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Old 06-13-2019, 04:01 AM
svremeto svremeto is offline
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Default Home defence with an airgun? Countries with no fire arms



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I live in Bulgaria. A country in easter Europe with a lot of corruption, a country of criminaks. I was brought here by sorrow. I live in a relatively dangerous place where is almost illegal to defend your self or your home. Its extremely hard for most people to get a fire arm for self defence so i've started to think about home defence with an airgun. I found there is a relativly cheap semi automatic airgun called Hatsan Sortie. It has approximately 20-22 jaules of energy and muzzle velosity of 700 fps. I.'ve found also that if i get .22 slugs which are twice heavier than the regilular pellets the stoping power will increase and i suppose they will be enough accurate for 15-20 yards. If i put a red dot and with its big magazin (12 shots) i suppose its enough to defend my home (me or my wife) from 2-3 attackers.

What dou you think about it?
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Old 06-13-2019, 08:59 AM
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I would think heavy clothing/jacket is going to defeat or severely diminish the effects of an airgun. Otherwise your not going to inflict a lethal shot unless you get a golden bb precision shot.

You would be better served using a long pointed stick or learn some basic Filipino knife fighting skills, youtube it.

Better yet a large protective dog.
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Old 06-13-2019, 10:16 AM
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A .22 from a rifle is 168 jules of energy. And most people would consider that to be way under powered.

With that said if I was attacking you and got shot 2 or 3 times in the face with that it would be enough to make me look for cover, or enough to make me really mad and want to kill you.

I am thinking something like pepper spray would be more useful and more likely to stop a person than a small air gun.
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Old 06-13-2019, 12:00 PM
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Look into garden tools. Easy to get and easy to explain why you have them. I know a lot of the countries around you have laws against airsoft guns and airguns. Even pepper spray is ban in a few of them. I have a friend in Romania and she is forced right now to rely on kitchen knives in the house for defense.
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Old 06-13-2019, 12:06 PM
svremeto svremeto is offline
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Thanks! I wached a video whre this man use.177 and from 20-30 inches penetrate a pig skull with lighter pellet and less energy.
https://youtu.be/oHKuO6_4Tuw
What do you think about that?
But i am still not sure if its enough as there is possibility to be used by my wife or other family member who will not know how to fight with a knive, bat or etc. Shooting easier than everything else at all.
So i am asking if someone has such or similar experiance.
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Old 06-13-2019, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Woods Survival View Post
Look into garden tools. Easy to get and easy to explain why you have them. I know a lot of the countries around you have laws against airsoft guns and airguns. Even pepper spray is ban in a few of them. I have a friend in Romania and she is forced right now to rely on kitchen knives in the house for defense.
That's how many Japanese weapons were developed during a period in its history when weapons were outlawed. Nunchakus were originally a farm tool used to thresh rice or soybeans. Most other classic martial arts weapons started out as farming tools.

Learn to use what you have. A cane can be a formidable weapon if you know how to use it.
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Old 06-13-2019, 12:34 PM
gungatim gungatim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Jfamily View Post
I would think heavy clothing/jacket is going to defeat or severely diminish the effects of an airgun. Otherwise your not going to inflict a lethal shot unless you get a golden bb precision shot.

You would be better served using a long pointed stick or learn some basic Filipino knife fighting skills, youtube it.

Better yet a large protective dog.
the OP isn't talking about a little bb gun, look up the model he posted, semi-auto, decent power, bulpup design.

there are lots of air powered hunting rifles and handguns springing up (no pun intended) in lieu of Europe's gun bans.

if I were in the OP's shoes, I would be thinking the exact same, possibly even modifying one with a small HPA tank from a paintball gun for extended capacity/power.
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Old 06-13-2019, 01:56 PM
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Here is my type of air gun.

Full Auto BB Guns Are Legal!



