the latter doesnt work, and especially at longer ranges, when youre using the sights to aim, but its not my favorite way to shot the gun.

If you practice "unaimed" (or more correctly, dont use the sights to aim the gun) shooting with a handgun, you will understand how things work, and things are very similar with the Shockwave.

I shot this yesterday with a Glock 17. A bit more than half of what you see there, was fired from a position very similar to what Im describing for the Shockwave (started from SUL, and fired with the gun held below eye level, on the centerline of the body, with shoulders squared to the target and elbows tight to the body, and shot in 2-3 round bursts), and from about the same distances, about 10 yards and in. Most of what youre looking at was from around 5-7 yards.

There are about 100 rounds on that target, and most of them, were not aimed in a traditional manner using the sights to index the gun. Just to stress, you don't always have to use or consciously use the sights to get good hits.



If I were using the Shockwave, the target would look similar, with similar hits at the same distances. I dont look at the sights or gun, just the target and where I want the rounds to go.


This is basically, just old school Rex Applegate instintive handgun, SMG type shooting, adapted to the Shockwave.

Im a big fan of the "Bruce Lee Method" on learning and doing things. Ive also been around long enough, to have learned a lot of the "older" ways of doing things, when they were the current and accepted fashion, and have experience with them as they came and went.

As much as some things change with fashion, a lot of the old stuff is still very much applicable, even if it isnt as cool and whats in fashion now.

Using Bruces method of learning as much as you can, about as much as you can, and then take from all that, and applying the parts of each that are useful to you, and work best for you, and constantly learning and moving forward, is the best way to go.

Thats what is happening here for me with the Shockwave. Im just adapting things I learned before that work well for me with other things, and applying them here.

Or, you can listen to people who have little or no experience or training, or learned one fixed way to do something, telling you what youre doing cant possibly work, and stagnate, and stay where you are.

If something like the Shockwave interests you, by all means, get one and learn how to actually use it. If not, then dont.

If you do, and just like anything else, it will take some time, effort, and some work to get good with it, but the more you learn it, the easier it gets. Theres no doubt, its a niche type gun, but in that niche, it can be a formidable weapon, if "you" are.

A
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Old 02-07-2019, 09:41 AM
Dusty Bones Dusty Bones is offline
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If them firearms are going to be used for real then regular hand held light techniques for self loading rifle or pistol won’t work. So you’ll have to mount a light. You will not be able to use a light and use a pump action firearm at the same time. Mines mounted left side so at close range the impact is slightly to the right of the hotspot. Not even enough to worry about.

With the shooting technique AK is describing and when used with a light, you won’t miss unless all you ever do is watch idiots wag their jaw about how inexperienced they are so they don’t like it. Wtf ever happened to learning how to shoot over just watching idiots in videos online. That’s someone’s end all evidence? Lol, ok.

Oh but what if it’s day light? Can’t use the hot spot now. Well the shooting technique AK is describing works out to 20 yards for me. Well beyond your being able to defend use of lethal force distances.
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Old 02-07-2019, 11:05 AM
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When I was young and impressionable, Fairbairn and Sykes "Shooting to Live" was the training manual and guys like Bill Jordan and Rex were the idols, so I'm very good at instinctive shooting.

The methods you're describing are basically the same as used with any "sawed-off" shotgun and your application is in common with my experience with short-barreled shotguns. The only difference is that with a short stocked shotgun, the excess stock is left to protrude rearward between the body and arm. The wheel is not re-invented. Use is basically the same, with the difference being that if you did need to shoulder the gun, with the Shockwave/Tac14/Wilson et al, you cannot.

At 10' or less, I agree with you completely. Very effective tool doing exactly what it was designed for. Lethal and reasonably accurate when fired as you've described. Even out (IMHO) to 30'. Using one past 30' in a defensive situation without being able to shoulder it would be very dicey.

Now sure, you can take steps to decrease pattern size past reasonable self defense range (eg, taping the wads, wax matrix etc.) but doing all that decreases pattern size at close range. Now you're carrying 2 types of ammo.

So to summarize, (and correct me if I'm wrong) you use and shoot your Shockwave as a defensive weapon, utilizing classical instinctive shooting methods, at rational defensive deadly force range. You have practiced this, and are good at it, feeling confidence in the platform and your abilities with it.

If my summary is correct, I agree with what you've said.

Now here's my opinion. Everything you described can also be done with an 18" barreled short stocked shotgun. Being employed in exactly the same methods as you described above. Same style of use, same level of comfort in firing, slightly better ballistics. The only real difference is the ability to shoulder one, and the conceal-ability of the other.

I don't think we're as far apart as it sounds.
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Old 02-07-2019, 11:28 AM
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The answer isn't universal. Some people train and do fine with other shooting styles. If you need to shoulder a weapon to be effective then do so.

