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Old 06-16-2019, 09:22 AM
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Default Massive Power Outage in S. America



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There are reports this morning of a power outage that's affecting nearly all of Argentina and Uruguay. The power is already restored in a few places so it doesn't look like a true SHTF situation. There's no explanation for the cause of the outage.
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Old 06-16-2019, 12:56 PM
WilliamAshley WilliamAshley is offline
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This is news.

Cascade failure by the sounds of it.

Argentina's energy minister says it was a interconnection system collapse that caused the error.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_interconnector

Root cause
transmission of electricity from the Yacycretá hydroelectric dam.
https://www.google.com/maps/search/Y...56.8766581,11z

Also a side story - local elections were due to be held in Argentina.
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Old 06-16-2019, 04:05 PM
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BTW, I've read a few things about cyber-attacks on power grids, including this yesterday, but I'm thinking I've never read anything about how long a blackout would last, or what any collateral effects would be. Does anybody know that, remember reading an estimate of that somewhere? Are we talking 20 minutes, a day, a few days before it can be repaired, if North Korea, Russia, etc., wants to knock out the grid somewhere in America?

Thanks.
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Old 06-16-2019, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim from 28DaysLater View Post
BTW, I've read a few things about cyber-attacks on power grids, including this yesterday, but I'm thinking I've never read anything about how long a blackout would last, or what any collateral effects would be. Does anybody know that, remember reading an estimate of that somewhere? Are we talking 20 minutes, a day, a few days before it can be repaired, if North Korea, Russia, etc., wants to knock out the grid somewhere in America?

Thanks.
Too many variables to say for sure.

There were a few blackouts in the NE U.S. in the 1960s and one in the early 2000s. All these had a relatively minor impact on the U.S. economy and the lights were back on within a few days.

Ukraine's power grid was hit by hackers a few years ago. The Ukrainians blamed the Russians but no one is sure who was behind the attacks. The attack looked more like a warning shot across the bow in that the attack was short-lived.

A Coronal Mass Ejection (CME) on the scale of the Carrington Event in 1859 has the potential to fry most of the North American power grid. Because some key electrical equipment is extremely expensive and difficult to move, many utilities have only a few backups to key components and would have to order replacements from overseas. It could take months to bring the grid back up. The good news is that some resupply of essentials could come from our allies.

An Electro Magnetic Pulse (EMP) caused by a nuke exploded in space over North America could take out the grid. The Pentagon considers this to be a serious threat but, because an EMP wouldn't discriminate between countries, it would take out satellites owned by most space capable countries which would put the aggressor at war with dozens of ****ed off nations. Thus it's probably less likely than many people think.
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Old 06-16-2019, 07:49 PM
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Any type of a cyber attack on the US power grid will cause a huge panic and it will be immediate.

Cel phone towers and some radio station run on back up systems....thus if the grid went down from an attack....not all communication would fail.....people will know that rather quickly.

At a bare minimum you should be prepped for 30 days (for you 28 days) ......I think the Government is asking that the population have a 7 day supply for emergencies (this has been upped from 3 days).

In a perfect world.....180 days......depending if you have the space to store your preps.

hope this helps
HK
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Old 06-16-2019, 08:31 PM
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The Ukrainian problem was fixed within a few hours. You'd tend to think that if the Ukrainians could fix it in a few, we here in America certainly could.

In that case, it hardly seems like we have to have apocalyptic concerns about it, if all we're talking about is a grid attack, without being used as a prelude to something else (like a missile attack on the power infrastructure). Just wonder if somehow there's more to it than that--- like a more serious way to do it. Maybe it could be that Russia intentionally stopped short of doing something more serious to Ukraine, that still would have been purely cyber.
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Old 06-16-2019, 08:36 PM
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This article will give you a different impression

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/a...od-stamp-riots
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Old 06-16-2019, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
A Coronal Mass Ejection (CME) on the scale of the Carrington Event in 1859 has the potential to fry most of the North American power grid. Because some key electrical equipment is extremely expensive and difficult to move, many utilities have only a few backups to key components and would have to order replacements from overseas. It could take months to bring the grid back up. The good news is that some resupply of essentials could come from our allies.
Nothing would isolate it to North America. The effect is global, with strength diminishing with distance from the polls. If the effect reached far enough south to cover the US, it would also mean all of Europe, Russia, much of Asia, South American, South Africa, Australia. In some ways, it would be much worse than an EMP targeted over a single continent.

Rather the months, it is estimated it would take two years to bring it back, at current production levels. Help from our allies is doubtful as they will have the exact same problems in their own countries.

Given that the resources to replace the destroyed infrastructure would themselves be destroyed I would not expect power to come back within a generation, if ever.
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Old 06-16-2019, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim from 28DaysLater View Post
BTW, I've read a few things about cyber-attacks on power grids, including this yesterday, but I'm thinking I've never read anything about how long a blackout would last, or what any collateral effects would be. Does anybody know that, remember reading an estimate of that somewhere? Are we talking 20 minutes, a day, a few days before it can be repaired, if North Korea, Russia, etc., wants to knock out the grid somewhere in America?

