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Old 04-16-2019, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob3rd View Post
Go to the second video, it's only 32 seconds long. In the last half of the video they inlarge the video and slow it down. At about 17 seconds in you can clearly see him pull it from the pocket. It barely clears his pocket, not in any condition to be fired when they shoot. They tell him to drop the gun and as soon as his hand touches it they shoot, if they had shot one second sooner it would still have been in his pocket. They escalated the situation when they told him to take the gun in his hands, until that point he couldn't shoot anyone.
`

Perhaps the officers slow motion zoom vision was not working properly, so all she saw was full speed real time with a non functioning zoom vision, a guy who had not been complying pull a gun out instead of dropping it & putting his hands UP.

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Old 04-16-2019, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob3rd View Post
Go to the second video, it's only 32 seconds long. In the last half of the video they inlarge the video and slow it down. At about 17 seconds in you can clearly see him pull it from the pocket. It barely clears his pocket, not in any condition to be fired when they shoot. They tell him to drop the gun and as soon as his hand touches it they shoot, if they had shot one second sooner it would still have been in his pocket. They escalated the situation when they told him to take the gun in his hands, until that point he couldn't shoot anyone.
Enlarging and slowing the video down.

Yeah, that's really fair analysis for the cop standing there shouting ignored orders at a guy pointing a gun at people moments before. Presumably she's not interested in dying from the bullet of some lowlife that day.

If you have to enlarge and slow down videos to get a glimpse of evidence to support your position, you don't have a leg to stand on. She didn't have the luxury of watching it unfold in slow-motion on a big screen while drinking a latte.

That shooting was happening in real time, with a million concerns and variables going on.
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Old 04-16-2019, 09:07 PM
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Slam dunk good shoot. It was probably ok to pull the gun out but transferring it to his left hand was a big mistake. Furtive movement and another bad guy gone. Just like that.
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Old 04-16-2019, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by sarco2000 View Post
I don't know about that. Looking at only the video (and I admit there can be more to it than just the video), he seemed to be pulling the gun out to drop it, UNDER THE COP'S ORDERS, and that is when they shot him. (You can't tell in the video because it's too small, but the news article said he was holding it by the barrel.)

As soon as he tried to comply, he was shot and killed. Up to that point, he was alive. It would make me hesitate to comply too. If a cop is telling me to take out my gun and drop it, I'm going to be thinking "As soon as I touch it they're going to kill me!"

.
Where would your hands be while you were being non compliant? Would you be playing the game of hiding your hands to keep them guessing?



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Originally Posted by Bob3rd View Post
You mean when she says [B]"Let me see your hands, let me see your hand now! Now!"[B/] ? At that point she can't even see him, he's squatting on the other side of the car.
That’s EXACTLY why they were telling him to show his hands. If he had simply put his hands up, they could have seen them.

How do you not get it?



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Originally Posted by Bob3rd View Post
Go to the second video, it's only 32 seconds long. In the last half of the video they inlarge the video and slow it down. At about 17 seconds in you can clearly see him pull it from the pocket. It barely clears his pocket, not in any condition to be fired when they shoot. They tell him to drop the gun and as soon as his hand touches it they shoot, if they had shot one second sooner it would still have been in his pocket. They escalated the situation when they told him to take the gun in his hands, until that point he couldn't shoot anyone.
If the cop was bionic and could see in slow mo, maybe that argument would make sense. To real people in real life at real speed...not so much.

As to the other thing....if he had raised his hands the first time, he’d still be alive.

Or better yet...If he hadn’t been threatening people in the restaurant, he’d still be alive.

I’m kind of tired of people playing this game...you know how NOT to get killed by cops?

Don’t break the law. Don’t pretend to break the law. Don’t be the guy the cops are interested in, even if you didn’t break any laws. Don’t act like an idiot when you have been dumb enough to get the cops interested in you, regardless of what you did or didn’t do.

It works, and I have proof. In 55 years, I have used those techniques, and I have never been killed by the police.

