Slightly Elder Member's than I, Please School Me - Survivalist Forum
Survivalist Forum

Advertise Here

Go Back   Survivalist Forum > >
Articles Classifieds Donations Gallery Groups Links Store Survival Files


Notices

Disaster Preparedness General Discussion Anything Disaster Preparedness or Survival Related

Advertise Here
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-28-2020, 09:55 PM
RurbanGreyDude's Avatar
RurbanGreyDude RurbanGreyDude is offline
Prepared
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Age: 25
Posts: 307
Thanks: 697
Thanked 524 Times in 207 Posts
Default Slightly Elder Member's than I, Please School Me



Advertise Here

Curious, genuine question. I'm 25, and I do faintly remember the morning of 9/11. I remember the towers falling and not knowing just what I was looking at. I remember seeing my mom frozen in fear and school letting out early that day.

I remember the SARS outbreak equally. I remember being 8 and asking my dad why all the weird people were wearing masks in the subway (oh, to be a young na´ve kid again). He basically said we're ok, we're prepared son.

You know what I don't remember? I was a HS freshman when H5N1 swine flu or what have you was found.

I do remember washing my hands more frequently, everyone in school sneezing with elbows. Basic precautions I've followed since I was a young boy. Sure, it was a slight topic of discussion. But i remember no precautions taken past handwashing.

Did the media and PTB flip out like this in 08 or 09? Jog my memory or confirm no one cared about the last pandemic

Been pondering that question for a day or two now...
Quick reply to this message
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to RurbanGreyDude For This Useful Post:
Old 03-28-2020, 09:57 PM
Aerindel's Avatar
Aerindel Aerindel is offline
Abnormality biased.
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Montananistan.
Posts: 7,779
Thanks: 10,137
Thanked 21,047 Times in 6,156 Posts
Default

No, this is by far the biggest event like this in the last 40 years at least.

There was some news about swine flue, bird flu, and sars....but nothing even 1/10th like this.

Which makes since, as the numbers infected for those where very low.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to Aerindel For This Useful Post:
Old 03-28-2020, 10:01 PM
TXplowgirl's Avatar
TXplowgirl TXplowgirl is offline
Wannabe Mountain Hermit
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Southern Oklahoma
Age: 56
Posts: 13,052
Thanks: 31,196
Thanked 34,834 Times in 9,922 Posts
Default

This is fast getting past the point of 911, the day the Japanese hit Pearl Harbor which started WW II and in between all put together.
__________________
Disabled Preppers Group
For those of us who are disabled, whether it be SSDI, SSI, Military, family members who are disabled and would like to discuss with others on how we might be able to get through today's times, SHTF or joining a MAG and what challenges may be faced with that.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to TXplowgirl For This Useful Post:
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 03-28-2020, 10:13 PM
leadcounsel's Avatar
leadcounsel leadcounsel is offline
Comic, not your lawyer!
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 12,186
Thanks: 29,984
Thanked 40,011 Times in 9,307 Posts
Default

9/11/01 - Killed 3000. Wrecked the economy and markets for years, probably 3-5 years. I was in my prime years and it changed my life and obviously the direction of the nation. I joined the service and went to war and you know the wars and such. It rewrote history.
I think in terms of Pre-9/11 and Post-9/11. Life just got different and we lost our innocence and it's never been the same. When I listen to music or watch some old TV shows from the 80s, 90s, even 2000/2001 before the attacks, they were just so innocent and frozen in that moment of time.

All the other stuff, H1N1, Ebola, Sars, the banking collapse, some financial boondoggles... none of it really mattered much to anyone other than someone directly effected. The 2008 banking collapse was a big financial deal and altered the election and history. But really the worst impacted directly were the irresponsible who over-leveraged themselves. If you asked most people, none of these things amounted to much long term unless they were directly impacted. I couldn't even tell you the exact dates of any of these events; they're historically interesting but amount to little.

For at least a month I've been telling people that the Corona 19 will have a 9/11/01 like impact on us as a nation and world. Things will change. Heck, things HAVE changed. Elsewhere I wrote a long list of comparisons you can go find it. But to summarize, more humans have died already as a result, more Americans will die within a few days as a result, probably by the 2nd week of April. Global trade, travel, etc. the economy, our way of life and leisure and fear... This is quite similar. We're locked down, worried about getting sick, worried about love ones dying, worried about the next "attack" worried about the stock market and our finances and jobs... This is a very similar feeling that went on for months and years post-9/11/01. The only thing this lacks is the immediate violence of the 9/11 attacks and the anger at a human enemy. That really scarred people and I struggle to watch those old clips; it's just overwhelming sometimes and almost like it's not real.

