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Old 10-24-2018, 02:34 PM
esheldon esheldon is offline
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PalmettoTree, sorry for making this thread prior to you, but I couldn't help providing my input concerning the back and forth between you and Atticus reference Peter, and I didn't want (like you stated) to derail his thread.

Please feel free to post what it is you would like to share concerning him.

Is Peter really THE "rock"?

[SOURCE: The Refiner's Fire (with permission)]
"With all the difference Bible translations and their respective mistranslations, it's no wonder there are some confusing doctrines.

Take, for instance, the Catholic insistence that "Peter is the rock" or "cornerstone" of their church. They get that idea from mistranslations in the KJV and later versions:

Matthew 16: 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (King James Version)

Matthew 16: 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. (New International Version)

Now please note what the Aramaic English New Testament says:

Matthew 16: 18 I say also to you that you are Keefa, and on this Keefa I will build my assembly, and the gates of Sheol will not subdue it.

The Aramaic English New Testament (link) was translated directly from Aramaic into English from a copy of the oldest New Testament ever discovered, the Khabouris Codex, which some scholars date all the way back to 120 A.D. - and a footnote concerning Matthew 16:18 says:

This is a wordplay between Keefa the man and what his nickname means. Y'shua (Jesus) uses Keefa's name to reveal the significance of Keefa's conclusion. Neither flesh nor blood (an individual) can reveal the “nature” of Mashiyach (Messiah), except YHWH Himself by the Ruach haKodesh (the Holy Sppirit)! Using the literal meaning of Keefa's name (rock), Y'shua brings together the understanding of the Tsur (Rock) of D'varim/Deut 32:18, 30, 31; Psalm 18:46; Psalm 61 and 62; Isaiah 8:14; 17:10; 51:1-8. When Shimon Keefa says, “You are the Mashiyach, the Son of the Living Elohim” he confesses faith in Mashiyach, not the person only, but the Spirit of Mashiyach in Y'shua. Y'shua's reply provides Keefa the same reference that David and the Prophets had regarding YHWH's Salvation, the Rock. However, this verse was twisted by Catholicism to first give Peter “authority,” then usurp Peter's “authority” for its leader. Ya'akov (James) was the first Rosh Beit Din of the Netzari, not Peter. See also 1 Corinthians 10:4.

It is important to understand that Keefa's name was both a compliment and an insult. As Lamsa pointed out, to call someone "rock-headed" in Israel was normally a huge insult and Y'shua was being tongue-in-cheek when He made a joke at Peter's expense regarding his stubborness and what we would call today "being dense/slow." But Y'shua in that same moment also turned it into a compliment, calling to the term the other sense of "rock" - that being stability and consistent purpose.

The problem was not that Keefa had the right to lead. The problem was that he established the Aramaic assemblies 20+ years before Rome and that he had put Ya'akov in charge of the Jerusalem assembly. He did this probably because Ya'akov had a better gift for day-to-day management of both Jews and Gentiles. Keefa also preferred his field work in Babylon and Syria to staying in one place and running things that way. Keefa; however, clearly established the assemblies at Antioch and Babylon first. He was never in Rome that we directly know of, except when he was captured and executed (probably), but even here there is uncertainty. One interesting tradition has him buried in pieces under the stairs by the Romans because they were afraid he would resurrect if they kept the body intact...."
Let's look at some other parts of scriptures concerning this.

Attitcus brought up Isaiah 22:22...and tied it to Peter. Who does it really refer to?

John 10:38. If, however, I do them even if you do not believe me, you believe the works that you may know and believe that my Father is in me147 and I am in my Father.”
147 In Isaiah 22:20-25 a priestly father is named Hilkiah (my portion is YHWH) and his son is Eliakim (Elohim raises) which foreshadows Mashiyach whose “portion” is YHWH, and who is raised up by Elohim. Mashiyach is the first begotten of YHWH who suffers, then is raised up and then is given governance over all nations, kindreds, tongues and peoples as foreshadowed in verses 21-22: “And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.”
1 Corinthians 10:4 And they all drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that attended them, and that rock was the Mashiyach (Messiah).

