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Old 02-24-2020, 10:31 PM
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RichardinColorado RichardinColorado is offline
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There is sure a lot of language in the NT condemning false teachers and false doctrine! But I guess none of that matters as long as you have a warm and fuzzy feeling about Jesus.
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Old 02-25-2020, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by RichardinColorado View Post
There is sure a lot of language in the NT condemning false teachers and false doctrine! But I guess none of that matters as long as you have a warm and fuzzy feeling about Jesus.
Friend, you got it backwards. The false teachers and false doctrine is that anything matters other than a warm and fuzzy feeling about Jesus - to the point one is motivated to humbly submit to God's will.

Seriously, your contempt for having a relationship with the living God as a primary consideration is noted.

To categorize the NT language about false teachers and false doctrine, it was largely a call to return to Judaism, a return to ritual, to authority of men, pushing relationship into secondary status.

I recall years ago attending sermons by a missionary. He solicited many answers to questions over weeks and months. Some answers were good. Many were not. Perhaps the poor answers were simply not expressed well. He said not to worry if you do not have all your doctrine exactly right. The main thing is to do what you can to make the world a better place through loving action and pray for more guidance. More than that is academic.

Jesus, the person, is the way, not church doctrines, organized religion or collectives asserting authority, speaking as 'the word of God' or calling it Jesus doctrines. In my pocket planner, I put this: His law is love. His Gospel is peace. Too simple to confuse. I noticed you are not answering my questions; what does Titus 3:9 mean to you?


Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
2 Corinthians 3:17
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Old 02-25-2020, 10:22 AM
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Friend, you got it backwards. The false teachers and false doctrine is that anything matters other than a warm and fuzzy feeling about Jesus - to the point one is motivated to humbly submit to God's will.

Seriously, your contempt for having a relationship with the living God as a primary consideration is noted.

To categorize the NT language about false teachers and false doctrine, it was largely a call to return to Judaism, a return to ritual, to authority of men, pushing relationship into secondary status.

I recall years ago attending sermons by a missionary. He solicited many answers to questions over weeks and months. Some answers were good. Many were not. Perhaps the poor answers were simply not expressed well. He said not to worry if you do not have all your doctrine exactly right. The main thing is to do what you can to make the world a better place through loving action and pray for more guidance. More than that is academic.

Jesus, the person, is the way, not church doctrines, organized religion or collectives asserting authority, speaking as 'the word of God' or calling it Jesus doctrines. In my pocket planner, I put this: His law is love. His Gospel is peace. Too simple to confuse. I noticed you are not answering my questions; what does Titus 3:9 mean to you?


Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
2 Corinthians 3:17
Friend, I do not have it backwards:

First, everyone has a relationship with Christ. It's either a good one or a bad one. Satan himself has a relationship with Christ and even confesses exactly who Christ is, the Holy One of God. In that respect the evil one is way ahead of most Americans. So what makes the difference in the relationship? Understanding Scriptures teachings about who Christ is and how He works.

Islam is the religion of submission. To submit is to follow the Law. To understand the Gospel (which is a doctrine) is to understand that we are always flawed in our keeping of the Law and in need of the mercy of God in Christ. All of that is doctrine. You simply cannot know who Christ is and what He has come to accomplish unless you understand true doctrine as it is revealed to man in God's Word. And BTW, even after you become a Baptized Christian and confess the faith He has given you, you will still fail to submit to the Law and will until you draw your last breath. Always, always, always, we stand in need of Christ's mercy and His payment for our sins. All of that is to understand the teaching of the Scriptures.

The divisions caused by the introduction of false teachings are historical fact:

FALSE DOCTRINES THROUGH HISTORY
A Very Brief Description of Historical Heresies in the Church

__________________________________________________ ___________________________

FALSE DOCTRINES OF THE EARLY CHURCH
* = Christological Heresies


*ADOPTIONISM: (190 A.D.)

An outgrowth of Arianism which held the view that Christ, according to His humanity is the Son of God by adoption only. Most frequently this heresy holds that Jesus was a mere man who became occupied by the divine Logos (Word) at the time of either His conception or His baptism and that the logos also departs Jesus prior to death so that only the man Jesus dies. Major proponents: Theodotus the Fuller (AD 190), Paul of Samosata (AD 260) and Elipando bishop of Urgel (AD 785).