When I turned 12 my dad gave me a H&R Topper 12 gauge single shot to pass shoot doves with instead of the 22/410 Savage I had been using. My Sis has both. He didn't reload 410's and he was tired of buying them at 3x the price. "You're 12 its a 12" That light weight shotgun beat the hell out of me. During dove season I was black and blue from about the nipple to my elbow.

One of my dad's friend kid came home on leave from Vietnam when I was 13. Airborne Ranger Green Beret - tunnel rat. Dad furnished him a shotgun and ammo to hunt doves with. I went along as I was out of school. He taught me how to hold and shoot that shotgun off my shoulder and not get the snot beat out of me. My last season before we moved at 14 I could limit out with a box of shells. Less than 2 rounds per bird.
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Old 02-07-2019, 04:14 PM
AK103K AK103K is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jlrhiner View Post
When I was young and impressionable, Fairbairn and Sykes "Shooting to Live" was the training manual and guys like Bill Jordan and Rex were the idols, so I'm very good at instinctive shooting.

The methods you're describing are basically the same as used with any "sawed-off" shotgun and your application is in common with my experience with short-barreled shotguns. The only difference is that with a short stocked shotgun, the excess stock is left to protrude rearward between the body and arm. The wheel is not re-invented. Use is basically the same, with the difference being that if you did need to shoulder the gun, with the Shockwave/Tac14/Wilson et al, you cannot.

At 10' or less, I agree with you completely. Very effective tool doing exactly what it was designed for. Lethal and reasonably accurate when fired as you've described. Even out (IMHO) to 30'. Using one past 30' in a defensive situation without being able to shoulder it would be very dicey.

Now sure, you can take steps to decrease pattern size past reasonable self defense range (eg, taping the wads, wax matrix etc.) but doing all that decreases pattern size at close range. Now you're carrying 2 types of ammo.

So to summarize, (and correct me if I'm wrong) you use and shoot your Shockwave as a defensive weapon, utilizing classical instinctive shooting methods, at rational defensive deadly force range. You have practiced this, and are good at it, feeling confidence in the platform and your abilities with it.

If my summary is correct, I agree with what you've said.

Now here's my opinion. Everything you described can also be done with an 18" barreled short stocked shotgun. Being employed in exactly the same methods as you described above. Same style of use, same level of comfort in firing, slightly better ballistics. The only real difference is the ability to shoulder one, and the conceal-ability of the other.

I don't think we're as far apart as it sounds.
Yup. were pretty much on the same page all around.

30' or so would pretty much be my limit as well, before I want to start to actually "aim" it.

At longer ranges, I would prefer a stock, but raising the Shockwave to eye level still works, I just dont find it comfortable or natural. Still, it works.

Not having a "stock", the Shockwave allows you to get the gun into the centerline of the body, and used more like a handgun. It also tends to keep things more compact.

This is all basically academic too, as Ive repeatably said, a shotgun is still my last choice for anything but hunting, and I have other tools for the job in the house, and they are always readily available. About the only way Id actually use the Shockwave, was if it just happened to be in my hands at the moment, and was loaded. Something its generally not.

For me, the Shockwave is really just another toy, and just another learning/ training opportunity. But that last part, I have taken seriously. Its not a toy in the hands of someone who is familiar with it, and can shoot it, and most should be able too.

If I were a "shotgun" shooter like you, Id probably get one and learn to shoot it at things your buddies would balk at, just to make them say "WTF! You cant do that!".

Nothing really very productive, but still fun, and you still actually learn something (like not everything "has" to have a stock to be effective).
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Old 02-11-2019, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty Bones View Post
If them firearms are going to be used for real then regular hand held light techniques for self loading rifle or pistol wonít work. So youíll have to mount a light. You will not be able to use a light and use a pump action firearm at the same time. Mines mounted left side so at close range the impact is slightly to the right of the hotspot. Not even enough to worry about.
The Surefire forend light does allow for use while racking the gun. You may lose light for a millisecond, but with training the light will be back on as you are recovering onto target.

Streamlight has their own version coming out for 870's and Mossbergs, and it looks like street price will be much cheaper than the Surefires.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty Bones View Post
With the shooting technique AK is describing and when used with a light, you wonít miss unless all you ever do is watch idiots wag their jaw about how inexperienced they are so they donít like it. Wtf ever happened to learning how to shoot over just watching idiots in videos online. Thatís someoneís end all evidence? Lol, ok.

Oh but what if itís day light? Canít use the hot spot now. Well the shooting technique AK is describing works out to 20 yards for me. Well beyond your being able to defend use of lethal force distances.
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Old 02-11-2019, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jlrhiner View Post
Now here's my opinion. Everything you described can also be done with an 18" barreled short stocked shotgun. Being employed in exactly the same methods as you described above. Same style of use, same level of comfort in firing, slightly better ballistics. The only real difference is the ability to shoulder one, and the conceal-ability of the other.
Having worked with 18" and 14" shotguns, clearing countless rooms and buildings, I find the 14" much preferable. That was the opinion of all my counterparts at the time, using them for SWAT, stakeouts, etc., which is why we went to 14" guns department wide, (along with being easier to get out of the smaller cars we were then getting).