1 Peter 1:1. SHIMON PETER,1 a servant and Shaliach (emissary) of Y’shua the Mashiyach, to those who have obtained equally precious faith with us through the righteousness of Our Master and Redeemer, Y’shua the Mashiyach;
1 Intriguing that this Second Letter, which is at times disputed, has the proper full name of “Shimon Peter” whereas the previous letter simply has “Peter”. It is worth noting that the first name is not the Greek adaptation of “Simon” but in Aramaic is clearly “Shimon”. We should also bear in mind that Keefa is a nickname, not his real name; but he is recorded on occasion as Keefa because Y’shua gave him that title, a double meaning of “steady as a rock” and perhaps also suggesting “thick-headed as a rock”.
Ultimately, it is God who is the ROCK and Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone:

Deuteronomy 32:4 “He is the Rock, His work is perfect: for all His ways are judgment: an Elohim of truth and without iniquity, just and right is He.”

Psalms 92 (ends with): "proclaiming that Adonai is upright, my Rock, in whom there is no wrong."
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Old 10-24-2018, 05:43 PM
PalmettoTree PalmettoTree is offline
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I am under the weather and could not have done it better anyway. Thanks
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Old 10-24-2018, 05:54 PM
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Take, for instance, the Catholic insistence that "Peter is the rock" or "cornerstone" of their church. They get that idea from mistranslations in the KJV and later versions
I'm pretty sure the Catholic Church didn't take any of their core ideas from the King James Version of the Bible.

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Old 10-24-2018, 08:28 PM
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Take, for instance, the Catholic insistence that "Peter is the … cornerstone" of their church. They get that idea from mistranslations in the KJV and later versions
From where do you get that idea? Note how Ephesians 2:20 reads in several Catholic Bibles:
Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone (Douay Rheims)

built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone. (NABRE)

built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone (RSV-CE)
Also, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Often, too, the Church is called the building of God. The Lord compared himself to the stone which the builders rejected, but which was made into the corner-stone. On this foundation the Church is built by the apostles and from it the Church receives solidity and unity. This edifice has many names to describe it: the house of God in which his family dwells; the household of God in the Spirit; the dwelling-place of God among men; and, especially, the holy temple. This temple, symbolized in places of worship built out of stone, is praised by the Fathers and, not without reason, is compared in the liturgy to the Holy City, the New Jerusalem. As living stones we here on earth are built into it. It is this holy city that is seen by John as it comes down out of heaven from God when the world is made anew, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband.
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Old 10-24-2018, 08:54 PM
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I'm pretty sure the Catholic Church didn't take any of their core ideas from the King James Version of the Bible.

That would be weird, wouldn't it?
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Old 10-24-2018, 09:49 PM
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The Aramaic English New Testament (link) was translated directly from Aramaic into English from a copy of the oldest New Testament ever discovered, the Khabouris Codex, which some scholars date all the way back to 120 A.D.
Are you sure about the date of 120 A.D. and being the oldest copy of the New Testament ever discovered?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaboris_Codex
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- and a footnote concerning Matthew 16:18 says:

This is a wordplay between Keefa the man and what his nickname means. Y'shua (Jesus) uses Keefa's name to reveal the significance of Keefa's conclusion. Neither flesh nor blood (an individual) can reveal the “nature” of Mashiyach (Messiah), except YHWH Himself by the Ruach haKodesh (the Holy Sppirit)! Using the literal meaning of Keefa's name (rock), Y'shua brings together the understanding of the Tsur (Rock) of D'varim/Deut 32:18, 30, 31; Psalm 18:46; Psalm 61 and 62; Isaiah 8:14; 17:10; 51:1-8. When Shimon Keefa says, “You are the Mashiyach, the Son of the Living Elohim” he confesses faith in Mashiyach, not the person only, but the Spirit of Mashiyach in Y'shua. Y'shua's reply provides Keefa the same reference that David and the Prophets had regarding YHWH's Salvation, the Rock. However, this verse was twisted by Catholicism to first give Peter “authority,” then usurp Peter's “authority” for its leader. Ya'akov (James) was the first Rosh Beit Din of the Netzari, not Peter. See also 1 Corinthians 10:4.
How old is the footnote and what is its underlying authority?
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Old 10-24-2018, 09:51 PM
PalmettoTree PalmettoTree is offline
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It should be noted that the first English Bible translations were made from Latin. Jerome was committed to making his Latin translations conform to the Greek text available to him. Still early English translations were translations from translations.