It’s simple.
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Old 04-16-2019, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob3rd View Post
With that I'm through with this thread.
Yes, it would be foolish to keep digging the hole you're in.
There is only one person at fault in this incident and he wasn't a cop.
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Old 04-16-2019, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by SeaBeeDaddy View Post
If this were a case where the man simply had a firearm and was surprised or confused by police I would 100% back him.
So IF they had the wrong guy, and the wrong guy acted the same way, that somehow means that the exact same shooting isn't justified?

People are adding a lot of nuance to this where it doesn't need to be. Either it was a justified shooting based on the law and based ONLY the circumstances during the shooting, or it wasn't, and that justification has nothing to do with what happened before the cops got there.

To say, "Well someone said on the telephone to 911 earlier that some guy was pointing a gun at people" is completely irrelevant, we know that 10 different witnesses see 10 different things, so eyewitness accounts are not credible, and the ends don't justify the means. Cops don't mete out justice, they bring in the criminals for justice by a judge and jury. And you can't just shoot people because you're scared, even if you're a cop.

A. As far as I can tell, the cops didn't even know for a fact that they had the right guy because they didn't witness the preceding events themselves, and:

B. The cop is only justified in shooting him if she has a good reason to believe he may harm her or somebody else. Or if they're afraid he will escape and hurt someone later.

The second item is not clear from the video at all, and I think (based on the video alone) she simply panicked and pulled the trigger. I think she made a mistake. There is nothing in the video (and I believe in the law) to say otherwise. That's why she didn't want the video coming out.

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Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
That shooting was happening in real time, with a million concerns and variables going on.
Which is why she made a mistake. Actually, it's amazing it doesn't happen more often, which says a lot about the quality of most law enforcement.

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Old 04-17-2019, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by sarco2000 View Post
So IF they had the wrong guy, and the wrong guy acted the same way, that somehow means that the exact same shooting isn't justified?

People are adding a lot of nuance to this where it doesn't need to be. Either it was a justified shooting based on the law and based ONLY the circumstances during the shooting, or it wasn't, and that justification has nothing to do with what happened before the cops got there.

To say, "Well someone said on the telephone to 911 earlier that some guy was pointing a gun at people" is completely irrelevant, we know that 10 different witnesses see 10 different things, so eyewitness accounts are not credible, and the ends don't justify the means. Cops don't mete out justice, they bring in the criminals for justice by a judge and jury. And you can't just shoot people because you're scared, even if you're a cop.

A. As far as I can tell, the cops didn't even know for a fact that they had the right guy because they didn't witness the preceding events themselves, and:

B. The cop is only justified in shooting him if she has a good reason to believe he may harm her or somebody else. Or if they're afraid he will escape and hurt someone later.

The second item is not clear from the video at all, and I think (based on the video alone) she simply panicked and pulled the trigger. I think she made a mistake. There is nothing in the video (and I believe in the law) to say otherwise. That's why she didn't want the video coming out.

Which is why she made a mistake. Actually, it's amazing it doesn't happen more often, which says a lot about the quality of most law enforcement.
1. Yes, sadly, if cops have a mistaken guy who - when confronted with clear commands he acts in a noncomplaint and threatening way, the cops are likely in the legal clear to shoot him, based on the totality of the reason for the call.
* Example - as tragic and off putting as it was, there was a cop who responded to a "swatting" call in Kansas. The cop believed the homeowner was armed and murdered and kidnapped people. The cop shot the noncompliant home owner on his front porch. Homeowner was totally innocent. No charges for the cop.

* You would be wise to practice the following behavior. Regardless if you think the stop is justified or the commands are justified, you darn well better follow them when cops have guns drawn on you. I'm also living proof. I've had many interactions with cops, including guns drawn as I was the wrong suspect. I did exactly as I was told. I'm still living.