*APOLLINARIANISM: (370 A.D.)


In seeking to refute Arianism Apollinarianism held that Christ had no soul, but rather His soul was replaced by the divine Logos (Word). Apollinarianism was condemned in AD 381, at the Council of Nicea as belonging to Docetism. Major proponent: Apollinaris of Laodicea.

*ARIANISM: (336 A.D.)

This is the “granddaddy” of the early heresies, which developed from Gnostic thought. Arius (d. AD 336), a priest in a suburb of Alexandria, Egypt, sought to combine the adoptionism of Paul of Samosata with the Neoplatonic idea of divine transcendence and utter inaccessibility of God. God was described as an abstract monad, alone unbegotten, without equal, unchangeable, ineffable. Since God could not create the world directly because of His very nature, He created out of nothing, “before all times and eons,” an intermediate being, exalted above all other creatures, through whom He created the world. This intermediary being is the Logos, called “Son,” who is not true God and not eternal. Some Arians went so far as to teach that the Logos was dissimilar from the Father in essence. In time the Logos being took on human flesh, not inherently sinless, but capable of moral progress, choosing the good and continuing therein. Condemned by the Council of Nicea (AD 381). Major Proponents: Arius (d. AD 336) and the Cappadocian Theologians.

ASCETICISM: (In every form of ancient religion, the opposite of which is hedonism)

Practiced by Essenes, Pythagoreans, Therapeutae, and other religious and philosophic cults in Old Testament times; found in varying degrees in almost all religions. Outward asceticism was seldom practiced in the Old Testament while the New Testament opposed it as workrighteousness. While Christianity does teach a self-denial, it does not teach that behavior and conformity to certain man-made rules enhances one’s standing with God. Some Gnostics and the Manichaeans practiced ascetic disciplines to free the soul from its entanglement in matter, which they regarded as evil. Christian asceticism finally led to monasticism in the primitive and medieval Church. Today, asceticism is still found in monastic communities and in the teaching of some fundamentalistic bodies in which conformity to man-made rules becomes the measure of a person’s faith. The notion that faith can be merited through obedience to the moral law is condemned as an ascetic concept.

DONATISM: (315 A.D.)

Donatism taught that persecution was a necessary mark of the Church. This heresy began in Northern Africa, and held that sacraments administered by one deserving excommunication were invalid, and that the Church which failed to excommunicate such persons, had ceased to be the true Church, and that it’s Baptism was invalid, and they themselves alone were the true Church. This heresy encouraged voluntary martyrdom. Condemned by the synod of Arles (AD 315) and Augustine of Hippo (AD 393-412).

*EBIONISM: (190-220 A.D.)

This was an extreme ascetic heresy that denied the divinity of Christ (while recognizing Him as the Messiah), the virgin birth, the writings of Paul, and in general tried to harmonize the teachings of the Torah with the tenets of various severe ascetic groups. They were rightly known as Judiazers.

*EUTYCHIANISM: (400 A.D.)


A fifth century heresy taking its name from Eutyches, who asserted that there were two natures in Christ before, but only one nature after, the incarnation. In opposition to Nestorianism, Eutyches taught that the human nature in Christ was absorbed, and swallowed up, by the divine nature; thus his doctrine was an expression of Monophysitism. Major Proponent: Eutyches (AD 378-454), Archimandrite of the Eastern Church in Constantinople who was condemned and deposed at the Council of Constanople (AD 381).

*FILIOQUE CONTROVERSY: (589 A.D.)

This heresy caused a major dispute in the Church and became a chief point of difference between the Eastern and Western Church. The Nicene Creed had as the Third Article: “And in the Holy Spirit”; to this the Constantinopolitan Creed added: “The Lord and Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father.” The belief that the Spirit also proceeds from the Son (e.g., Ambrose), was taught by Augustine of Hippo, and probably first appeared in creeds in Spain in the 5th century. The term filioque was adopted at Toledo (AD 589), probably against Arianism. Thereafter it was generally accepted in the Western Church and was adopted at Rome soon after AD 1000. The Eastern Church, which made the Father alone the fountainhead of deity, rejected the filioque, but generally found no difficulty in saying that the Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son.

*GNOSTICISM: (100-300 A.D.)