The Gutenberg Bible of 1456 was published in Latin. The Vulgate and Gutenberg Bibles are most famous but there is also the Lindisfarne Gospels. It is the earliest, based on my research, interlinear Bible with an Anglo-Saxon translation word-for-word under each line of Latin. It is the oldest English translation of the Four Gospels. That is not to say there were not earlier partial English translations from Latin. Caedmon a laborer wrote an arrangement of Bible stories in verse form. These ranged from Creation to Christ. These were not actual translations but the first know attempt to express the Bible in English. Wycliff also translated scripture from Latin.

There is a lot more history but the point is today we have more very early Greek manuscripts available for translation then Jerome had to work from. Additionally as important as the earliest English translations were to the spread of Christianity and God’s Son’s Sacrifice for our Salvation they were translations from Latin not the original Greek.

The first direct Greek to English translation was made by William Tyndale. But it was Erasmus of Rotterdam that was the to value the Greek over the Latin. He printed the first Greek, Latin parallel Bible with the Latin translation independent of Jerome’s Vulgate.

We must remember without reliable Greek manuscripts we cannot have a reliable English Bible. We should also remember the English language changes over time. I doubt anyone reading this could read and understand scripture written on Old English. That said, the Greek manuscripts from which we get our English translations are fixed in the time they were written.

Scholars today have many more Greek manuscripts to compare. A great deal of cooperative effort, including the Vatican, has gone into using these many manuscripts attempting to achieve the most accurate Greek composite manuscript possible.
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Old 10-24-2018, 10:06 PM
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The problem was not that Keefa had the right to lead. The problem was that he established the Aramaic assemblies 20+ years before Rome and that he had put Ya'akov in charge of the Jerusalem assembly.
How is this consideration a problem?

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He did this probably because Ya'akov had a better gift for day-to-day management of both Jews and Gentiles. Keefa also preferred his field work in Babylon and Syria to staying in one place and running things that way.
On what is this supposition based?

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Originally Posted by esheldon View Post
Keefa; however, clearly established the assemblies at Antioch and Babylon first.
How have these considerations been established?

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Originally Posted by esheldon View Post
He was never in Rome that we directly know of, except when he was captured and executed (probably), but even here there is uncertainty.
Why the uncertainty?

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One interesting tradition has him buried in pieces under the stairs by the Romans because they were afraid he would resurrect if they kept the body intact...."
Where may the source of this "interesting tradition" be found?
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Old 10-24-2018, 10:22 PM
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I'm pretty sure the Catholic Church didn't take any of their core ideas from the King James Version of the Bible.

That's right I forgot...they have their own version
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Old 10-24-2018, 10:25 PM
esheldon esheldon is offline
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From where do you get that idea? Note how Ephesians 2:20 reads in several Catholic Bibles:
Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone (Douay Rheims)

built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone. (NABRE)

built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone (RSV-CE)
Also, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Often, too, the Church is called the building of God. The Lord compared himself to the stone which the builders rejected, but which was made into the corner-stone. On this foundation the Church is built by the apostles and from it the Church receives solidity and unity. This edifice has many names to describe it: the house of God in which his family dwells; the household of God in the Spirit; the dwelling-place of God among men; and, especially, the holy temple. This temple, symbolized in places of worship built out of stone, is praised by the Fathers and, not without reason, is compared in the liturgy to the Holy City, the New Jerusalem. As living stones we here on earth are built into it. It is this holy city that is seen by John as it comes down out of heaven from God when the world is made anew, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband.
Trog...if you did some comprehensive reading I didn't come up with that idea.
Read it again, and ask the source.

