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Old 03-28-2020, 11:09 PM
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Default Marines will undergo radical restructuring



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Seems that the Navy and Pentagon have determined a new(old) kind of war for the future of the USMC.

https://news.usni.org/2020/03/23/new...ittoral-forces

https://www.overtdefense.com/2020/03...0-china-pivot/

It will focus on a littoral war campaign in the South China Sea.

Going away are all the heavy armor units. I'm not sure that means they are completely dumping MBT's, but I doubt you will see anything larger that a 4 tank platoon in an armor battalion. It's going to be LAVs and Amtracs for most of the armor.

Gone also are main force howitzer battery units. No info on what will be kept, but most likely just a few guns assigned to main battalions.

Helicopter, Osprey, and attack fighter units are going to be cut hard too.


Seems like the goal now is to attack Tarawa again all these decades later.

The Corps will be getting smaller as well. A lot of the skill sets dropped or reduced won't see much increase in new areas. Air Wings will be gutted. I'm not sure they will even qualify as division sized units like in the past. Can't even be sure they won't just get folded into the ground divisions. About the only type of force due for an increase are missile armed units.




I won't deny that fighting a littoral war with China will need some force adjustments, but it seems a lot like monotasking. Marines have fought out of their prime element many times since the end of WW2. Korea, Vietnam, Cold War brushfires, GW1, GW2, and GWOT have had the Marines fighting many times far away from the classic shore battles. We never lost our shore skills either for all that distraction, and also proved competent at all these other jobs. I'm not sure that monotasking is smart. Marines prove themselves rather useful even outside their core mission. Ditching so much air capability also doesn't seem so smart.

If this goes through as planned I hope the Army stops their slow ditching of main armor. I seriously would hate to see American troops stuck into a Europe or Asia land war with only a division or two worth of MBT armor.

I'm always against any reduction in artillery power anywhere. Artillery is how war has been won ever since they cast the first bronze ones.

Consider this old Jarhead concerned.
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Old 03-28-2020, 11:21 PM
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Reading a couple similar articles as well on The WarZone. If I'm reading right, the Commandant is looking to do away with ALL tanks.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...rones-missiles

WSJ has a similar article.
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Old 03-29-2020, 03:16 AM
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Sounds like an Enemy of the US is restructuring the military.

Crazy.
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Old 03-29-2020, 05:40 AM
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Sounds like an Enemy of the US is restructuring the military.

Crazy.
Restructuring is likely the most favorite mental masturbation of vets and military critics.

I could spend a few minutes and type up a detailed plan of mine for every service. Mine is no stranger to crazy ideas either. Submarine drone carriers, giving the Army their own attack planes, adding entire military services, and other things that would send scores of brass into Walter Reed with stroke symptoms.

But the military is hidebound and slow to change for good reasons. War skill sets can't change in the blink of an eye. Legacy systems are proven systems that pack a wallop. Materiel is screaming expensive to swap out before its lifecycle ends. Many basic fundamentals of combat really don't change. Laws of war don't change much either.

So change has to be better than merely interesting or novel, unless you are in an existing war and are getting bogged down.

I can see the need to increase littoral capabilities with the South China Sea on the horizon, but will that actually be the next big war? We may end up fighting China, but what happens if it unfolds over the Himalayas or in Africa? There's no guarantee it could even be China. Iran stays constantly in our face. Ukraine remains a powder keg. South and Central America seem to enjoy living on the tipping point. We are going to look pretty stupid trying to send a bunch of newly trained littoral trained Marines up the Andes and into the Amazon Source to root out some grand commie coalition.

Ditching air and artillery doesn't sound good for any war, including in littoral situations. The Navy may be able to make up the air losses, but there is only one main gun on most surface combat ships now that is a hell of a lot smaller than in the past. Accuracy may be vastly improved but firepower volume isn't even a whisper of what we had up until the 80's. Artillery is what actually wins wars. Expecting crazy expensive missiles to fill the gap is idiocy. You can fire massed artillery for days economically, but missile launchers run dry fast, cost an eye watering amount to refill, and require far more than average leg grunt level of expertise. You don't need a bunch of college degrees to have a battery of 155's level a zip code. A couple seasoned vets and a squad of strong teenagers can level entire city blocks in minutes with a well maintained gun. Artillery isn't called the Queen of Battle for no reason. That's not some recent title either. Napoleon knew this. Centuries later those boys atop the Rockpile with their 175s near the DMZ proved they were the best friends the troops at Khe Sanh had for 7 months straight 24 hours a day.