For the immediate future, big adjustments. For the the short and medium term, probably big adjustments. Don't know about long-term...
Quick reply to this message
The Following 16 Users Say Thank You to leadcounsel For This Useful Post:
Old 03-28-2020, 10:56 PM
Aerindel's Avatar
Aerindel Aerindel is offline
Abnormality biased.
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Montananistan.
Posts: 7,779
Thanks: 10,137
Thanked 21,047 Times in 6,156 Posts
Default

I think this is already way bigger than 9/11 was.

For all its excitement, for 99% of people it was just something you heard about on TV in a far away state that never actually effected you.

Or maybe I was just never as innocent as most people.

This is everywhere.

Most likely in 24-48 hours it will have a higher death toll....but most importantly, unlike 9/11, this is a threat to everyone.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Aerindel For This Useful Post:
Old 03-28-2020, 11:32 PM
RurbanGreyDude's Avatar
RurbanGreyDude RurbanGreyDude is offline
Prepared
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Age: 25
Posts: 307
Thanks: 697
Thanked 524 Times in 207 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
9/11/01 - Killed 3000. Wrecked the economy and markets for years, probably 3-5 years. I was in my prime years and it changed my life and obviously the direction of the nation. I joined the service and went to war and you know the wars and such. It rewrote history.
I think in terms of Pre-9/11 and Post-9/11. Life just got different and we lost our innocence and it's never been the same. When I listen to music or watch some old TV shows from the 80s, 90s, even 2000/2001 before the attacks, they were just so innocent and frozen in that moment of time.

All the other stuff, H1N1, Ebola, Sars, the banking collapse, some financial boondoggles... none of it really mattered much to anyone other than someone directly effected. The 2008 banking collapse was a big financial deal and altered the election and history. But really the worst impacted directly were the irresponsible who over-leveraged themselves. If you asked most people, none of these things amounted to much long term unless they were directly impacted. I couldn't even tell you the exact dates of any of these events; they're historically interesting but amount to little.

For at least a month I've been telling people that the Corona 19 will have a 9/11/01 like impact on us as a nation and world. Things will change. Heck, things HAVE changed. Elsewhere I wrote a long list of comparisons you can go find it. But to summarize, more humans have died already as a result, more Americans will die within a few days as a result, probably by the 2nd week of April. Global trade, travel, etc. the economy, our way of life and leisure and fear... This is quite similar. We're locked down, worried about getting sick, worried about love ones dying, worried about the next "attack" worried about the stock market and our finances and jobs... This is a very similar feeling that went on for months and years post-9/11/01. The only thing this lacks is the immediate violence of the 9/11 attacks and the anger at a human enemy. That really scarred people and I struggle to watch those old clips; it's just overwhelming sometimes and almost like it's not real.

For the immediate future, big adjustments. For the the short and medium term, probably big adjustments. Don't know about long-term...
Agreed 100%! You know what DOES screw with me though is for all what us millenials have seen, and the lessons we learned from the boomers and WWII/Depression gen most are just retarded!

You would think most would be awake to TPTB and the fact they can't save us in these situations (war, pandemic, economic issues) and be resilient as all hell

Nope...80% of these libtards can't even figure out where to pee.

(Protip; Behind the tree is pretty gender neutral) LOL
Oh, you should probably have some extra food/water, a FAK, and some basic staples. Hell, buy some pads if you think you're a woman, they're great for a bandaid in SHTF haha, even if you decide you want to have a pecker again

Ok, -rant over-
Quick reply to this message
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to RurbanGreyDude For This Useful Post:
Old 03-28-2020, 11:42 PM
Steverino's Avatar
Steverino Steverino is offline
Sam Adams was right....
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: SillyCon Valley
Posts: 8,590
Thanks: 3,487
Thanked 20,690 Times in 5,862 Posts
Default

in the states....COVID19 is currently a bigger long term threat to the Constitution....
Quick reply to this message
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Steverino For This Useful Post:
Old 03-29-2020, 12:27 AM
Hick Industries's Avatar
Hick Industries Hick Industries is online now
Live Secret, Live Happy
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Eastern Oklahoma
Posts: 15,013
Thanks: 18,530
Thanked 37,545 Times in 10,398 Posts
Default

If the death rate in Europe follows Italy (10%), this is going to be historic. Like black plauge historic. This could swing the demographics of an entire continent. Europe along could loose 30 million and European governments are run mostly by older folks.