Not only that...they insist Peter is the "rock"...that would be the cornerstone as well. God and Jesus are ONE, Rock and cornerstone.
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Old 10-24-2018, 10:27 PM
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Are you sure about the date of 120 A.D. and being the oldest copy of the New Testament ever discovered?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaboris_Codex
If wiki is the source you are relying on, then there is no debating this with you.

Quote:
How old is the footnote and what is its underlying authority?
What does it matter, you just used wiki as yours

But if you're really interested, read here:

Some facts about the Khabouris Codex

https://therefinersfire.org/khabouris_codex.htm

And here:

Aramaic New Testament Time Bomb

https://www.aent.org/aramaic-new-testament-time-bomb/
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Old 10-24-2018, 10:28 PM
esheldon esheldon is offline
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How is this consideration a problem?



On what is this supposition based?



How have these considerations been established?



Why the uncertainty?



Where may the source of this "interesting tradition" be found?
Bro, as noted from your other posts (especially in the catholic and orthodox threads) you just ask questions to hear yourself ask questions.
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Old 10-24-2018, 10:34 PM
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If wiki is the source you are relying on, then there is no debating this with you.



What does it matter, you just used wiki as yours
If wiki is wrong, point me in the right direction as I had never heard of that particular text and just did a quick search to get a general feel for the subject matter.
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Old 10-24-2018, 10:40 PM
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Trog...if you did some comprehensive reading I didn't come up with that idea.
Read it again, and ask the source.
It is the source that you are using to go after my religious faith, but you won't own what you cite???!

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Not only that...they insist Peter is the "rock"...that would be the cornerstone as well. God and Jesus are ONE, Rock and cornerstone.
Where in the Bible does it state that all metaphorical use of the word "rock" is to be applied only to Christ? Where does the Bible state that "rock" necessarily equals "cornerstone"?
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Old 10-24-2018, 10:45 PM
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Bro, as noted from your other posts (especially in the catholic and orthodox threads) you just ask questions to hear yourself ask questions.
So, would you have me not question your assertions regarding my religious faith and just suck it up?
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Old 10-25-2018, 07:40 AM
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That's right I forgot...they have their own version
Yep... and their “version” predates King James’ by about 1,200 years.
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Old 10-25-2018, 09:13 AM
esheldon esheldon is offline
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If wiki is the source you are relying on, then there is no debating this with you.

What does it matter, you just used wiki as yours

But if you're really interested, read here:

Some facts about the Khabouris Codex

https://therefinersfire.org/khabouris_codex.htm

And here:

Aramaic New Testament Time Bomb

https://www.aent.org/aramaic-new-testament-time-bomb/
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If wiki is wrong, point me in the right direction as I had never heard of that particular text and just did a quick search to get a general feel for the subject matter.
Brother Trogshak, I pointed you in a direction and when you responded you left out the two links for which I pointed you
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Old 10-25-2018, 09:50 AM
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Brother Trogshak, I pointed you in a direction and when you responded you left out the two links for which I pointed you
Be honest and admit that those links were an added edit to your original post. By the time I noticed those links I had already responded to your three posts, and my interest in engaging you had waned. I will step back, knock the dust from my feet, and allow you to revel in your Catholic-bash thread unopposed.
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Old 10-25-2018, 09:53 AM
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It is the source that you are using to go after my religious faith, but you won't own what you cite???!
If I gave you the source from which I got the idea, then why ask the question "From where do you get that idea?"

Quote:
Where in the Bible does it state that all metaphorical use of the word "rock" is to be applied only to Christ?
So what are you saying by asking that question?

If you are going to "define" something within the NT you must first look to the OT for "how to" define it.