Tweak the boys to be more littoral oriented? Sure, sounds like a great idea after 2 decades in the Sandbox.

But this seems like throwing out the baby with the bathwater just because the new Commandant wants to play MacArthur Redux.
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Old 03-29-2020, 05:49 AM
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Somebody needs to throw a net over the idiot that wants to get rid of artillery and helicopters and put him in a rubber room somewhere.

Was this one of the Obama Generals perhaps?

Are these the same planners that came up the the Zummwalt? Our new warship designed specifically for Littoral combat



"the navy reverted to building Arleigh Burke destroyers. A National Review article by Mike Fredenburg calls the Zumwalts "an unmitigated disaster"

"USS Unmitigated Disaster"

A destroyer that cost 22 billion dollars and breaks down and needs towed to a shop. And was going to have one whole gun but I guess it was too expensive and now it has none. And there was supposed to be a whole bunch of them, and now there are 3.
Wait, I was being too critical, it has a gun, just no ammunition.
"2 155 mm (6 in)/62 caliber Advanced Gun System; 920 round magazine. Unusable, no ammunition"

Wait... Here it is, firing imaginary ammo. Just broadcast that image at the Chinese, they will surrender, then illuminate the sky with the holographic, :"Mission Accomplished" banner projector.

...and will somebody get that helo off the deck? Push that sucker overboard. Didn't they get the memo? No more helicopters for littoral combat units!



I guess you sail it up to the Chinese Island, bristling with missiles and artillery and fighter jets, and while the Chinese are incapacitated laughing at you, the Marines land somehow without their helicopters or Ospreys, and armed with what? I dunno, do they still get guns? I guess by sheer warfighting spirit and a will to win, overcome the hordes of dug in armed to the teeth Chinese.
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Old 03-29-2020, 06:38 AM
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Somebody needs to throw a net over the idiot that wants to get rid of artillery and helicopters and put him in a rubber room somewhere.

Was this one of the Obama Generals perhaps?
He likely got his first star when Obama was in. He was a Brigadier in 2013 and that 4 years after Obama was elected.

Trump was the one to appoint him Commandant thought, less than a year ago.

He's been pushing this change since he was appointed last July.
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Old 03-29-2020, 06:41 AM
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I have been unhappy about Wyo Nat Guard units going from 155 guns to missile shooters. That happened a long time ago. So how many missiles do these new units have??? How many in the State??? How long could they fight without constant resupply???

What is more worrisome is combat units being replaced with truck drivers and MPs
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Old 03-29-2020, 07:08 AM
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I have been unhappy about Wyo Nat Guard units going from 155 guns to missile shooters. That happened a long time ago. So how many missiles do these new units have??? How many in the State??? How long could they fight without constant resupply???

What is more worrisome is combat units being replaced with truck drivers and MPs
Well, the Marines have the opposite problem now with the MP's. This new general is ditching them completely. Marines with no MPs? I pity the local cops wherever the Jarheads show up for a night of hard partying. In my day they had to tear gas old Court Street on some Saturday nights just so the bar owners could shut down at 2AM.

Nothing like hearing the hiss of a canister just after you hear Last Call.


Missiles instead of artillery rounds? Put aside the cost for a second and how many more 155 rounds fit on a 5 ton truck compared to those fancy missile replacement canisters. Those logistic drivers are going to be burning the tires off their trucks keeping those launchers filled. Once registered, an artillery round is just as accurate as a missile and can't be electronically spoofed. And then we do get back to the cost, which will be like night and day. A basic HE 155 round costs $400. A MLRS replacement shot is about $100,000. The latter has twice the firepower, so the missile is about a hundred times more expensive to fire than two 155 war shots. I should be investing my retirement money into Raytheon.....

If the Jarheads get stuck in a land war after this change, we may need the Wyo NG with all their drivers and MP's. Can you imagine the looks the NG troops give to the CO when he tells them they are following the Marines up that hill?
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Old 03-29-2020, 07:20 AM
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Well, somebody has to stop that general from defanging our military.
Write letters to Trump or whoever.