2. Justified or not justified shootings are absolutely going to take into the totality of the circumstances leading up to the shooting. You're living on Mars if you don't believe that. Many examples reflect this.
* The Philandro Castile shooting. Officer should not have been charged, it was a political prosecution. He was acquitted. Castile fit the description of a recent armed robbery suspect, and was believed to be reaching for a gun when told not to.
* The Meza Arizona hotel shooting from reports with a man aiming a gun out the hotel windows, per the 911 call that summoned cops. Officer was acquitted. There was reasonable apprehension that the man was armed and noncompliant and reaching for a gun.
* Lots and lots of other examples where the objective or subjective believe in the mind of the defender or cop goes to the totality of the situation (i.e. belief the person is armed and willing to use a weapon), including weapons and non-compliant and threatening behavior.

3. You've flippantly stated "you can't just shoot people because you're scared," and also suggested the officer was panicked. Well, yes, as a matter of fact, being "scared" as you put it, is a legal qualifier for self defense. It's generally a bit more technical and goes like, "Reasonable fear of imminent serious bodily harm or death to self or another innocent person." So let's just review why this does in fact apply.
* Responding to 911 call of a man with a gun pointing it at people and assaulting people.
* Arrives to find non-compliant man (presumably identified by others) as the perp. Man won't show hands, won't acknowledge cops, won't comply in any fashion for extended period of time, and shows signs of a counter ambush based on behavior/body language (looking around, furtive movements, concealed hands, etc.).
* And he draws a gun. At no time did they tell him to draw his gun. They said (because they couldn't see his hands due to his noncompliance) to put the gun down, assuming he was holding it. Had he shown his empty hands, the commands would have been different.

You'd be a liar if you think standing 10' away you're not in fear of your life or someone else's life being taken. So, "scared" is another way of stating it shorthand I suppose. I also don't see her panicked whatsoever. Calm clear consistent commands. She told her partner she was crossing in front of him. Good field of view, i.e. I think it was she that told the bystander to move away from the perp, so that is good situational awareness. She cleared the gun away from the perp. I don't see her panicky at all.

4. She did not make a mistake. No reasonable person would believe she made a mistake given the information she knew and the behaviors and inputs she was processing. You strike me as a person never placed under this stress. It's not easy. She handled it very well. I do not see anything she did as a mistake. This is 100% the fault of the perp. She was reactive to a man with a gun who won't comply and appears to be preparing to launch a counter attack, and drew a gun instead of showing his empty hands. They told him to put the gun down. It was in his pocket so effectively "down" and no need to draw it.

Quite simply, given two choices of showing your empty hands (and living) and drawing a gun (and increasing the risks of being shot and dying) the obvious choice is to show your hands. He drew a gun.

In summary, totally unconvinced there's any evidence of a bad shoot.
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Old 04-17-2019, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by sarco2000 View Post
I don't know about that. Looking at only the video (and I admit there can be more to it than just the video), he seemed to be pulling the gun out to drop it, UNDER THE COP'S ORDERS, and that is when they shot him. (You can't tell in the video because it's too small, but the news article said he was holding it by the barrel.)

As soon as he tried to comply, he was shot and killed. Up to that point, he was alive. It would make me hesitate to comply too. If a cop is telling me to take out my gun and drop it, I'm going to be thinking "As soon as I touch it they're going to kill me!"

.
That's when you put your hands over your head so high you look like a cartoon character and let them approach and take it off of you.
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Old 04-17-2019, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by sarco2000 View Post
So IF they had the wrong guy, and the wrong guy acted the same way, that somehow means that the exact same shooting isn't justified?

People are adding a lot of nuance to this where it doesn't need to be. Either it was a justified shooting based on the law and based ONLY the circumstances during the shooting, or it wasn't, and that justification has nothing to do with what happened before the cops got there.

To say, "Well someone said on the telephone to 911 earlier that some guy was pointing a gun at people" is completely irrelevant, we know that 10 different witnesses see 10 different things, so eyewitness accounts are not credible, and the ends don't justify the means. Cops don't mete out justice, they bring in the criminals for justice by a judge and jury. And you can't just shoot people because you're scared, even if you're a cop.