The metaphorical rock IS God and His Right Arm (the Messiah).
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.

Deuteronomy 32:15 Jeshurun grew fat and kicked; filled with food, they became heavy and sleek. They abandoned the God who made them and rejected the Rock their Savior.

Deuteronomy 32:18 You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.

Deuteronomy 32:31 For their rock is not like our Rock, as even our enemies concede.

Psalm 18:1-3 I love you, Lord; you are my strength. The Lord is my rock, my fortress, and my savior; my God is my rock, in whom I find protection. He is my shield, the power that saves me, and my place of safety. I called on the Lord, who is worthy of praise, and he saved me from my enemies.

Psalm 18:31 For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?

Psalm 18:46 The LORD lives! Praise to my Rock! May the God of my salvation be exalted!

Psalm 19:14 May these words of my mouth and this meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.

Psalm 28:1-2 To you, LORD, I call; you are my Rock, do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who go down to the pit. Hear my cry for mercy as I call to you for help, as I lift up my hands toward your Most Holy Place.

Psalm 31:2 Turn your ear to me, come quickly to my rescue; be my rock of refuge, a strong fortress to save me.

Psalm 31:3-4 Yes, you are my Rock and my protection. For the good of your name, lead me and guide me. Save me from the traps my enemy has set. You are my place of safety.

Psalm 62:7-8 My honor and salvation come from God. He is my mighty rock and my protection. People, trust God all the time. Tell him all your problems, because God is our protection.

Psalm 71:3 Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress.

Psalm 89:26 He will call out to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.’

Psalm 144:1-3 Of David. Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle. He is my loving God and my fortress, my stronghold and my deliverer, my shield, in whom I take refuge, who subdues peoples under me. LORD, what are human beings that you care for them, mere mortals that you think of them?

1 Samuel 2:2 There is no holy God like the Lord. There is no God but you. There is no Rock like our God.

2 Samuel 22:2 He said: “The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior– from violent people you save me.

2 Samuel 22:47 “The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be my God, the Rock, my Savior!

NT witnesses:

Romans 9:32 Why not? Because they were trying to get right with God by keeping the law instead of by trusting in him. They stumbled over the great rock in their path.

1 Peter 2:8 And, “He is the stone that makes people stumble, the rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they do not obey God’s word, and so they meet the fate that was planned for them.
Quote:
Where does the Bible state that "rock" necessarily equals "cornerstone"?
Why would it not? Refer to the two NT witnesses above.

Y'shua (Jesus) is not only the Cornerstone, He is also the Rock.
Isaiah 28:

16 therefore here is what Adonai Elohim says:
“Look, I am laying in Tziyon
a tested stone, a costly cornerstone,
a firm foundation-stone;
he who trusts will not rush here and there.
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Old 10-25-2018, 10:05 AM
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Be honest and admit that those links were an added edit to your original post. By the time I noticed those links I had already responded to your three posts, and my interest in engaging you had waned. I will step back, knock the dust from my feet, and allow you to revel in your Catholic-bash thread unopposed.
Hey, that is always a possibility. I tend to re-read what I write in order to ensure I convey what I want. If I added them as an edit, it would have been right after the original post; however, you must have knee-jerk answered my posts because I don't remember editing that post.

Having said that, this is not a catholic bashing thread.

It is about whether or not Peter is the Rock.
I do not believe he is. I believe God and Messiah are.

The fact that the "Peter is the rock" thing happens to have its origins in Catholicism doesn't mean that I am bashing them just because I don't agree with them.

I still love Catholics whether I agree with them or not; heck, I was raised RCC, baptized in a Cilician seminary when my father was stationed in Italy, I went to an Italian-American school where I attended catechism after school everyday, I went through confirmation, etc, etc, etc.

Now...would you like to (please) provide your position on why you feel Peter is the rock?

Last edited by esheldon; 10-25-2018 at 10:08 AM.. Reason: So Trogshak knows when I made an edit. I added the last sentence a few minutes after I posted.
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