A syncretistic movement with roots in pre-Christian times which came to flower in the second and third centuries AD, and continued to the seventh century in its influence and is even somewhat reflected in today’s “New Age” thought. The following reflects elements of Gnosticism in Christian times: God is pure abstraction, a fathomless abyss. From Him emanate divine potencies (aeons) which in their totality constitute the pleroma (fullness, ideal world of light opposed to kenoma, or emptiness of matter). Sophia (wisdom) disturbed the harmony of the pleroma and fell into the formless chaos beyond (hysterema). Through matter sophia gave birth to a demiurge (identified with the Old Testament Jehovah). Redemption takes place through the restoration of the harmony of the pleroma and rescue of the seeds of divine light scattered in darkness. This is done by the most perfect aeon, who entered Jesus at Baptism and left Him before Calvary. Christ accomplishes His work by teaching knowledge (gnosis), which is received only by a select few (pneumatikoi or spirituals). The next class of men (psychikoi, or psychics) must be content with faith; the lowest (hylics, or material) are preoccupied with worldly cares. The ethical system tried to overcome flesh (matter) and developed into both strict asceticism and extreme libertinism. Major proponents: Cerinthus (AD 100), Saturninus (AD 2nd century), Elkesaites, Basilides (AD 2nd century), Carpocrates (AD 2nd century), Valentinus (2nd century), Bardesanes (AD 154-222), and Marcion (AD 100-160). Condemned by Irnaeus, Tertullian, and Hippolytus. Ultimately condemned by the rejections of Arianism at the Council of Nicea in AD 381.

*ICONOCLASTIC CONTROVERSY: (726-842 A.D.)


This controversy (AD 726-842), occurred between Eastern Orthodox churches concerning the role of icons in the cultic life of the church. Iconoclasts did not support the use of icons. The first phase began when Eastern emperor Leo III (AD 680-741) began to remove an obstacle to conversion of Muslim and Jews, by proscribing the use of icons. The Seventh Ecumenical Council, (Nicea II, AD 787) reestablished the veneration of images. During this phase iconodules (those who supported the use of icons), represented mainly by monks, depended on John of Damascus for theological support. The second phase began around AD 841 under Leo V. The chief theological questions in this controversy were: 1.) What is an image, and were iconodules guilty of idolatry? 2.) Did veneration of images violate Chalcedonian formulations on the nature and person of Christ? 3.) Were arguments from tradition of either iconoclast or iconodule authentic? The ultimate questions for the iconodules were historical and theological. They concluded that though there may be no absolute identity between image and person represented, there is relative identity. Reverence offered to the icon passes to the prototype. To deny that Christ can be portrayed in an icon is to deny that Christ was man, and a part of history. The incarnation lends justification to legitimate use of the icon.

*MONARCHIANISM: (100-170 A.D.)

Monarchianism developed during the second and third centuries which stressed that God is a single being, thereby trying to preserve monotheism and unity (monarchy) of the Godhead. Two divergent view arose:

Dynamic Monarchianism: Christ is a mere man (though conceived by the Holy Spirit and born in a wonderful way of the virgin Mary) whom God endowed with His power. (Led to Adoptionism.) Major proponents: Alogi (AD 170), Theodotians, Artemonites, and Paul of Samosata.

Modalistic Monarchianism: Held a view that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not three persons but three modes or forms of God’s activity; God revealed Himself as Father in the work of creation, as Son in the work of redemption (Patripassianism), and as the Holy Spirit in the work of sanctification. Major proponents: Noetus , Calixtus I (AD 217-223), Beryllus (AD 230-244), Praxeas, Epigonus (around AD 200), and Sabellius.

*MONOPHYSITISM: (410 A.D.)

The view that there is only one nature in Christ, namely the divine nature, or there is only one compounded nature of Christ. Much of Palestine was carried away by the movement and later, in the fifth century, Eutychianism found its roots in Monophysitism. Monophysitism was condemned by the Council of Chalcedon which declared that there are two natures in Christ, divine and human.

*MONOTHELITISM: (580-638 A.D.)


Monothelites held that in Jesus Christ there was only one divine will, (inclusive of one divine human energy; and one volitional activity), or, as it came to be expressed, that Christ had only one divine human will. This heresy first came to prominence in Alexandria, Egypt, (about AD 580). Major proponent: Honorious I (AD 560-638). Was condemned at the Sixth Ecumenical Council, Constantinople (AD 681), which affirmed that Christ had two natural wills and natural energies, holding that the wills are not opposed, but that the human will follows and is subordinate to the divine will.

