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Old 08-03-2013, 07:06 PM
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manisonenmi manisonenmi is offline
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Though I'm no fan of Canada's gun laws, one advantage of them for us is that with only about six or seven percent of the population owning them overall (in my neighbourhood it's about two per every hundred residents) is that there won't be that many crazy city folk that will be able to threaten rural households if they head up that way, as they'll be essentially unarmed. Most of the gun owners will be fairly likeminded with the survivalist lot even if most of them aren't as thoroughly prepared, and it wouldn't be that difficult to work together with neighbours in rural areas, arming those who need it or setting up a mutual support system.

With several hundred thousand Michigan residents heading to the woods every autumn to hunt deer, that may be a different story, but even then I suspect that it will be a tiny minority of that group that would purposefully cause trouble and it might even be possible for the rest to police them.
The problem is that criminals always have access to firearms, somehow, regardless of any country's strict gun laws, funny how that works out can a farmer with a side by side shotgun defend against an enraged mob of 50-60 guys? I really don't know if it is good or bad that such a small % of law abiding canadian citizens is armed..Who knows? Hpefully we'll never have to find out
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Old 08-04-2013, 12:30 AM
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It's a little 'different' up here. Canada has only a few 'major' cities that one must be especially careful of.

We have only one tenth of the population of what you have in the States, remember, and although the 'bad guys' will have the guns, they're also depending on gas to get them there AND back. If you look at the stats, KNIVES are what you have to fear up here. Those, and baseball bats. Even the crooks tend to take to the melee weapons rather than guns/long arms.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-.../11146-eng.htm
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-.../11692-eng.htm

There's a lot of "NORTH" here in Canada, in all Provinces and Territories. There's a bit of a different culture here, too. Oh I'm not saying we don't have bad guys. That's folly and naive. I'm saying though that there is a definite vibe that we have that you good folk to the South do not have. You have your own vibe, your own identity that is unique to you.

Here in Ontario itself, there is far more land to grow food, and spread out, even if in less than ideal conditions than there are people to grow it. The only 'pinch' would be SW Ontario, which is bottle necked between the Great Lakes. Even there, I can only think of a few 'major' cities. Windsor, which is Detroit's other side, Chatham, London, Brantford, then Cambridge-Kitchener-Waterloo area, Hamilton, and then the rest of the GTA/Golden Horseshoe. (If you live in SW Ontario and feel slighted by me not mentioning you here; congratulations! Your chances of survival are many times even higher! ^_^)

Windsor's population - 300 000 ish. (town and country side)
Chatham - 100 000 ish
London - 370 000 ish
Brantford - 135 000 ish
Hamilton - 500 000 ish
Golden Horseshoe (right around the ridge of the Great Lakes) - about 9 million souls, however spread out over 12,185.99 sq mi

These are our largest cities here in SW Ontario. It's a two hour drive from Windsor to London, a three hour drive from London to Toronto. They're going to run out of gas, especially if they want to go back 'home'. Windsor being so close to Detroit is going to have issues, I think, if things become too hot.

I don't think Chatham-Kent, London-Woodstock-Ingersoll will have too much to worry about with hordes swarming. There's the Thames River that runs through those areas. In Brantford there's the Grand River. Both of them are polluted to the ears, sure, but the people in those two medium sized cities would know to boil the water first, before drinking at the very least. There's a lot of gardening going on in those two cities, too. Some of the older districts have livestock that is NOT permitted, like chickens and ducks. They're agrarian, within and without. There may be some unrest in the core, but the 'core area' in both Chatham and London are seriously only sixteen to eighteen city blocks, and that's being generous.

Many, many people in the corridor from Windsor to say, Brantford already prep, without them even knowing it. That is a tornado alley. They have known the touch of a snowflake, and it's the hardest hit area in CANADA for a storm alert. They have had boil water advisement and power outages this year already.
A can of Chef-Boy-R-Dee is in their cupboards, along with a package of stale Fig Newtons and a bottle or two of water. I'm not saying they're ready for Armageddon, but they know that there's weather events that happen and they have to be ready for them. Doesn't extend to their cars, as far as I can tell though.

I'm thinking of Woodstock right now. It looks like it's right out of the eighteen hundreds. I can't imagine the people there spilling out into the edges with shotguns or worse hunting for cans of soup or a silo of grain.