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Originally Posted by gungatim View Post
the OP isn't talking about a little bb gun, look up the model he posted, semi-auto, decent power, bulpup design.
Hatsan Sortie Semi-Auto PCP Air Pistol, Synthetic
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Old 06-13-2019, 03:09 PM
svremeto svremeto is offline
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Okay, full auto bbs guns but are these 350fps enough? I thinks its very low power.
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Old 06-13-2019, 03:12 PM
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And about the different types of weapons like knives and sticks and bats... This is not serious. Yes its great to practice such things but against 2-3 attackers you should have advantage because otherwise this can cost your life.
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Old 06-13-2019, 03:22 PM
Outpost75 Outpost75 is offline
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Don't know about airgun laws in Bulgaria, but in the UK air guns are restricted to 12 ft.-lbs., such being the pinnacle of home protection...just kidding. Although I'm sure that most wimps nowadays would be terrorised by any rifle pointing at them.

The Stasi do try and nick people who have the audacity to actually tweak their airguns by using their own pellets to get it to register in excess of 12 ft.-lbs. The common 8 grain pellet gets just under 12 foot-pounds at only 820 fps, and the heavy 13 grain pellets, nearly as heavy as the standard .22 hobby pellet, gets its 12 foot-pounds at only 634 FPS. Also consider that the 8 grain and heavier pellets have better game performance and the weight X speed calculation becomes a bit less limiting.

When using air guns there is a simple "magic number" for velocity, which is 671 FPS.
At 671 fps the weight of the projectile in grains equals the ft.-lbs. energy it produces.

12 grain pellet at 671 gives 12 ft/lb energy
10 grain pellet at 671 gives 10 ft/lb energy and so on....

That might not sound too important to the .177 shooter using an 8 grain pellet at 800 fps, but it is pretty important to the shooter of a .22 that is smack onto that number or wanting to approach it closely without going over.

I have watched many films of British air gunners shooting rats and I see that most of them hold with their +- 8 grain pellets after testing the lightweight pellets on their quarry and finding them not adequate to anchor a good sized rat.

The limits of math are also what pushes the balance of favor to the .177 in GB. With the lighter 8 grain .177 pellets reaching their top limit at 850 their trajectory is flatter than the average .22 pellet at 600-625 fps. That naturally makes range estimation and sight in distance less critical with the .177.

A factor I find to be a constant, is the inability of most people to estimate range even at very short distances. Even experienced shooters over-estimate range, thinking that 20 yards is 25 and that 30-35 yards is 50. If one sights in their air gun properly and restricts shots to a proper air gun range then hold over is not even a consideration, and hold under is equally useless until the target is within arms reach. The combination of guessing range at longer than reality, then holding over to compensate for drop that does not happen equals to a lot of shots going over the heads of game and training them to hide from the shooter at ever longer ranges.

While the best guns in the US and Canada are adjustable, whereas UK legal ones cannot be adjusted without taking them apart and either machining or replacing a part, with a part you can't legally buy there. Check your local laws...

In the US and Canada there are many air rifles that come in both regulated and unregulated forms, the difference being only the addition of the regulator. This is done in order to smooth out the performance of the rifle from shot to shot and gives us a decision to make, since the regulated rifles are always weaker than the unregulated rifles. On average a .22 unregulated rifle might shoot a 15 grain pellet at 900fps while its regulated counterpart might only shoot to 700.

The faster shots are on the outer fringes of the normal bell curve of performance. One must study their own rifle to discover where those "top shots" come in. They usually fall between shots 9 and 21 after a full pump up. To adjust, only pump the rifle to 17 bar, fire no more than 10 or 11 shots and then refill back to pressure. That gives top power and top accuracy without waste. You could go for more shots, but performance and accuracy fall off rapidly for the next 20 shots!

Spring-air guns are easier to tune up. Over here we have companies that do nothing but make springs. They do not make "air gun springs", they just make springs. You look in their catalogs and find a spring of the same diameter, wire gauge and length as your air gun spring, then you order one two inches longer than what you have. You can increase the power of spring-air guns by 75 fps with the simple addition of a spring one coil larger than the original!