MONTANISM: (165 A.D.)


Montanism held that the return of Christ was immediately eminent. Fanciful hopes connected with that expected return led to chiliastic speculations, especially among followers of Montanus, (second half of the 2nd century). Montanus taught against increasing laxity and worldliness in the church and he declared himself the instrument of the Paraclete promised by Christ and with two prophetesses (Prisca and Maximilla), announced the speedy establishment of the millennium centered at Pepuza in Phrygia. Adherents of the movement practiced asceticism and was widespread through Asia Minor, Gaul, Spain, Rome and North Africa.. Various similar teachings have cropped up throughout the history of the church.

*NESTORIANISM: (428 A.D.)


This heresy held that there is no communion of natures in the person of Christ. Mary is not the mother of God, but only the mother of Christ, and that according to His human nature Christ is in effect the Son of God only by adoption. Major proponent: Nestorious, patriarch of Constantinople (AD 428). Was condemned by the Council of Ephesus in AD 431, but was widespread in the Church.

PELAGIANISM: (400 A.D.)

This heresy taught that man’s nature was not depraved since the fall but is still in its original state of moral indifference and depends on the individual will to develop the moral germ of his nature and be saved. Irrestible grace and absolute predestination (double predestination) do not fit this system. But according to the view of Pelagianism, neither was grace or savlation by Christ necessary (a view incompatible with the essence of Christianity.) Some of those espousing Pelagianism taught: 1.) Adam would have died even if he had not sinned; 2.) Adam’s sin affected only himself, not his progeny; 3.) Newborn children are in the same state in which Adam was before the fall; 4.) It is not true that all men die in Adam and rise in Christ; 5.) the Law leads to salvation as much as the Gospel; 6.) before the Lord’s coming there were people without sin. Major proponents: Pelagius (AD 354-420), Celestius (about AD 411). Pelagianism was condemned by both the Western and Eastern Churches.

*SABELLIANISM: (215 A.D.)

Sabellius (AD early 3rd century), was a leader of modalistic monarchians (see above) at Rome. He was excommunicated by Calistus I, and was a strong supporter of patripassiansim. Sabellianism held the view that the Son was a different mode of the Father rather than a different person (Modalistic Monarchianism). The position protected the monarchy of God by refusing any reality to the Son’s individual divine existence.

*SEMI-ARIANISM: (336 A.D.)


Semi-Arianism attempted to find a mediating position between Arianism and the formulations of the Council of Nicea (AD 381). Nicea had confirmed that the Son is of one substance with the Father, while the Arians insisted that the Son was a creature and was not eternally begotten. The Semi-Arians minced words and said that the Son was, “of like substance” with the Father. This usage still denied the full deity of Christ.


SEMI-PELAGIANISM: (225 A.D.)

Semi-Pelagians rejected Pelagianism but did not deny freedom of the will and what they regarded as irresistible grace and predestination. They coordinated the human will and divine grace as factors in the work of salvation, holding that the reason why some are saved, others not, lies in an inner condition and receptivity in man, some making proper use of the will, others not; free will is only partially impaired but needs the help of divine grace; salvation is dependent on grace and the right use of natural powers. Major proponent: J. Cassianus of Massilia (3rd century AD).

*STOICISM: (308 B.C. – 300 A.D.)

Originally taught by Zeno in Athens, Greece around BC 308, Stoicism later became a factor in some Christian heresies up to and including modern existentialism. It also serves as common “roots” for much “New Age” thought. Stoicism held, in true pantheistic fashion, that man, animals, plants, and inanimate objects to be “fragments of the divine force.” A world-reason or “logos” pervades this universal being, in which all that happens works itself out according to internal necessity. It is futile, therefore, to resist the inevitable. By “right reason” man can discover his proper place in the universe and make such adjustments as are necessary in submitting to this all-determining world order. Passions hinder such resignation and, therefore, are to be suppressed. In theology, even God, then, is not free to act in opposition to the “logos”. To be sure, despite distant similarities between aspects Christianity and Stoicism, they are mutually exclusive.



FALSE DOCTRINES OF THE REFORMATION PERIOD


ANABAPTISTISM: (1537 A.D.)

