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Old 11-22-2019, 04:33 PM
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DON'T CARE about how "neat" a mag loading shotgun may look or the idea, but as I said, just not practical when you consider the speed you can run a semi in today's world.

My competition gun was an EARLY Benelli M1 Super 90. How early? It came with H&K markings on it.
9 ball 00 buck.
In 8 pin tournaments I used to run around 3 seconds. That is 8 controlled aimed shots on 8 pins.(or.. well.. 8 really quick flash shots as you are swinging the gun that you have run literally HUNDREDS of cases of buck through.) That is 72- .32 caliber balls whistling down range much faster than any subgun can run to put the same number down range.
that said
how much speed reloading does anyone really see as a necessity at the receiving end?

If you are looking to repel hundreds of hostiles.. or even 20 or 30, you need a different tool.

Additional Benelli story..
Early on in competition I acquired ANOTHER Super 90 I found that was only a few hundred numbers apart from my comp gun. I bought it NIB for a back up gun for when I had a problem with gun 1....
Fast forward 14 years... I was getting out of competition and decided to sell Benelli number 2. It was STILL NIB.

Benelli number 1- mid to high 5 digit numbers of slug and 00 buck run through it(maybe more, no way to figure after all the years.). NEVER malfunctioned or broke a part or ever stopped running. Don't ask my why. In one afternoon I had several team and individual events to run and went through a full case of 00 and never left the line. I carried cans of gun scrubber, not to clean it but to cool it down so I could handle it. I wore a PAST shoulder pad and a PAST left padded glove so my hand wouldn't get eaten by the forearm checkering and the HEAT. At the end of the day I went to clean it and the sludge in the action was so thick is was built up like frosting on a store bought birthday cake.
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Old 11-22-2019, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
DON'T CARE about how "neat" a mag loading shotgun may look or the idea, but as I said, just not practical when you consider the speed you can run a semi in today's world.

My competition gun was an EARLY Benelli M1 Super 90. How early? It came with H&K markings on it.
9 ball 00 buck.
In 8 pin tournaments I used to run around 3 seconds. That is 8 controlled aimed shots on 8 pins.(or.. well.. 8 really quick flash shots as you are swinging the gun that you have run literally HUNDREDS of cases of buck through.) That is 72- .32 caliber balls whistling down range much faster than any subgun can run to put the same number down range.
that said
how much speed reloading does anyone really see as a necessity at the receiving end?

If you are looking to repel hundreds of hostiles.. or even 20 or 30, you need a different tool.

Additional Benelli story..
Early on in competition I acquired ANOTHER Super 90 I found that was only a few hundred numbers apart from my comp gun. I bought it NIB for a back up gun for when I had a problem with gun 1....
Fast forward 14 years... I was getting out of competition and decided to sell Benelli number 2. It was STILL NIB.

Benelli number 1- mid to high 5 digit numbers of slug and 00 buck run through it(maybe more, no way to figure after all the years.). NEVER malfunctioned or broke a part or ever stopped running. Don't ask my why. In one afternoon I had several team and individual events to run and went through a full case of 00 and never left the line. I carried cans of gun scrubber, not to clean it but to cool it down so I could handle it. I wore a PAST shoulder pad and a PAST left padded glove so my hand wouldn't get eaten by the forearm checkering and the HEAT. At the end of the day I went to clean it and the sludge in the action was so thick is was built up like frosting on a store bought birthday cake. [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.survivalistboards.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG][IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.survivalistboards.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif[/IMG]
I can see a semi auto or even a pump shotgun being valuable for crowd control esp at medium distances.
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Old 11-22-2019, 07:23 PM
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I can see a semi auto or even a pump shotgun being valuable for crowd control esp at medium distances.
AT SOME of the competitions we had slug events where you were shooting steel KD targets out to 110yds. The energy out of a slug at that range is still AWESOME; when I saw the same targets get hit with full .7.62 loads and just wiggle.

Taking your time to concentrate on the sights you could hold maybe foot size groups at 200 just using the irons. For those events I saw a lot of guys running 1100Remmys with LONG rifled slug bbls and those guns would shoot pretty tight. Like shooting a BIG bore rifle without it costing $10. a round.
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Old 11-23-2019, 05:23 AM
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I have a Remington with the magazine, DM series. It holds only 6 rounds, Mossbergs are 10. I passed up a Shockwave with the magazine at a show, the $$ was right. The Remington ran me over $500.

I picked up 3 spare mags for it, may add another 3. That one sits in a case by the foot of my bed.
I think both the shockwave and tac-14 have a magazine version.