Woodstock's constitution also allows for livestock at home, and gardens in the front of their homes. STELLAR place to live, if one can find a job to settle into the first few years before the house is paid off. Again, these places are soft-ready to go for the most part. Sure, sheeple. Sure, Wal-Mart craziness and surges for bread, eggs, milk and salty snacks if there's a storm coming. But for the most part you have folk capable of handling themselves for a few weeks before starting to go even mildly crazy.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:24 AM
Def Con 3 Def Con 3 is offline
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If you are a sheeple who is fleeing your city in search for food, water, etc, you are most likely going to gravitate to the targets that are most accessible. Most, nearly all, homes won't be protected well.

In your case, I would invest in a good sized dog or two, post warning signs for the dogs on a good sized perimeter fence, perhaps some sharp barbed wire to go with it, and finally some natural plants/bushes that are known for having razor like needles/thorns/leaves/etc.

Most sheeple would find the difficulty not worth it and move on to the next property. For the few who remain determined to penetrate the defenses, click...click...BOOM!
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Old 08-04-2013, 08:21 AM
briar river briar river is offline
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Originally Posted by Def Con 3 View Post
If you are a sheeple who is fleeing your city in search for food, water, etc, you are most likely going to gravitate to the targets that are most accessible. Most, nearly all, homes won't be protected well.

In your case, I would invest in a good sized dog or two, post warning signs for the dogs on a good sized perimeter fence, perhaps some sharp barbed wire to go with it, and finally some natural plants/bushes that are known for having razor like needles/thorns/leaves/etc.

Most sheeple would find the difficulty not worth it and move on to the next property. For the few who remain determined to penetrate the defenses, click...click...BOOM!
That's what I always say. I don't need to be the most fortified, I just need to be more fortified than most of the others. Most people have those big, well mowed yards that say "come on in and sit a spell."

The whole roadside of my farm is planted with old fashion roses. They look pretty for those who like to judge other people's yards, give me rose petals and hips for my medicinals, and they have THORNS! They are not easy to get through, even with loppers, a machete, and/or a brush hog. I know this personally from when I have to prune them back.

For my orchard I planted raspberry canes all around it. I can harvest the berries for eating and selling, and the canes are not fun to walk through.
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Old 08-04-2013, 08:43 AM
Grumpus Monkus Grumpus Monkus is offline
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Originally Posted by .30-06 View Post
In an SHTF situation, many people say they would "head for the hills". So my question is. What does this mean for us who live in rural areas?
Means easy pickens'.

That was a joke ^.

I don't know how many will make it to "the hills", and here is why I say this....
Next time you are filling up at the pumps, look at the other pumps and see how much fuel people are putting in their vehicles. 10 - 20 DOLLARS (not yelling, just emphasizing) not gallons. 3.59 a gallon here, so $20 is roughly 5.5 gallons.

Throw in a traffic jam, road block, etc...... and they are empty and having to hump it to the hills. That in and of itself presents an entirely different set of problems for these people before they make it out to us who are in rural areas.

Just my .02 on this.
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Old 08-04-2013, 09:27 AM
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Yes, 'cause while all the city slickers and 'burbanites marched against Monsanto for having wheat in Oregon fields that cost the farmers of that state hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not millions), the farmers did a little more than that:

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/bre...nomic-sabotage

Yes, this is a biased article, I will freely admit that. The point is that lots of time city people complain, march and write to their congressman, while country folk will often take matters into their own hands, right or wrong though it may be. Revolutions do not always start with a bang under the bright lights of the cities. Sometimes they start quietly on dark country roads with a few good ol' boys with shotguns.

It could have been hippie city kids, like the ones that destroy ski lifts in CO.

Not saying it wasn't farmers, as that sort of thing has happened before:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:15 AM
ruggersevens ruggersevens is offline
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Imagine heading for the hills with thousands and thousands (millions?) of others. All those cute little campfires, all those raging forest fires.
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:20 AM
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Don't worry about me I have no intention of running to California when things go bad. I don't even go there now.
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:30 AM
Kansas Terri Kansas Terri is offline
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As much as I would love to be more rural, being SEMI rural has its advantages! I have neighbors, and none of us would welcome squatters. We live on 1 acre lots, and that means we are close enough to each other to back each other up.

The down side is that 1 acre will not raise enough grain to support us, unless I buy some extra rice. A couple of buckets full are living in my basement now, and more will be added as the budget allows. We *DO* have enough land to raise beans and vegetables, and once I buy more rice we would be much more secure. I already have seeds, a bearing garden, and quite a lot of tools.