If the death rate elsewhere follows south Korea or the USA, it will still kill 2%, and if we dont get a working vaccine by next winter, it is going to affect everyone. Thats another 100 million dead.

Before this event, members here would struggle at times to define what "The End Of The World As We Know It" means.

At least we wont have that problem anymore.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Hick Industries For This Useful Post:
Old 03-29-2020, 01:41 AM
Kansas Terri Kansas Terri is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,068
Thanks: 8,999
Thanked 14,448 Times in 5,449 Posts
Default

People did flip out like this with 9/11. The thing is, the number of cases in the USA has not yet peaked, and we have no idea how bad it will get, yet. This will end up with a bigger impact than 9/11, but how MUCH worse is not certain

It takes days after exposure before a person realizes that they are sick. By the time this lock down ends hopefully people who have it will KNOW that they have it and will stay home. This will slow down the spread. If one of the meds that are currently in trials does work out we will soon have an effective treatment, which will help out even more.

If we fail to get a handle on this, think Italy. One reason that Italy has a high death rate is because so many people got it at once that they lack enough equipment and the doctors cannot take care of them all. When you have 100 respirators but 500 patients need one, then a lot of people are going to die. And there is a limit to how many patients one doctor can see in a day.

Depending on how well the lock down works, and how long before they have an effective treatment, things might be better in a few weeks. Or, if we fail to get this under control then we might end up with a 10% death rate, like Italy does

As for the swine flu, it did not end up as badly as people feared, and so for most people it did not have a lasting effect.

This is why we prep: because the future is not certain
Quick reply to this message
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Kansas Terri For This Useful Post:
Old 03-29-2020, 02:16 AM
arleigh arleigh is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: southern california
Posts: 12,132
Thanks: 7,039
Thanked 11,747 Times in 5,958 Posts
Default

I remember back as a kid in the 1960s reading a national geographic concerning the alaska earth quake .Having been through a few quakes my self by then seeing the pictures of the devastation it was hard to wrap my head around it all. Not thinking about the date I kind of dismissed it as ancient history. But in 92 the Big Bear 6.2 shook me loose, and world events became much more real for me.
From that time on I would put my self in those events asking the question," what would I do if I were there?" One of the reasons I got into Search and rescue.
I always listened to the stories of older folk ,they had something to teach me, and though times change and technology changes, you can't rely on technology 100%.
All the more reason to learn skills from the past; things done by hand.
This particular event when it is over, will likely be forgotten like many of the past and all the same blunders will reoccur. because only a few really learn from mistakes. It seems that knowing about history does little good but entertainment.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to arleigh For This Useful Post:
Old 03-29-2020, 02:55 AM
Justme11's Avatar
Justme11 Justme11 is online now
French Prometheus unbound
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Houston
Posts: 31,231
Thanks: 35,639
Thanked 80,269 Times in 23,381 Posts
Default

I will offer a dissenting opinion.

9-11 changed the constitution somewhat permanently, at least until/if we the people repair the damage.
9-11 caused foreign wars/ occupations lasting for decades now. And has resulted in thousands of young men getting their legs blown off.

The emergency powers invoked by the government in response to Covid 19 will be (I hope) rescinded after the disease has passed through.
Covid 19 will not spawn a 20 year war, or a World War, or ration coupons for sugar, rubber and gas. You won't be forced to turn in your pots and pans to be melted down into war materials.

It is a huge deal, expensive, and will have a nasty death toll.
But not quite the long term damage to the country as the other events.

But one aspect I think is worse.
WWII and 9-11 caused the country to unite and respond with a world changing fury as external attacks are prone to do. And that unification, is a good thing even though borne of tragedy.

A damn virus doesn't really provoke that same unifying feeling. People will pay it lip service and sing songs, but it isn't the same.

This virus will pass through us in a couple months, one way or the other.
The dead will be mourned and buried and the country will restart and return to normal, with another couple trillion added to the debt.

Maybe some of the absolute zeroes exposed in this crisis will be removed from office and punished if so judged. So maybe a small bit of good will come of it. Politicians and other so called leaders that thought America didn't need to stockpile much of anything for a pandemic, other than coffins should feel the wrath of the citizens.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Justme11 For This Useful Post:
Old 03-29-2020, 04:02 AM
sixtus sixtus is offline
Hunter
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: South pacific
Posts: 1,881
Thanks: 2,690
Thanked 2,621 Times in 1,086 Posts
Default

The virus is made out to be bigger than anything recently, but what bothers me is the numbers involved, they are too low for this sort of reaction.