In the aftermath of the Lutheran Reformation the Anabaptists revolted against both the Lutheran and Roman Catholic, (not to mention the Eastern Orthodox), practice of infant baptism insisting on both full immersion and adult baptism. Additionally, the Anabaptists rejected both the Lutheran and Roman Catholic concept of the church and its government. The more radical element stressed the importance of the “inner word” (individual enlightenment of the Holy Spirit without means), rather than the “external word” of Scripture. Other doctrines which are denied by Anabaptists are: the total depravity of man, original sin, election, and eternal damnation. Additionally they hold that man possesses freedom of the will and is capable of a direct and mystic communion with God. Major proponents: Menno Simons, Huebmaier and Denk.

ARMINIANISM: (1600 A.D.)

Founded by Jacobus Arminius (AD 1560-1609), a minister in Amsterdam, Arminianism holds five main teachings: 1.) God from all eternity predestined to eternal life those of whom He foresaw that they would remain steadfast in faith to the end. 2.) Christ died for all mankind, not only for the elect. 3.) Man cooperates in his conversion by free will. 4.) Man may resist divine grace. 5.) Man may fall from divine grace. These teachings were condemned by the Synod of Dort (AD 1618-1619), but under the leadership of other Dutch Reformers, (i.e., H. Uytenbogaert; S. Episcopius; S. Curcellaeus; Hugo Grotius; Ph. a Limborch; and others), the following tenets are commonly held by Arminians:

1. God’s knowledge of the future acts of free agents is mediate.
2. God’s decrees are based on his foreknowledge: election on foreseen faith and reprobation on foreseen
resistance to grace.
3. The image of God in man consists in man’s dominion over the lower creation.
4. Adam was created in innocency rather than in true holiness.
5. The covenant of works was abrogated after the Fall.
6. Sin consists in acts of the will.
7. Pollution is inherited from Adam, but his guilt is not imputed to any of his descendants.
8. Man’s depravity as a result of the Fall should not be described as total.
9. Man has not lost the facility of self-determination nor the ability to incline his will toward good ends.
10. The atonement was not absolutely necessary, but represents merely one way which God chose among many to manifest his love without prejudice to his righteousness.
11. The atonement is intended equally for all men and for every man, and it merely makes salvation possible. Salvation becomes effectual only when accepted by the repentant believer.
12. There is no common grace to be distinguished from special grace.
13. The external call of the gospel is accompanied by a universal sufficient grace which can be resisted.
14. Repentance and faith precede regeneration.
15. The human will is to be viewed as one of the causes of regeneration (synergism).
16. Faith is a good work of man and a ground of acceptance with God.
17. There is no imputation of Christ’s righteousness to the believer.
18. The believer is able to attain in this life a state of such conformity to the divine will that he may be called perfect.
19. As long as a man lives he may fall away from grace and lose his salvation altogether.

Nearly all of the above are condemned in the Lutheran Confessions and the Scriptures.

CALVINISM: (1555 A.D.)

The term is derived from the name of John Calvin (AD 1509-1564). The five main points of Calvinistic theology are:

1. Particular election (supralapsarianism). [God chose those who would be saved and those who will be
condemned.]
2. Particular redemption. [Christ died only for the Elect, not for all men.]
3. Moral inability in the fallen state;
4. Irresistible grace. [The call of God to the Elect cannot be resisted…no free will.]
5. Final perseverance.

These five main points were opposed by the rival system of Arminianism. In addition to the doctrine of grace, Calvin held the spiritual presence of Christ in the Lord’s Supper but not the doctrine of the real presence of Christ’s body in the sacrament. He stressed the sovereignty of God as the center point for the construction of his theology, rather than the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. Additionally, Baptism is merely a symbol of entry into the Body of Christ, but does not actually affect that entrance. Calvinism is condemned by the Lutheran Confessions and the Scriptures.

PIETISM: (1600 - 1700 A.D.)

This 17th – 18th century movement occurred within German Protestantism. Pietists regarded prevailing orthodoxy as spiritually unproductive. The avoidance of secular amusements was stressed while pastors to become curates, theological students educated, nobility to be true administrators, and the commonality to avoid secular amusements. While emphasizing some fine qualities (indeed Christians should be pious people), the movement became centered on the individual rather than the corporate expression of the Church and spawned modern critical theology out of the University Halle, Germany, with subjectivism and man-centeredness being the distinctive and persistent mark of liberal Neo-Protestantism. Additionally, from Pietism sprang the Pentecostal movement and the Neo-Pentecostal movement. Major proponents: P.J. Spener, John Wesley, Schleiermacher, L. v. Zinzendorf.