That kinda confused me

Thought the whole point of them was to be a compact unit?
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Old 11-23-2019, 07:47 AM
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Whatever mossberg does
Innovation-wise
Remington follows-up in short order
They seen to have a spy working at Mossberg
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Old 11-23-2019, 09:32 AM
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I believe there is much difficulty trying to keep a secret when in the gun manufacturing business.
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Old 12-23-2019, 03:15 AM
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Whatever happened to the standard shotgun you could just grab along with maybe a bandoleer or sling bag of shells and tactically reload behind cover with another shell or two of buckshot? All due respect, but now i've turned my shotgun into yet another weapon that is magazine dependent to operate. I always carry a small revolver with rounds-usually a few speedloaders and a few 8 shot Tuff strips, but we know we can also operate that revolver without having to have another device. By the way, the Rem 1100 V3 Tac 13 12 gauge semi with the 13'' barrel and double vent gas system is awesome! My favorite snake gun!
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Old 12-23-2019, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Cujothedogofwar View Post
Whatever happened to the standard shotgun you could just grab along with maybe a bandoleer or sling bag of shells and tactically reload behind cover with another shell or two of buckshot? All due respect, but now i've turned my shotgun into yet another weapon that is magazine dependent to operate. I always carry a small revolver with rounds-usually a few speedloaders and a few 8 shot Tuff strips, but we know we can also operate that revolver without having to have another device. By the way, the Rem 1100 V3 Tac 13 12 gauge semi with the 13'' barrel and double vent gas system is awesome! My favorite snake gun!
so you want to go to a firefight where between shots of your own, you're concentrating on reloading rather than paying attention to what the other guy is doing?.. what happens if he comes around the corner and you have a finger halfway in the loading gate to keep it topped off?.. for the time it takes you to load just one of those cartridges into a tube, a magazine will reload all of them

tube is fine if all you're doing is shooting a few geese or a turkey, but in a firefight, you're better off with a more suited weapon which is preferably a semi automatic rifle
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Old 12-25-2019, 06:30 AM
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Why? Just why? You have to have the tube for the pump to slide down anyway. I mean a lever action with a detachable mag or a semi auto makes sense. But a pump ? I just don’t get it ?
Like many new firearms, the prime reason for their existence is to sell. That's all the real sense it has to make. From a defensive standpoint it's ridiculous for several reasons.

1.) It's cumbersome having a long box sticking out of the bottom of an otherwise sleek, good handling weapon.

2.) In the largest capacity, (21 rounds total in the Mossberg), it adds a LOT of weight. How much? Tape a box of shotgun shells to the bottom of your pump's receiver, and you'll find out quick.

3.) The magazines are stupidly expensive in relationship to the cost of the gun. An extra 20 round magazine in the Mossberg costs over $80.00. (Most of the places that are able to keep them in stock charge $100.00 or more each plus shipping). Compare that to a 20 or 30 round AR magazine that can be had for under $10 bucks.

4.) If 8 rounds of 12 gauge ammunition is not going to get you out of a defensive situation, let's face it, you lost. Or else have been playing far too much, "Call Of Duty".

With that said they are a fun idea, and both Mossberg and Remington will sell a lot of them. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Just as long as people don't start trying to justify them as some type of, "necessary feature" on a modern, self defense shotgun. Because quite simply they're not. What they will be is a blast to play with.
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Old 12-25-2019, 03:31 PM
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There is some idiot member that says he shoots as fast with his pump action as a semi-auto.
I have a "few" pump actions, semi-autos, and SxSs
Here is fact

"The Expert Deferral
Jeff Cramblit is a professional 3-gun competitor who shoots for Team Benelli. His strong suit is the shotgun discipline.

“If there is a little distance between targets you can just about shoot a pump as fast because you can work the action while the gun is in transition between targets,” he said, “But if you’re shooting something like a plate rack, a pump has no chance at all.”

Perhaps the most famous and best all-around shooter in the world, Jerry Miculek, said: "I've shot .11 and .12 [second] splits out of my Mossberg 930 shotgun. I can't come anywhere close to that [with a pump.]"

https://www.americanhunter.org/artic...mi-automatics/
Take a body with equal skill via a off the shelf pump gun ( 870/ 500), vs the same via semiauto like a off the shelf Benelli MS90 and the semi will blow the pump out of the water concerning speed/ accuracy.

This is nothing new and has been demonstrated since the 80s at the least.

A mag fed pump would speed up reloading time in theory, but cannot state either from actual 1st hand.

Only mag fed shotguns I have used were the " AK types such as the Saiga 12. Not even close to the same as a Super90 and especially the 121 M1 concerning speed.
Mags are expensive, heavy when loaded, and did not prove reliable enough for competition...let alone as a security weapon. The one thing nice about the Saiga12 with several mags = liquidation at a decent price.

I have no idea if they fare any better with a pump gun, and would like to hear from folks who has put one thru the paces...so to speak.