This thing is now into the poorest 3rd world continents. If its virulent as they say it should be wiping out numbers in the millions there. About 50 countries can barely lock down, another 50 in the world can not lock down at all, no government systems to pull it off and lockdown means their populations starve. With their over population, close living, poor hygeine and poor nutrition it is here we will see what the virus can really do. Many dont have the ability to measure cases and many will lie about fatality rates, but they cant hide body counts into 8 figures.

I have never said I wanted to see people die, but I will be worried in a way if I do not see it occur as it means we have not been fed correct info on Covid. The regular flu is already into the tens of millions of cases this season in these countries. Covid is still barely packing on a few thousand cases a day.

I also worry once this runs its course, whether we get back to business as normal. In my country at least we will fry the small business sector very soon. Big business will gobble up their remains. We are also emptying the budgets with welfare and stimulus packages. Police are manning sites people commune, they are shutting down firearms purchases, cops are handing out fines for cohorting in groups larger than two, the government is offering some of the laid off workers jobs in welfare and social services. Its like they waved a wand and we got insta- communism.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to sixtus For This Useful Post:
Old 03-29-2020, 05:02 AM
oalo again oalo again is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Wherever I go, there I am.
Posts: 20
Thanks: 69
Thanked 89 Times in 17 Posts
Default

Globally, I think the last time this many people were affected was the tsunami in 2004. That had everyone watching, praying, etc. Its impact on the world was much shorter lived (not for the affected areas, obviously). It had a much higher body count, but was largely forgotten by the western world inside within a year.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to oalo again For This Useful Post:
Old 03-29-2020, 05:10 AM
sixtus sixtus is offline
Hunter
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: South pacific
Posts: 1,881
Thanks: 2,690
Thanked 2,621 Times in 1,086 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oalo again View Post
Globally, I think the last time this many people were affected was the tsunami in 2004. That had everyone watching, praying, etc. Its impact on the world was much shorter lived (not for the affected areas, obviously). It had a much higher body count, but was largely forgotten by the western world inside within a year.
The Tsunami 2004 was tiny potatoes, 80% of the countries in the world didnt care. It had a high body count but still less than malaria deaths for any one year.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to sixtus For This Useful Post:
Old 03-29-2020, 05:25 AM
Aerindel's Avatar
Aerindel Aerindel is offline
Abnormality biased.
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Montananistan.
Posts: 7,779
Thanks: 10,137
Thanked 21,047 Times in 6,156 Posts
Default

The thing about this is that its not an Event, its not just an earthquake or tsunami or terrorist attack that hits, and is over in less than an hour.

If this was 9/11, it would be like if dozens of small planes where crashing into buildings across the country, every hour around the clock for weeks and nobody was able to stop them.

If it was tsunami, it would not be a big wave that killed hundreds of thousands in a few minutes, it would be a tide that rose a foot, every hour on the hour relentlessly.

Every day this goes on, people become used to this new normal. Many people will NEVER go back to normal. There will be a name for it some day, Corona Induced Social disfunction or something and it will be with us for a generation.

It may not even be a bad thing....but it will be a thing. There will be changes in our society that we can't even imagine yet.

Health screenings at work may never go away. The plastic sneeze guards at stores may never go away. Cruise ships may never sail again. Schools and colleges as we knew them may never return.

The dead may indeed be very quickly forgotten, but the social changes will not be. For the rest of my life presidential candidates will be asked either "What will you do to stop the next Corona virus?" or....likely....."How will you stop the Corona virus?"
Quick reply to this message
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Aerindel For This Useful Post:
Old 03-29-2020, 07:10 AM
bilmac bilmac is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: West Wyoming
Posts: 5,175
Thanks: 5,713
Thanked 7,037 Times in 2,985 Posts
Default

I think that a lot about this plague being what it is because Trump is the president. The media is trying hard to get him one more time. The plague when Obummer was pres was worse and he was busy playing golf and handled it horribly, but as far as the news, his plague was no big thing.

It's too early to tell how bad this will turn out, what has it been, just a month or two? The medics haven't had ANY time to come up with their magic yet. This time because of Trumps response things are happening at warp speed compared to previous plagues. I expect that vaccines and cures will be appearing soon, and by this time next year it will all be a distant memory too.

AND, because of Trump's actions he will be president, and go down in history as one of our very best.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to bilmac For This Useful Post:
Old 03-29-2020, 08:05 AM
goose3's Avatar
goose3 goose3 is offline
Capability, not scenarios
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 11,519
Thanks: 28,375
Thanked 29,806 Times in 8,739 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixtus View Post
The virus is made out to be bigger than anything recently, but what bothers me is the numbers involved, they are too low for this sort of reaction.
What makes the reaction actually realistic is the understanding of an exponential expansion of infected people...and overwhelming the health care system as a result.