A. As far as I can tell, the cops didn't even know for a fact that they had the right guy because they didn't witness the preceding events themselves, and:

B. The cop is only justified in shooting him if she has a good reason to believe he may harm her or somebody else. Or if they're afraid he will escape and hurt someone later.

The second item is not clear from the video at all, and I think (based on the video alone) she simply panicked and pulled the trigger. I think she made a mistake. There is nothing in the video (and I believe in the law) to say otherwise. That's why she didn't want the video coming out.



Which is why she made a mistake. Actually, it's amazing it doesn't happen more often, which says a lot about the quality of most law enforcement.

.
IF it was the wrong guy, then comply with the officers commands. You might get handcuffed & patted down. IF he WASN'T the guy, the bystanders will usually say "No, not him, the OTHER guy!" How do you know the people milling around hadn't clearly identified him as the guy waving the gun around? All the guy had to do was comply with their commands & if he was in the clear they'd get it fixed in a few moments. I've been temporarily detained when I was at assaults, usually for no other apparent reason than being big & apparently mean looking or so I'm told. IF I had resisted & done dumb ****, I probably would've either caught a good thumping from a bunch of cops or maybe shot too. Instead, I complied & remained calm & cooperative until they figured out who was who & people told them I wasn't involved in one case & only tried to pull one guy off another guy in another instance. The only one to blame in this is the guy who refused to comply with the officers commands.

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Old 04-17-2019, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by ajole View Post
I’m kind of tired of people playing this game...you know how NOT to get killed by cops?

Don’t break the law. Don’t pretend to break the law. Don’t be the guy the cops are interested in, even if you didn’t break any laws. Don’t act like an idiot when you have been dumb enough to get the cops interested in you, regardless of what you did or didn’t do.

It works, and I have proof. In 55 years, I have used those techniques, and I have never been killed by the police.

It’s simple.
Yep... It's worked for me too... for over 60 years...

It's amazing what can happen when you DON'T DIRECTLY DISOBEY the cops SIMPLE commands, REPEATED for over 40 seconds while they point a gun at you...
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Old 04-17-2019, 12:37 PM
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* Oh, but he said he was complying AFTER he was shot? Um. Suspect lie brosef... it's what they do.

You're right, they do. But they also follow orders and don't expect to be shot in the process. Why didn't they just say get your hands up high and disarm him? Why didn't they have him spread-eagle on the ground and then disarm him? SO many what-ifs and possiblys.
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Old 04-17-2019, 12:59 PM
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What was his criminal history btw? Not a single news outlet mentions anything about that, and since they are so anti-police, I can only assume he has a one.
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Old 04-17-2019, 04:50 PM
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You're right, they do. But they also follow orders and don't expect to be shot in the process. Why didn't they just say get your hands up high and disarm him? Why didn't they have him spread-eagle on the ground and then disarm him? SO many what-ifs and possiblys.
He was told to put his hands up:
Quote:
One factor that does shore up CMPD’s argument that Kerl “perceived an imminent, deadly threat”: A full 40 seconds elapsed from Kerl’s first command to “let me see your hands,” and 30 seconds from her first command to drop the gun. During that time, by my count, she and Deal issued a minimum of 19 commands for Franklin to drop the gun, but he remained crouched next to the passenger door of a Honda Accord, stared straight ahead, as if dazed, and barely moved. (There may have been more than 19 commands, as some of them overlap.) What was going through his mind? We’ll never know.
Entire video here:
http://www.charlottemagazine.com/Cha...klin-Shooting/
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Old 04-17-2019, 05:09 PM
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My only complaint about the incident is too many people were shouting commands at the guy. You see it all the time and it's understandable, what with the adrenaline and danger inherent in the situation. I don't think it changes the shoot from justifiable to not. Still, things may have been different had only one officer been giving commands; it couldn't have hurt.
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Old 04-17-2019, 05:30 PM
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Good shoot. Enjoy your short vacation until the department head shrinker says your good to go. Then go get another hood rat.
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by America's Patriot View Post
You're right, they do. But they also follow orders and don't expect to be shot in the process. Why didn't they just say get your hands up high and disarm him? Why didn't they have him spread-eagle on the ground and then disarm him? SO many what-ifs and possiblys.
They started with that command. He didn't follow it.