The Shockwave gun allows those who can't, or don't want to go SBS, to have that short handy tube.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jlrhiner View Post
At 10' or less, I agree with you completely. Very effective tool doing exactly what it was designed for. Lethal and reasonably accurate when fired as you've described. Even out (IMHO) to 30'. Using one past 30' in a defensive situation without being able to shoulder it would be very dicey.

Now sure, you can take steps to decrease pattern size past reasonable self defense range (eg, taping the wads, wax matrix etc.) but doing all that decreases pattern size at close range. Now you're carrying 2 types of ammo.
Well irrespective of the training or skill needed to use the gun past 30', good buckshot loads will still pattern very tightly out of the 14" barrel, at ranges well beyond that 30' mark. At across the bedroom ranges, any buckshot loads are going to be basically one large hole.


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Old 02-11-2019, 03:02 PM
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Having worked with 18" and 14" shotguns, clearing countless rooms and buildings, I find the 14" much preferable. That was the opinion of all my counterparts at the time, using them for SWAT, stakeouts, etc., which is why we went to 14" guns department wide, (along with being easier to get out of the smaller cars we were then getting).

The Shockwave gun allows those who can't, or don't want to go SBS, to have that short handy tube.



Well irrespective of the training or skill needed to use the gun past 30', good buckshot loads will still pattern very tightly out of the 14" barrel, at ranges well beyond that 30' mark. At across the bedroom ranges, any buckshot loads are going to be basically one large hole.


.
Since you were presumably .gov, I assume the NFA didn't apply and those 14" were STOCKED shotguns? Makes a world of difference.

Back onto the OP about tube length, you don't have to load the tube to the max. And an empty aluminum tube weighs almost nothing.

I prefer the ability to have the added capacity, and the extra weight of 3 shells isn't much and I doubt would be noticed during a self defense situation given the adrenaline dump.
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Old 02-11-2019, 10:21 PM
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My .gov experience with a 12 gauge Remington 870 SBS with top folding stock was PAINFUL.

It was much improved by having the folding part removed, leaving a vertical pistol grip.

I love the Shockwave 12 and have a great time cutting down weeds and knocking trash around the range almost every time I get out. Getting pretty handy with it, too.

If the concept doesn't appeal, don't fool with it.
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Old 02-12-2019, 10:42 AM
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put a laser on it, and you can shoot it from any position. Without a laser, I agree... what's wrong with how they are shooting it... line of sight.
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Old 02-12-2019, 09:33 PM
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Since you were presumably .gov, I assume the NFA didn't apply and those 14" were STOCKED shotguns? Makes a world of difference.
Mostly, though as I have said, we did cut some stocks down to a little more than pistol grips, using them for entry guns, stakeouts, and a few other uses where compactness helped.

The Shockwave type grip isn't a replacement for a full stock imho, but within the parameters of a "house gun", they can serve just fine with practice.
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Old 02-12-2019, 09:40 PM
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My .gov experience with a 12 gauge Remington 870 SBS with top folding stock was PAINFUL.

It was much improved by having the folding part removed, leaving a vertical pistol grip.
Same here when we had them. Watched a guy almost lose his nose during training on that sharp metal stock. We ditched them soon after. The cut down stocks we did worked better for us then the Rem stock with the folder removed, the Shockwave would have also had they been around.
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Old 02-13-2019, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by America's Patriot View Post
put a laser on it
I dont know. Ive always found the lasers to be more detrimental than a help, at least on handguns. You waste time and often hesitate, looking for that stupid dot, when you should be shooting.

Maybe if youre using infrared with NV in the dark, but looking for that silly dot, especially any place the ambient light is fairly bright, forget it.
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Old 02-13-2019, 02:37 PM
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I dont know. Ive always found the lasers to be more detrimental than a help, at least on handguns. You waste time and often hesitate, looking for that stupid dot, when you should be shooting.

Maybe if youre using infrared with NV in the dark, but looking for that silly dot, especially any place the ambient light is fairly bright, forget it.
Couldn't agree more. I've bought several guns with lasers and just taken them off.

I know some folks seem to like them, but they just slow me down.
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Old 02-13-2019, 04:56 PM
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I've got a 590. It's got the factory 6+1 tube plus a speed feed stock. I also threw on a side saddle. Works well for me and all of the weight is on the back end.
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Old 02-13-2019, 06:47 PM
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Bought a lightly used 7+1 capacity 590 today for only $220. Came with a $90 GG&G sidesaddle... Couldn't be more pleased.
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