Artillery is the most fundamental battle weapon we have. Especially now that the F-35 is supposedly a bomb truck and can hold like 2 bombs in its tiny bomb bay, and will likely require a lot of turnaround time per sortie to perform maintnance.
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Old 03-29-2020, 07:46 AM
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Well, somebody has to stop that general from defanging our military.
Write letters to Trump or whoever.

Artillery is the most fundamental battle weapon we have. Especially now that the F-35 is supposedly a bomb truck and can hold like 2 bombs in its tiny bomb bay, and will likely require a lot of turnaround time per sortie to perform maintnance.
Republican Marines in Congress:
Todd Young - Indiana Senator
Dan Sullivan - Alaska Senator *
Paul Cook - California Rep
Mike Bost - Indiana Rep
Jack Bergman - Michigan Rep * (former MC general)
Mike Gallagher - Wisconsin Rep *

* = on armed service committee.

Not many to contact. None from my state or even region. But 3 on relevant committee and one former 3 star general.
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Old 03-29-2020, 07:58 AM
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This old Jarhead was also concerned when I read about this last week. I was a winger (MACS-1, MAG-38, 3rd MAW).

The good news is that he is not planning to fight our last war. The bad news is, he seems to be singularly focused.

To go from Colonel to General (four promotions) in six years is pretty impressive.
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Old 03-29-2020, 08:10 AM
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All I can figure is this is a continuation of the attempts to destroy the country that Obama and his clandestine backers began.

If you are Soros, I imagine having a national guard and marine units armed with helicopters , tanks and artillery would make you afraid for your life when you try to take over the country and put the screws to the citizens.

That stuff is already bought and paid for. There is no defensible reason to retire that equipment, other than as part of a plan to take over the country.
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Old 03-29-2020, 08:39 AM
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This old Jarhead was also concerned when I read about this last week. I was a winger (MACS-1, MAG-38, 3rd MAW).

The good news is that he is not planning to fight our last war. The bad news is, he seems to be singularly focused.

To go from Colonel to General (four promotions) in six years is pretty impressive.
We ground troops relentlessly teased the wing units, but the fact of having integral air and land made the Corps extremely responsive. Salty Lance Coolies could call in air support in heart beat while in the Army it took at least a rocker making the first request and then it went through a half dozen hands before someone blessed it. Corps response time was almost instantly if a plane was on station, while the Army that didn't have a special air liaison needed half an hour just get the order cut. A big reason a Marine small patrol could get big stuff done while it took a company of Army grunts just to get by a road ambush.

Look at what Recon did in the early stages of the Iraq War. That run to Baghdad made Hannibal turn over in his grave. Just a few days to get from Kuwait the the outskirts of Baghdad while under fire the whole time. No manual ever had that scenario planned. It was opportunity, guts, and flexibility making it up as they went along. Hollywood took its liberties telling it, but Generation Kill was a real thing. Why ruin that ability with monotasking?

The Corps needs more flexibility, not less.

And more tubes on target. Always more tubes.
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Old 03-29-2020, 09:25 AM
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Just remembered something.

Littoral war means heavy reliance on ship to shore armor, especially if not going in by fast helo anymore.

The Amtrac is now 48 years old in design. They have tried several times trying to design a replacement. 3 billion was spent to get the EFV going before it collapsed in a heap of wishful thinking wrapped in pork.

If we go monotask on littoral without good amphibian armor we'll really be almost back to the Tarawa days.


Those were very bad days....

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Old 03-29-2020, 09:40 AM
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Sounds like an Enemy of the US is restructuring the military.

Crazy.
Sounds like they're turning the Marines back into the Marines. What's the point of having different branches of the armed forces if each branch is capable of being self-contained and doing the work of the other branches?

There is an adage that the US Navy is one of the best air forces in the world. This I can understand, as they need to have specialized planes to take off and land on aircraft carriers all over the world. But why do the Marines have fighter planes, armor, etc?

If the purpose of the USMC has been expanded to include so many things beyond wading ashore and securing the beachhead as far inland as possible, then the name of their branch should be changed to reflect that mission creep.

Or, we can turn to capable managers to look at the redundancy in our military capacity, reduce the overlap where it is not edifying mission capability, and either reallocate those resources where they will be more effective, or use them on other tasks essential to securing the rights of the American people.

Or, God forbid, they could be used to reduce the deficit or lower taxes.
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Old 03-29-2020, 09:48 AM
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This old Jarhead was also concerned when I read about this last week. I was a winger (MACS-1, MAG-38, 3rd MAW).