I've had discussions here with a guy who's cognitively incapable of understanding this. You CANNOT look at numbers at one point in time and draw any meaningful conclusions. It's the TREND that matters, and the numbers are increasing exponentially.

And if one doesn't understand what that means, then they should advance no opinions about this, as they simply can't correctly parse the problem.

If that sounds harsh, I apologize. But it's also true. When my car doesn't work, I rely on a mechanic to fix it because it's become too complicated to figure out (unlike the old days). I don't substitute my own ill-considered understanding of auto mechanics--I let an expert apply his/her expertise. It's no different in trying to understand a crisis where such understanding depends on an understanding of data.

*****************


The same should obtain when it comes to pandemics. Amateur data analysts shouldn't be doing this unless they have a clear understanding of what the trends mean, and whether they're linear (they're not) or exponential (they are).

Is it an overreaction? These kinds of things can only be determined after the fact. I have a distant relative who's in the immunology field--that's who I get my information from. Their view is this is an emergency.

And like many decisions we must make, we may only learn if our reaction wasn't good enough, not that it was.
__________________
-
Beat the native search function: Type "site:survivalistboards.com" in Google's search box, followed by search parameters. You can use normal conventions, limit by date, etc.

There actually is an official survival guide, but you have to write it yourself - and edit it as the situation changes - and revise it as you learn from your mistakes - and start all over again when things change again. (AceScanner)

Last edited by goose3; 05-25-2020 at 10:54 AM..
Quick reply to this message
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to goose3 For This Useful Post:
Old 03-29-2020, 08:19 AM
shado shado is offline
Target Shooter
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 525
Thanks: 436
Thanked 1,290 Times in 341 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RurbanGreyDude View Post
Agreed 100%! You know what DOES screw with me though is for all what us millenials have seen, and the lessons we learned from the boomers and WWII/Depression gen most are just retarded!

You would think most would be awake to TPTB and the fact they can't save us in these situations (war, pandemic, economic issues) and be resilient as all hell

-
It's normalcy bias and it will happen to you, too. I'm the oldest of the Xers. Graduated high school in a horrible economy. My first car loan had an interest rate of 11% and I was thrilled to get one that low. People now whine when they can't get 0%.

The unemployment rate was double digits when I was in high school, and short term interest rates are close to 20%. 20%! That means if you take out a car loan for 4 years you'll pay more than double by the end of it.

Then there was the massive job losses throughout the 1990s, and it brings us up to 2001.

All we have to do is get on with it. There is no magic, and no generation has it easy. In some ways millennials have it very easy, because life has been so, despite the post 9/11 recession. In some ways they haven't. A lot of the ways they haven't are bad choices. (100K for student loan debt is not a good choice, and yes, it is a choice, and no, I'm not dissing you or your generation).
Quick reply to this message
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to shado For This Useful Post:
Old 03-29-2020, 09:59 AM
bigg777's Avatar
bigg777 bigg777 is offline
Hunter
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,010
Thanks: 215
Thanked 1,759 Times in 663 Posts
Default

In my estimation, the world hasn't seen an event like this pandemic since 1918-1919 or WWII. The entire human population is at peril, on every continent, whether from the possibility of disease, famine or violent assault. It is too early to know the full extent of the peril, but the potential is tremendous.

Hopefully, our outstanding medical and scientific communities can stanch the spread of the virus and quickly formulate a cure or at least a regimen that will allow those exposed to the virus to live long, healthful lives, like they've done with HIV. The reports coming from medicine are promising.

God bless us all.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to bigg777 For This Useful Post:
Old 03-29-2020, 10:58 AM
Iamfarticus's Avatar
Iamfarticus Iamfarticus is online now
Survivor
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: LI, NY
Posts: 7,693
Thanks: 6,021
Thanked 15,209 Times in 5,488 Posts
Default

If this thing runs into June and July I will say that we are in trouble. Italy and NYC are hot spots. NYC is possible to contain IF it gets locked down yesterday. With the liberals running the show, that won't happen.

Places like interior Africa stand to be decimated since potable water is a luxury.

Probably too soon to say what the overall impact will be here and around the world.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Iamfarticus For This Useful Post:
Reply

Bookmarks



Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Survivalist Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Gender
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright © Kevin Felts 2006 - 2015,
Green theme by http://www.themesbydesign.net