Also, the cops were PLACED in a bad situation by the perps refusal to show his hands or put them up. Consider that he was holding the gun in his hands which were concealed by his body. Naturally an order to DROP THE GUN is going to be better than ANY order to move his hands in any direction, such as "put your hands up." Obviously, if he had a gun in his hands, then putting his hands up would require him to be pointing the gun in some threatening direction at least part of the way up. It's a very tough situation for the cops that this man created. So, assuming (since you cannot see it) he has a gun in his concealed hands (because he did not follow prior instructions to show his hands) the order then is to drop the gun.

They did NOT however order him to draw a gun. So not only did he not follow instructions but he actively did something really dumb and dangerous by drawing a gun.

He'd have obviously been better to just show his empty hands. Not rocket science.

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Originally Posted by America's Patriot View Post
What was his criminal history btw? Not a single news outlet mentions anything about that, and since they are so anti-police, I can only assume he has a one.
You mean other than witnesses calling cops saying he was assaulting people with a gun?

Get real.
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by America's Patriot View Post
What was his criminal history btw? Not a single news outlet mentions anything about that, and since they are so anti-police, I can only assume he has a one.
.

So it matters if a person waving a gun around & threatening people has a criminal record? Not to mention how would they have known the person had a criminal record when they got there? I didn't see anytime when he handed them an I.D. or told them his name, dob, etc. If someone is in a position to kill you & you think they are going to, I don't care if it was Mother Teresa pulling a gun on me, she's going down!

.
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:35 PM
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My only complaint about the incident is too many people were shouting commands at the guy. You see it all the time and it's understandable, what with the adrenaline and danger inherent in the situation. I don't think it changes the shoot from justifiable to not. Still, things may have been different had only one officer been giving commands; it couldn't have hurt.
The commands were easy and clear to understand, even if overlapping. Had they not issued commands, they'd be criticized for not issuing commands.

No way this perp could have misunderstood what the police wanted. He was purposefully ignoring and refusing to follow the commands. I fully believe he had no intention to comply and was mounting the courage and timing for a counter attack based on his body language and noncompliance. While reasonable minds could differ, it's all speculation.

The person in control of all of this was the dead suspect. He started it the dangerous chain of events, and he refused to back down when amply opportunity was given, and then he drew a gun on the cops when that is CLEARLY not what they were commanding. They wanted to see empty hands which he never produced. Instead he produced a gun.
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Old 04-18-2019, 11:16 AM
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So, I spoke with my son about it and he and his partner both said the same thing. The first time he reached down, to them, it looked liked he may have racked the pistol.

After our long discussion, we all came into agreement that this is a training issue. Training should include very precise commands... ie. reach down with your left hand, slowly pull the firearm from your waist BY THE BARREL, keeping your right hand in the air, place the firearm on the ground, stand up with both hands raised, take 3 big steps forward, lay on the ground with your hands above your head.

We all think that because of the high stress (on both parties), commands are confusing. Also, when an officer screams "drop it" 20 times in 40 seconds and they don't do it, it doesn't necessarily mean they aren't complying. It means they are ****ing scared, confused and afraid they will get shot... and in most cases, reaching for that firearm is when they get shot most often.
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Old 04-18-2019, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
That is what happens when you give up your liberties for the illusion of security.
ga'day mate...put the shrimp on the baaarbie!

Too bad a customer wasn't exercising their right to have a firearm. Must be a no-firearm zone, or a state with repressive firearm laws. Yup, gun laws just hurt law abiding people, as criminals don't obey laws...never have never will.
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