FALSE DOCTRINES OF THE MODERN ERA


DOCUMENTARY HYPOTHESIS: (1943)

From the school of Higher Critical Biblical Interpretation, the Documentary Hypothesis, (also known as the Graf-Wellhausen theory), makes the claim that the Pentateuch, (the first five books of the Bible), were not written by Moses as the Scriptures claim, but they are written by four different sources referred to as “J”, “E”, “D”, and “P”. These letters stand for “Jahwist”, “Elohist”, “Deuteronomist”, and “Priestly” writers. Supporters of the JEDP theory contend that the “J” source of the writings could not have been written earlier than the time of David (BC 1100), the “E” source writings no earlier than BC 722, the “D” source writings no sooner than BC 586, and the “P” source writings sometime after the “E” source writings. Then it is contended that after the Babylonian Exile the various writings were woven together into the “edited” version of the Pentateuch we now have. This makes most of the prophesies not prophetic at all but then occur after the events described. Despite the fact that there is virtually no evidence of such authorship in any historical setting and that authorship of the Pentateuch is expressly given to Moses throughout the Scriptures, the Documentary Hypothesis has been accepted by most mainline seminaries in the world. No two higher critics agree on a detailed analysis of the literature in question. Several contradicting source theories have also been presented and argued from time-to-time. As modern archaeology continued to confirm the content of the Mosaic writings, the conclusions of the Documentary Hypotheses are seen as increasingly unreliable.

EVOLUTION: (1870 A.D.)

This naturalistic theory holds that the universe in general, the solar system specifically, and the earth in particular, with all animate and inanimate objects existing thereon, have evolved or developed, over millions or billions of years in accord with existing natural laws, from some form of primitive mass that contained all materials needed to form the chemical elements now found in the universe. The atheistic branch of evolution states that everything now existing came into being only through existing natural laws. Theistic evolution accepts existence of a supernatural being who called into being the primitive mass and drew up fundamental laws of nature and who may, from time to time, step in to give evolution a helping hand. The theory was popularized by Charles Darwin’s book, Origin of Species. In the passing of time since Darwin’s writings, no fossil evidence of any transitional form has been found and now many evolutionists are moving away from the notion of gradual change to catastrophic change due to a lack of fossil evidence supportive of slow, gradual change. Probability science has discovered that there is virtually no probability that evolution could have occurred mathematically. Genetics have completely failed to replicate any form of transitional life. Yet, evolution is generally accepted as fact while Special Creation (the act of God to bring into being all existent life forms), is denied.

IMMACULATE CONCEPTION: (1854 A.D.)

In 1854, Pope Piux IX, declared as official dogma of the Roman Catholic Church the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. This dogma holds that God performed a singular grace that divine omnipotence bestowed upon the virgin Mary to preserve her from original sin by infusing into her soul sanctifying grace from the very instant of conception in the womb of her mother, St. Anne. Through this, Mary, who was to be the mother of the Son of God, was conceived in the state of holiness and justice. This effect, caused by the act of God, resulted in her being free of the consequences of original sin, such as the slavery to the devil, subjection to concupiscence, and darkness of intellect. Further, Mary was not subject to the law of suffering and death, which are penalties of the sin of human nature, even though she knew these, experienced them, and endured them for our salvation. In fact, there is no biblical support for the idea and it is to be concluded that Mary, while certainly blessed by God to be the mother of Jesus, was also in need of salvation as are all men. Additionally, the fact that Jesus was conceived “of the Holy Spirit” is sufficient to grant to Jesus the Christ His perfection both as God and man.

METHODISM: (1729 A.D.)