The good news is that he is not planning to fight our last war. The bad news is, he seems to be singularly focused.

To go from Colonel to General (four promotions) in six years is pretty impressive.
Yeah, but once the birds become stars, they're political ranks. Merit takes a back seat to whether or not they kiss the ring. And I dont mean the one on the President's hand.

To jump from colonel to general in six years that straddle two administrations makes it likely that he's a yes man.
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Old 03-29-2020, 09:53 AM
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The Marines have those Marine Assault Wasp ships. To assault a shore they need to airlift troops, artillery and a little armor of some sort ASAP into the landing areas. And they need helicopter gunships blowing the crap out of anything in front of them. Who then would be tasked with going in with the first wave then to set up artillery positions and giving them some armor and gunship support?

The Marines go in first and they need to do serious damage, secure some objectives, set up artillery batteries and maybe stay alive in the process. They have figured out a very effective way to do that.

Some Obama appointee that has a bunch of paper pushing experience is not the one to re-write the marine assault doctrine.
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Old 03-29-2020, 09:59 AM
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I think that this is going to be a huge problem down the road. Nobody in power asked my input but , it doesn't seem hard to foretell ...

In the 90s and 2000s, we had a few things on the boil , specifically- Seawolf-class submarines (which were to be , I mean really ARE NOW, the most advanced, capable, and absolutely devastating undersea combat platforms on the planet.), and we cancelled them for "Cost and Peace Dividend". We had a capable fleet of ASW FFGs in the FFG-7 class and very capable, modernized and upgraded , ASW-focused, Multi-mission upgraded, DD-963s ... so we force the retiring and scrapping/sinking of the FFGs and DDs, and focus on the ridiculous in concept/more ridiculous in execution, Littoral Combat Ship. Also, we start the Cruiser replacement in the CG/CGN-X program. We cancel it for cost. Also we marched towards the capability to put forth, sustain and maintain, a minimum of large-deck Amphibious-assault Ship - based Expeditionary Strike Groups or Amphibious Ready Groups.


Now, we're in the state where- we absolutely have failed with the LCS, to the point where they've abandoned the entire premise for the program (interchangeable mission packages) and are retiring the first 4 ships because they're basically both breaking and rusting away- and what do we desperately need? FFGs.

What else are we extremely in need of? Air-Warfare-Command platform Cruisers.

What is the Navy's perhaps #1 priority other than the Columbia-class SSBNs? New attack submarines that are going to be based on the Seawolf-class.


And now the USMC is going to get away from Amphibious Assault Ships and ARGs... They're going to divest major air and land squadron-powers, and get rid of some of their most iconic weapons platforms- the M1 Abrams, the F-35B, and large-deck Amphibs.


It really, really seems like we're trying to plan to fight a war that China WANTS us to plan for, a la Sun Tzu.


---- BUT WAIT --- Even if you completely disagree with me, this part is indisputable- if the current Commandant makes his decisions, changes whatever he changes, etc- 3 years later he's out, and what happens when 3 or even 6 years down the road, 1 or 2 Commandants later, they decided (or the world has forced the hand) that, all that stuff that was changed, or cancelled, or divested of , THAT"S WHAT WE NEED NOW...

And we pay double or triple or bazzilionres more, to try to recoup some production and time and programs, just trying to "Catch Up".


I really don't like it but, they didn't ask me.
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Old 03-29-2020, 10:05 AM
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It was the same with cancelling the Warthog. The most devastating, low cost, fear provoking, ass kicking machines on the planet, and they decided to cancel the program.

And before that, they decided to retire or scrap every naval vessel capable of shore bombardment to support landings.

The whole screwed up premise of the F-35 was it needed to have VTOL capabilities for the Marines. Therefore they all had a screwed up fuselage shape to start with. Now that they have a few in service they want to take them away from the Marines??

Somebody is flat out trying to destroy our military. That somebody needs to be given a fair trial and then executed. (assuming the navy has any rope left or yard arms to hang them from).
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Old 03-29-2020, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by DeBrewhaha View Post
This old Jarhead was also concerned when I read about this last week. I was a winger (MACS-1, MAG-38, 3rd MAW).

The good news is that he is not planning to fight our last war. The bad news is, he seems to be singularly focused.

To go from Colonel to General (four promotions) in six years is pretty impressive.
Good politician.
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