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Old 03-24-2020, 11:36 AM
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Cat, I'm a little uncertain what you are saying here in referencing another thread. The thread I recall about some scripture supposedly added later had to do with Peter being the rock. Was there another thread about casting the 1st stone that I'm missing?

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Yes. In two older threads when I was engaged with Esheldon, he twice expressed to me that the Messianic Jews believe that parts of the Gospel are to be considered fake. He revealed a few not all that they consider fake. Among the parts it was clearly the ENTIRE episode with the women and the stoning.

That is when I asked him to tell me what other parts are considered wrong and what Bible is He reading but he ignored and refused to show more. That is when I got to the conclusion that the Messianic Jews are using a cropped Bible as in very cropped and changed New Testament. They might quote here from our Bible but they are using a different one, the same way Muslims are using different words attributed to Abraham and other Old Testament figures in their books and tradition.
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:36 AM
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Itís things like this which remind me again how thankful I am for Jesus.

He brought Love and Compassion as the most important benchmarks for us. Iíll completely agree that servile work on the Lordís Day should not happen. Auto parts store, etc. (I do miss the Blue Laws!) But no one will convince me that Jesus would expect an EMT to not provide his/her knowledge and abilities to save a life because of the day.

Comparing the OT and itís often draconian rules with the Salvation and Love brought by Jesus to a broken world is simply not possible.
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:41 AM
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Please note that the passage I quoted calls for the "stoning" of a man who broke the Commandment to keep the Sabbath. At that time, the Israelites were willing to cast stones at the man until he died. However, Christ (while speaking to the Pharisees) used the term "he who is without sin cast the first stone." Christ showed mercy towards a woman found in an adulterous relationship. He acknowledged "the law" and the penalty for adultery but He used the sins of others (and their conscience) against them thus freeing the woman from her due punishment. He simply told her to "sin no more."

So is there anyone who believes we're still under the strict auspices of the law who is willing to "cast the first stone" at another sinner?
Yes. There are those that do not believe Jesus has the authority to override the Torah on this. The only reason they believe that is because they do not believe Jesus is DIVINE and in fact do not believe Jesus Himself that said that "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me." Matthew 28:18
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:41 AM
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I don't think I would go so far as to question God's "reason."
Questioning God's reason is not the end but the beginning. Consider how these 2 commands do not align:
  1. Whoever commits adultery shall be stoned to death.
  2. No one can throw stones (Only those without sin can cast the 1st stone.)
BC, there was no requirement on the one carrying out the law. AD, the law cannot be carried out due to a newly imposed requirement no one can meet. Questioning the reason behind unachievable standards is reasonable.
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:44 AM
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Questioning God's reason is not the end but the beginning. Consider how these 2 commands do not align:
  1. Whoever commits adultery shall be stoned to death.
  2. No one can throw stones (Only those without sin can cast the 1st stone.)
BC, there was no requirement on the one carrying out the law. AD, the law cannot be carried out due to a newly imposed requirement no one can meet. Questioning the reason behind unachievable standards is reasonable.
Instead of "questioning" I will use the word "inquiring".
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:48 AM
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Comparing the OT and itís often draconian rules with the Salvation and Love brought by Jesus to a broken world is simply not possible.
Which begs the questions:
  1. If comparing OT to NT is not possible, why is the OT in the Bible?
  2. How can the God of the OT be the God of the NT given how they are incomparable?
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:50 AM
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Which begs the questions:
  1. If comparing OT to NT is not possible, why is the OT in the Bible?
  2. How can the God of the OT be the God of the NT given how they are incomparable?
The OT is there to show just how much God loves us and to show us His ways that are employed into our Salvation. Yes. God changed/refined some of His ways to accommodate our spiritual growth. It is called Love. The OT shows us that when put together with the NT. There are no contradictions, just growth (which means change).
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:51 AM
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My OP is a legitimate question. I'm not looking for a food fight or a name-calling session. I think we can make our points without ripping each other to shreds.

I realize that I've been guilty of hateful behavior in the past but I've really tried to be civil over the past year or so. I WILL call a Democrat a "demonrat" but I try not to get too personal with any individual.
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:52 AM
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Instead of "questioning" I will use the word "inquiring".
I'm OK with that.

I was reading Psalm 65:2 the other day. My CEV translation uses the phrase "answering" ones prayers. Most other translations used the phrase "hear" ones prayer.
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:53 AM
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I'm OK with that.

I was reading Psalm 65:2 the other day. My CEV translation uses the phrase "answering" ones prayers. Most other translations used the phrase "hear" ones prayer.
Both terms are correct, but I will say that "answering" is closer to truth. Because even silence is an answer when we are talking about an All-Powerful (and All Quick) God.
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:58 AM
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I'm "thanking" everyone in this thread for their participation. I am trying to remain neutral (for the time being) towards anyone's particular conclusions or beliefs.
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Old 03-24-2020, 12:05 PM
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The OT is there to show ...
Very good answer Cat! My point in posing the questions was not rhetorical. Questions demand answers and you gave a good one.