Article on the lethality of air guns in the British Medical Journal:

https://adc.bmj.com/content/86/4/234
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Old 06-13-2019, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
Don't know about airgun laws in Bulgaria, but in the UK air guns are restricted to 12 ft.-lbs., such being the pinnacle of home protection...just kidding. Although I'm sure that most wimps nowadays would be terrorised by any rifle pointing at them.

The Stasi do try and nick people who have the audacity to actually tweak their airguns by using their own pellets to get it to register in excess of 12 ft.-lbs. The common 8 grain pellet gets just under 12 foot-pounds at only 820 fps, and the heavy 13 grain pellets, nearly as heavy as the standard .22 hobby pellet, gets its 12 foot-pounds at only 634 FPS. Also consider that the 8 grain and heavier pellets have better game performance and the weight X speed calculation becomes a bit less limiting.

When using air guns there is a simple "magic number" for velocity, which is 671 FPS.
At 671 fps the weight of the projectile in grains equals the ft.-lbs. energy it produces.

12 grain pellet at 671 gives 12 ft/lb energy
10 grain pellet at 671 gives 10 ft/lb energy and so on....

That might not sound too important to the .177 shooter using an 8 grain pellet at 800 fps, but it is pretty important to the shooter of a .22 that is smack onto that number or wanting to approach it closely without going over.

I have watched many films of British air gunners shooting rats and I see that most of them hold with their +- 8 grain pellets after testing the lightweight pellets on their quarry and finding them not adequate to anchor a good sized rat.

The limits of math are also what pushes the balance of favor to the .177 in GB. With the lighter 8 grain .177 pellets reaching their top limit at 850 their trajectory is flatter than the average .22 pellet at 600-625 fps. That naturally makes range estimation and sight in distance less critical with the .177.

A factor I find to be a constant, is the inability of most people to estimate range even at very short distances. Even experienced shooters over-estimate range, thinking that 20 yards is 25 and that 30-35 yards is 50. If one sights in their air gun properly and restricts shots to a proper air gun range then hold over is not even a consideration, and hold under is equally useless until the target is within arms reach. The combination of guessing range at longer than reality, then holding over to compensate for drop that does not happen equals to a lot of shots going over the heads of game and training them to hide from the shooter at ever longer ranges.

While the best guns in the US and Canada are adjustable, whereas UK legal ones cannot be adjusted without taking them apart and either machining or replacing a part, with a part you can't legally buy there. Check your local laws...

In the US and Canada there are many air rifles that come in both regulated and unregulated forms, the difference being only the addition of the regulator. This is done in order to smooth out the performance of the rifle from shot to shot and gives us a decision to make, since the regulated rifles are always weaker than the unregulated rifles. On average a .22 unregulated rifle might shoot a 15 grain pellet at 900fps while its regulated counterpart might only shoot to 700.

The faster shots are on the outer fringes of the normal bell curve of performance. One must study their own rifle to discover where those "top shots" come in. They usually fall between shots 9 and 21 after a full pump up. To adjust, only pump the rifle to 17 bar, fire no more than 10 or 11 shots and then refill back to pressure. That gives top power and top accuracy without waste. You could go for more shots, but performance and accuracy fall off rapidly for the next 20 shots!

Spring-air guns are easier to tune up. Over here we have companies that do nothing but make springs. They do not make "air gun springs", they just make springs. You look in their catalogs and find a spring of the same diameter, wire gauge and length as your air gun spring, then you order one two inches longer than what you have. You can increase the power of spring-air guns by 75 fps with the simple addition of a spring one coil larger than the original!

Article on the lethality of air guns in the British Medical Journal:

https://adc.bmj.com/content/86/4/234

Even with all that tweaking you are still talking about a projectile that has 1/10 the power of a .22. And I have never heard someone say .22 has plenty of power. At best they will say .22 is better than nothing, is cheap, very compact and easy to carry and with proper shot placement MAY do the job. I realize in the op's case he can't carry a gun but I doubt a good pellet gun will stop a determined attacker.
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Old 06-13-2019, 05:20 PM
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Riot shield?

Just block a hallway.