Every area has its weaknesses. A very rural setting has less neighbor backup and less trading ability, but more resources for food and firewood. A very city environment has all sorts of neighbor support possible and streets can be blocked off and guarded, but folks had better have a good deal of food set by! Living where I do, on the edge of small city, I have a little bit of both.
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Kansas Terri View Post
As much as I would love to be more rural, being SEMI rural has its advantages! I have neighbors, and none of us would welcome squatters. We live on 1 acre lots, and that means we are close enough to each other to back each other up.

The down side is that 1 acre will not raise enough grain to support us, unless I buy some extra rice. A couple of buckets full are living in my basement now, and more will be added as the budget allows. We *DO* have enough land to raise beans and vegetables, and once I buy more rice we would be much more secure. I already have seeds, a bearing garden, and quite a lot of tools.

Every area has its weaknesses. A very rural setting has less neighbor backup and less trading ability, but more resources for food and firewood. A very city environment has all sorts of neighbor support possible and streets can be blocked off and guarded, but folks had better have a good deal of food set by! Living where I do, on the edge of small city, I have a little bit of both.
Lets not forget about water - But by the sounds of it i assume youve got something for that too
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:53 AM
Kansas Terri Kansas Terri is offline
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Lets not forget about water - But by the sounds of it i assume youve got something for that too
I do.

I have an old plastic stock watering tank that the kids used as a swimming pool, and it is about 12 feet across. It can be dragged underneath the downspout of the house.

That isn't enough as the water will not be all that clean, and our only water filter is a straw water filter. But, very few of us have everything we want, and the 15 gallons of water stored in the garage will at least get us past a boil order.
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:58 AM
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I do.

I have an old plastic stock watering tank that the kids used as a swimming pool, and it is about 12 feet across. It can be dragged underneath the downspout of the house.

That isn't enough as the water will not be all that clean, and our only water filter is a straw water filter. But, very few of us have everything we want, and the 15 gallons of water stored in the garage will at least get us past a boil order.
Eh, it might not be optimal, but not much would be if you needed to rely on something like that for water.
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Old 08-05-2013, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by briar river View Post
So, what are these people running to the hills for?

Are they like bandits going to shoot their way into getting food? For me there are plenty of other farms between me and the big cities that their numbers should be whittled down before they get to me. Plus there are several nice size rivers, including the Mississippi that would slow down anyone coming in this direction. There would easier places to hit. What's the old saying, "I don't have to run faster than the lion, I just have to run faster than the slowest person." I don't have to be the most fortified, I just need others to be less fortified than I am.

If they are just people or families looking to make a new start, I run a glamping center with little cabins scattered in the woods. These have fire places and/or wood burning kitchen ranges. They could be easily converted into year round residence. I could take in several of them as help for the farm. If I don't have machinery, I'll need more hands. This farm could support many more people.

I think much the same way on potential refugees. There can be the ones who are raiders, looting and taking as they go. I live far enough away from the big cities that many of these will be weeded out before they get to me. I also face the reality that some of them can/will make it.

There are others who may be just as desperate but are not looting or harming as they go. Just looking for a safe(r) place and a chance to be fed. I am a realist enough to know that I cannot help everyone but I would be more than willing to help those that I can. I know that I cannot accomplish all the things I would need to have done, in a world gone crazy, without the help of other people. I cannot do that even now in a somewhat benign world.

While I don't have the luxury of numerous cabins with stoves and such, I do have several buildings that are heated and could easily be used as housing and would have all the comforts that I am used to now. Also several other buildings that are just that, shells and no modern facilities, but that people that are in real need would think they found heaven.

Right now, even with weather losses plus deer depredations in the gardens, I likely (from the amount of produce I give away) grow several times more than I eat, at least during the growing season. I have the potential to do a lot more preserving than I do but don't have the time to do it all. My priorities have been on increasing the size and productivity of the gardens so I know I can produce food when I need it.

By extrapolation, I would say that right now, today I could produce enough food and housing for several large families. The flaw in that equation is that much would depend on the time of year. Fall would likely be the worst time because the growing season is past, and the cold winter is ahead and I don't have food stored for groups of people.

I also believe that in really desperate times I would not be able to continue to exist on my own little island of safety, all by myself. If a situation like that ever developed, I would welcome people who were prepared to assist in the running of the 'farm' with all the added skills and protection a group brings. My kids and grandkids would certainly at least be a part of this. I also am realist enough to know that any group also brings with it built in problems and somehow or another would be dealt with.

Oh, by the way, in your glamping center, do you glamp the good guys or the bad guys?
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