Thanks.
What you are asking about is called a "black startup". That meaning starting a power plant without external power or network. The US DOE about a year ago discussed the importance of having policies at the power plant on how to get them operational in cases of a cyber attack. At the time of their release, there was little concern from the power companies to have any need for black startups.
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Old 06-16-2019, 09:01 PM
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Given a long enough power outage.....I actually think the power would come back faster as the population diminished from starvation.

Here in Florida.....for example.....there are a ton of houses with grid tie solar systems......doesnt take too much of a genius to learn how to backfeed a small community grid for some power...you just gotta kill it at the main feed......getting 20 AMP's of 120V or 12V DC self generated is not a huge leap....this would allow for some refrigeration and batteries to be charged.

So the power might come back on a very small level faster than you might think.

HK
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Old 06-17-2019, 06:24 PM
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Conveniently it happened on election day.

What a coincidence......
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Old 06-17-2019, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Sharkbait View Post
Conveniently it happened on election day.

What a coincidence......
Must've been the Russians. We need to start a congressional investigation.
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Old 06-20-2019, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Im RIght View Post
What you are asking about is called a "black startup". That meaning starting a power plant without external power or network. The US DOE about a year ago discussed the importance of having policies at the power plant on how to get them operational in cases of a cyber attack. At the time of their release, there was little concern from the power companies to have any need for black startups.
According to an engineer in our local power co-op, only 1 in 7 fossil fuel plants in the USA are capable of a black start.
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Old 06-21-2019, 07:33 PM
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Funny how little I have heard about this on msm.
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Old 06-21-2019, 09:41 PM
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Reminded me to DuckDuck it. 17 June - BBC says power is "largely restored".

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-48652686
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Old 06-26-2019, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henrykjr View Post
Given a long enough power outage.....I actually think the power would come back faster as the population diminished from starvation.

Here in Florida.....for example.....there are a ton of houses with grid tie solar systems......doesnt take too much of a genius to learn how to backfeed a small community grid for some power...you just gotta kill it at the main feed......getting 20 AMP's of 120V or 12V DC self generated is not a huge leap....this would allow for some refrigeration and batteries to be charged.

So the power might come back on a very small level faster than you might think.

HK
You do realize that a huge number/majority of the silly little residential solar systems being installed with net metering require an active energized utility supply in order to operate? IE are not "off grid" capable or backup supply.
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Old 06-27-2019, 07:02 PM
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Here's a Lloyds insurance report on the impact of a Carrington level event on the N.A. power grid:
https://www.lloyds.com/news-and-risk...nt/solar-storm

Based on historical records of aurora sightings at low latitudes they put the mid-point of Carrington CME events at 150 years with a range of 100-250 years.
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Old 06-27-2019, 08:01 PM
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Report is several years old, but worth consideration nonetheless.
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Old 06-28-2019, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
You do realize that a huge number/majority of the silly little residential solar systems being installed with net metering require an active energized utility supply in order to operate? IE are not "off grid" capable or backup supply.

Yes I do realize that "grid tie" does require the electrical infrastructure.

Several years ago Tesla developed a battery called a Powerwall. The concept was a giant battery bank that would/could create its own "Micro-grid". Just about made the electrical utilities crap their pants.

Without a lot of effort.......it is possible to sort of reverse engineer a battery bank system. Panels charge the battery bank instead of putting it on the grid per say. Then it's inverted to 120V......a very small and somewhat stable electical supply.....we're talking maybe 5 amps per house across 8 houses. Not ideal but poor third world countries run their entire house on a single outlet of less than 10 amps. I have personally seen it

It's an interesting prepping exercise to so how many things you can shut off at the breaker box and still be comfortable. As an example I have LED night lights. They draw next to nothing.....I'm talking 16 of these things draw less than an 1/8 of an amp. Sufficient light to read by and any room in a house.

Additionally a mini-fridge draws less than 3 amps. Low wattage electronics like tablets, smart phones , radio's and even a mini fan will all run/charge on less than two amps.

So once you factor out the water heater, air conditioner, oven, microwave, washer dryer, kitchen appliances, bathroom appliances and a few other things......you are running on less than 20 amps. My hurricane setup for the house......designed to run on 8 Amps.

HK
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Old 06-28-2019, 09:08 PM
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All of that has been in existence for decades. The only fly in the ointment is the electronics which change a standalone system into a grid-tie system, and the fact that you cannot create a local grid using the power company's wiring unless you isolate it from the outside world by disconnecting your mini-grid at the local substation. That might be possible in a TEOTWAWKI situation, but anything less and the power company will find a way to send you to jail.

Tesla's Power Wall is just a gigantic version of the UPS battery-backups that have protected computers since the '70s. It draws power from the grid and/or from a solar array to charge. It does not feed power back to the grid at all. As such the power companies would be completely neutral about it. I'd love to have one, but not at his price!

Certainly re-engineering your living space to eliminate power-hungry apps like AC will help you. I personally have to have refrigeration for my insulin, and power for my well, so I'll never be a true "third-worlder". I'll depend on gasoline generators until my fuel runs out. (Living on what was once a farm as I do, there's a 500 gallon tank here....)
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