Or a chair will do the job.
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Old 06-13-2019, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lasers View Post
Even with all that tweaking you are still talking about a projectile that has 1/10 the power of a .22. And I have never heard someone say .22 has plenty of power. At best they will say .22 is better than nothing, is cheap, very compact and easy to carry and with proper shot placement MAY do the job. I realize in the op's case he can't carry a gun but I doubt a good pellet gun will stop a determined attacker.
All true, but if you live someplace which prohibits civilians from owning firearms, then you have to make other choices. A tool belt with a pair of Klein electrician's pliers, bolt cutters, 12" Channel Locks, Phillips and straight-blade screwdrivers, a framing hammer, box cutter and a short nail-puller bar isn't a bad choice.

Trust me, you grab somebody's ear with those Klein's and he will follow you anywhere!
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Old 06-13-2019, 06:42 PM
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Are bows and arrows legal in Bulgaria?


Definitely more threat stopping than a pellet rifle.



How about baseball bats and a bad attitude?
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Old 06-13-2019, 06:42 PM
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I would build an arrow launcher (6" long bolts) powered by flat bands. A 4 shot unit, say 2' long would work in confined places like a house. You could have several placed in easy to get too locations.

I would look at things like wasp spray.
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Old 06-13-2019, 11:06 PM
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Tension weapons can be very effective and are often underrated. They are also quite simple to construct. They can be tested silently, and improved incrementally. Commenting on behalf of a friend.

Also, in places and situations where one cannot be effectively armed with arms... a very high powered torch to temporarily blind the advancing miscreant - and a bottle of olive oil to put him on the ground without laying any hand upon his unsavory person - can result in a result devoutly to be wished. The best fight is the one I can avoid.
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Old 06-14-2019, 02:09 AM
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How about a "slingbow"? I had forgotten all about them and it looks like the technology has matured.
Video about the slingbow:

Article about the slingbow : https://www.roanoke.com/sports/bill-...cc2096bf6.html
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Old 06-14-2019, 02:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrypticCRICKET View Post
How about baseball bats and a bad attitude?
I know you're trying to help the poor guy but I've said this before and people don't believe me probably because my stories sound too crazy, but baseball bats are useless and clubs in general are useless against any but the weakest, most undetermined attacker.

Back in the 80s I was attacked by an angry man with a baseball bat and I took that bat and beat him with it. In the end he was laying on the ground cowering and I had full control.. I'm sure he hit me with it before I took it from him but with the adrenaline going I never even noticed.

I ended up being the one getting arrested when the cops showed up, but that's not the point.

I've also been hit in the back of the head with a steel lug wrench hard enough that I later had to get stitches to stop the bleeding. Same thing - I took it from him and overpowered him easily and with the adrenaline I never even felt the hit. I didn't get arrested for that one though.

The point is that I'm speaking from first hand experience and I know that club weapons are worthless and you're not going to stop a desperate or crazy person with one. The only thing they do is give one a false sense of security. But when the SHTF that club isn't going to do **** for you because real life isn't like the movies.

Honestly, for a primitive melee weapon I think I'd rather have a 6 foot / 2 meter spear with a thick shaft. At least it has a pointy end that you can try to keep the bad guy away from you. A sword is too unwieldy although it sounds cooler, maybe if you were really good with it. (Yeah I do have a sword but I'd rather have a spear) But unlike clubs I don't have any first hand data points with actually fighting for real with swords or spears so I don't really know.
.

Last edited by sarco2000; 06-14-2019 at 03:29 AM..
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Old 06-14-2019, 03:07 AM
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I have a Hatsan .22 break barrel and it really hits critters hard.
All about shot placement and they are accurate.
but if you shoot center of mass and they are wearing a coat? I don't know.
I do know I had to buy an indoor handgun bullet trap designed for .22LR to handle the power.
it went clean through the normal pellet traps I bought. (and the 2 inch thick phone book I had behind that).

A cold steel pig spear might be another weapon to consider for close range.
I have one and it would stop a charging 800 lb boar.

but if the other guy has a gun, you are out of luck.

https://www.amazon.com/Cold-Steel-As...ct_top?ie=UTF8
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