11B
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Old 12-25-2019, 03:45 PM
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Not enough history of reliability with the configuration for me to consider using it as a HD alternative to a standard slide action or semi auto shotgun.
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Old 01-03-2020, 02:19 PM
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Another option to consider is something like the Kel-Tec KSG - it has two side-by-side switchable tubes and holds 14+1 rounds. I've been using one for about a year now and it's been great. It won't reduce your reload time, but it does significantly cut down on how frequently you need to reload. Plus you can load slugs in one tube and buckshot in the other and easily switch between them as necessary. You can usually find them for around $750.
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Old 01-03-2020, 02:38 PM
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Another option to consider is something like the Kel-Tec KSG - it has two side-by-side switchable tubes and holds 14+1 rounds. I've been using one for about a year now and it's been great. It won't reduce your reload time, but it does significantly cut down on how frequently you need to reload. Plus you can load slugs in one tube and buckshot in the other and easily switch between them as necessary. You can usually find them for around $750.
The KSG is at the top of my WANT list and will probably be my next purchase. I'm glad to hear that your experience with it is positive.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
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Old 01-03-2020, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by johnmcd View Post
Another option to consider is something like the Kel-Tec KSG - it has two side-by-side switchable tubes and holds 14+1 rounds. I've been using one for about a year now and it's been great. It won't reduce your reload time, but it does significantly cut down on how frequently you need to reload. Plus you can load slugs in one tube and buckshot in the other and easily switch between them as necessary. You can usually find them for around $750.
Itís a cool toy, but doesnít strike me as professional duty gear!

The readily available hard working pump shotguns in this country seem to be mainly the Remington 870 and the Mossy 590!

Police or Marine Magnum is a good starting point! Both are easily checked over for final quality assurance and prepared for use! I generally upgraded a few parts and polish the chamber a bit, but it is dependable without it!

Both these guns will give a lifetime of use with a little maintenance and have easily available parts if anything ever goes sideways on it!

SD
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Old 01-05-2020, 01:12 PM
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2 .75 inch 00 buckshot = 10.28 lbs per 100 loaded shells. That = 5 twenty round magazines. This does not include the weight of the magazines themselves.

So......... 1 twenty round mag would hold about 2 lbs of weight via 00 buck, plus the weight of the magazine itself.

Note: I don't have any of these 20rd 12ga magazines to weigh, but would wager that they are fairly heavy as far as magazines go. They would have to be via sheer size as well as a mag spring stout enough to reliably feed 20 shells of 12 ga 00 buck from the bottom of the shotgun......not to mention reinforced areas critical for a magazine of this size designed to carry that much weight. ( Long term use seems questionable with these mags)

Especially if this 20rd shotgun magazine is a drum magazine.

My guess puts it at 3 lbs per loaded 12 ga shotgun 20rd mag ( 00 buck at 2.75 inches each) That = 15 lbs with a 5 mag loadout for a total of 100 shells. ( The same weight will get you 10 loaded M14 20rd mags via 7.62x51mm for a total of 200 rds.)

Have no idea if these mags would even allow 3 inch shells, and don't see that as feasible. If it were possible, the weight per loaded mag would be more than considerable.

That is alot to consider , and all to get away from loading individual shells into a fixed tube shotgun magazine. In the end, it does not solve any other disadvantages that a shotgun suffers from.

I will pass on it personally.

11B
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Old 02-21-2020, 02:03 PM
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Okay here is my opinion take it or leave it. I am 58 and have been shooting shotguns since I was 12 . Box magazine , a shotgun is pointed . Balance matters a properly fitted shotgun hits where you are looking if you have your form down. Box magazines and guns like the keltec and dp12 don't balance the same.
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Old 02-22-2020, 11:27 AM
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My opinion part 2 as I said above just my personal opinion. I had a shotgun built. I believe in multiple use tools so I had what I consider a utility gun as both a foraging/hunting gun and defensive gun built. Are autos faster ? A little but a pump is more reliable . My standard hunting load is a 20 gauge 7/8th oz load loaded in a 12 gauge hull . This will cover 85% of my hunting needs . Then I can go to full power 12 gauge when needed. My custom built gun is a 870 black zinc parkerized. Up grades all springs 18.5 inch barrel fixed modified choke Wilson 2 shot extension wolf follower and mag spring tritnium bead wilson big head safety and a full left handed trigger group in a right handed gun. I also have the magazine cap and spring to change to 4+1 when hunting
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Old 02-22-2020, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuteandfuzzybunnies View Post
You can feed a tube mag as you use up shots and keep it full. You canít with a box.
You never pulled a mag out that was not full, insert a full one and load the one just removed?

We did it during the black of night between fire fights. Even used stripper clips and dumped one extra ones in our pockets.

John Moses Browning said: In history they never made a better arm, only faster.
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Old 02-22-2020, 01:10 PM
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Reloading a box magazine is a 2 hand job you can shuck a shell or 2 in a tube with out taking the gun off your shoulder
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Old 02-23-2020, 01:27 AM
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When shooting practical/tactical matches with a shotgun the winners generally are the smoothest and fastest reloaders. A large magazine will certainly improve the reloading time if even needed. As a defensive tool I will stay with my basic tube fed pump gun. Since I use local competition more as trigger time for weapon handling skills, I use my defensive weapons for completion. As a defensive shotgun modification, pump gun magazines do not make sense to me.
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