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My OP is a legitimate question ...
Agreed. What made you make this statement? Did I or someone else post something suggesting it was not a legitimate question?

BTW, you did not answer a question I asked in my 1st post; do you think we should replace our republic, which prohibits imposing religion on anyone, with a theocracy like there was under Moses?

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I'm "thanking" everyone in this thread for their participation. I am trying to remain neutral (for the time being) towards anyone's particular conclusions or beliefs.
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Old 03-24-2020, 12:13 PM
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So is there anyone who believes we're still under the strict auspices of the law who is willing to "cast the first stone" at another sinner?
I consider this an invalid question. IF any society is going to have a system of justice, it cannot have a requirement that the executors of justice cannot, by definition, meet.

Granted, not everyone has civil authority to be executors of justice. However, I'm not sure if it was ever any other way in a human society beyond one's own immediate family or clan.

Said differently, how do you propose a society have a system of justice GIVEN our sinful nature?
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Old 03-24-2020, 12:38 PM
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Which begs the questions:
  1. If comparing OT to NT is not possible, why is the OT in the Bible?
  2. How can the God of the OT be the God of the NT given how they are incomparable?

The penalty for sin has been, is, and always will be death. That's a fact. The difference between the OT and the NT is the fact that Christ took on our sin and paid our penalty for us. His shed blood is all the payment we need to cover our debt to God.
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Old 03-24-2020, 12:41 PM
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I consider this an invalid question. IF any society is going to have a system of justice, it cannot have a requirement that the executors of justice cannot, by definition, meet.

Granted, not everyone has civil authority to be executors of justice. However, I'm not sure if it was ever any other way in a human society beyond one's own immediate family or clan.

Said differently, how do you propose a society have a system of justice GIVEN our sinful nature?
None of man's systems will ever be perfect or perfectly just. The American system of civil authority is about as good as it will ever get and we all see how corrupt it has become.

The only perfect "society" I can think of was the Garden of Eden before the fall and the Kingdom of God after Christ's return. No other system in the history of mankind has worked all that well. God's system is perfect but when mankind attempts to run the show ... things go south.
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Old 03-24-2020, 01:43 PM
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Very good answer Cat! My point in posing the questions was not rhetorical. Questions demand answers and you gave a good one.



Agreed. What made you make this statement? Did I or someone else post something suggesting it was not a legitimate question?

BTW, you did not answer a question I asked in my 1st post; do you think we should replace our republic, which prohibits imposing religion on anyone, with a theocracy like there was under Moses?





Ultimately we'll be ruled by a Theocracy. Christ will be its King of kings and He will be the Lawgiver.

I'm not suggesting that we follow the OT law here in the USA although it might be better than what we have now in some ways. However, I would prefer to live under NT law with "love thy neighbor" as being the chief, overlying law. Nevertheless, I do believe that men need a set of agreed upon rules to live by.

By the way ... our Republic was founded by Christians. The first Continental Congress called for the printing of a Bible; national prayer; and bringing the Gospel message to the native Indians. The myth of "separation of church and state" has been misinterpreted and misapplied. Initially, Jefferson's ideal was to protect the various Christian denominations from the government or the dominant Christian sect.
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Old 03-24-2020, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
Which begs the questions:
  1. If comparing OT to NT is not possible, why is the OT in the Bible?
  2. How can the God of the OT be the God of the NT given how they are incomparable?
The Bible is a compilation of books, songs, poems, allegorical history and factual history. The overriding theme being Godís creation of and interaction with Man. Maybe an imperfect comparison would be a compiled History of Medicine.
As weíve progressed, we learn new things that supplant the old, as well as reinforcing any effective knowledge which has been around a long time, also.
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Old 03-24-2020, 02:28 PM
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None of man's systems will ever be perfect or perfectly just.
I'm afraid that does not actually answer my question.

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Said differently, how do you propose a society have a system of justice GIVEN our sinful nature?
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Old 03-24-2020, 02:48 PM
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I'm afraid that does not actually answer my question.

I believe I did answer your question when I said that our current American system would be about as good as we can get. I can think of no other secular or religious government on earth today that's as balanced and just (generally speaking).
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Old 03-24-2020, 03:02 PM
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Ultimately we'll be ruled by a Theocracy.
The question then becomes if you would want to already to be found in lock step with what is coming...

Isa 2:2* And it shall be in the latter days that the mountain of the House of יהוה is established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills. And all nations shall flow to it.*

Isa 2:3* And many peoples shall come and say, ďCome, and let us go up to the mountain of יהוה, to the House of the Elohim of Ya‛aqoḇ, and let Him teach us His ways, and let us walk in His paths, for out of Tsiyon comes forth the Torah, and the Word of יהוה from Yerushalayim.Ē*

Isa 2:4* And He shall judge between the nations, and shall reprove many peoples. And they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither teach battle any more.*

1Co 11:31* For if we were to examine ourselves, we would not be judged.*
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