John Wesley’s theology was a modified Armininism. Christian perfectionism may be viewed as the central doctrine of Methodism. Wesley differed from John Calvin in holding that Christ died for all (Universal Justification). Wesley held that all men who are obedient to the Gospel according to the measure of light given them are in God’s kingdom. Man is free to reject or by the grace of God, to accept salvation (free salvation). The Holy Spirit assures man of his salvation directly (sure salvation). The real heart of Wesley’s theology was the doctrine of a pure heart. Christian perfectionism in Methodist theology is man’s ability to overcome evil and reach perfection (full salvation) in this life. In the first quarter of the 20th century large sections of Methodism became modernist. The transition from Wesley’s individual perfectionism to modernism’s social perfection was comparatively simple. The Creed of Methodism, 1908, Doctrines and Discipline of the Methodist Church, 1944, and The Book of Discipline of the United Methodist Church 1968, make it the duty of the church to help society solve such problems as class tensions, racial inequality, agricultural problems, economic insecurity, industrial accidents, liquor traffic, and international strife.

MODERNISM: (1815 A.D.)

Modernism in Protestantism has roots in the early 19th century. Under the leadership of G. Tyrrell, A.F. Loisy, A. Houtin, et. al., modernism made considerable progress. It’s premise is that there is no revealed and absolute truth and that man is constantly in search of religious truth. It is a theological method rather than a system of beliefs; it follows principles of German schools of liberal theology. F.D.E. Schleiermacher claimed to find the source of truth in a pious feeling of dependence on God; A. Ritschl emphasized the kingdom of God and ethics; E.P.W. Troeltsch sought truth in the comparative study of all religions. Modern presuppositions in philosophy, science, sociology, and psychology, are considered basic to discovery of religious truth. Modernism claimed that the basic religious truth is: the fatherhood of God, the immanence of God, the brotherhood of man, the perfectibility of man. Modernism may be summarized as follows: a.) The religious experiences of the past and the present are the criterion and standard of truth. The Bible is viewed as a record of religious experiences of Old Testament and New Testament times. All religious concepts (e.g., sin, grace, redemption, heaven) must be reinterpreted in light of current religious experience. b.) It assumes that man’s moral growth toward a unified personality is possible if man follows the biological and psychological laws of the universe. Man must also have faith in his own inherent capability for his development for a good life. c.) The message of modernism is the social gospel.

PAPAL INFALLIBILITY: (1870 A.D.)

In 1870, Vatican Council I proclaimed the doctrine of infallibility for both the Councils of the Church and certain Papal proclamations. This infallibility, it is claimed, is the end result of divine assistance given the church whereby she is preserved from the possibility and liability to error in teachings on matters of faith a morals. While not applying to the private opinions of the Pope or to his personal life, this claimed infallibility is said to be the assured guarantee of the unfolding of the apostolic deposit of faith by authority of the Church whereby Christ’s doctrine must and will be handed on by an infallible Church guided by the Holy Spirit. This modern “innovation” has no basis in the Scriptures and is founded only on the basis of human invention.

PENTECOSTALISM: (1890 A.D.)

Pentecostals believe that speaking in tongues, the gift of healing, and prophecy are normal for every truly converted believer. This phenomena harken back to the early Montanists, but did not find its modern day expression until the revivalism at the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century. The theology of Pentecostalism is a fusion of the so-called “Baptism of inner light” theory and Arminian perfectionism. Pentecostals usually claim to proclaim the “Full Gospel”. Their preaching centers in the necessity of being baptized with the Holy Spirit; some classify their membership as converted, saved, and Spirit-baptized. While there are some exceptions, typical Pentecostal beliefs include: Jesus shed His blood for the remission of sins that are past, for the regeneration of penitent sinners, and for salvation from sin and sinning; the Scriptural doctrine of justification by faith alone; that Jesus Christ shed His blood for the for the complete cleansing of the justified believer from all indwelling sin and from its pollution, subsequent to regeneration; that the entire work of sanctification is an instantaneous, definite second work of grace, obtainable by faith on the part of the full justified believer; that the Pentecostal baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire is obtainable by a definite act of appropriating faith on the part of the fully cleansed believer, and that the first evidence of the reception of this experience is speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance. Unfortunately, this places the emphasis not on what Christ has done for the full cleansing of all sin, but on what man must do to demonstrate the genuineness of his faith. It conceives of a system in which believers are “ranked” into groups of low, medium and high performing Christians. This concept has no foundation in the Scriptures. Also, the exercising of spiritual gifts is highly selective. Also mentioned among the “gifts” of the New Testament is drinking poison and handling snakes, but these “gifts” are understandably less popular. Additionally, there is much conjecture over the nature of the “tongues” which are spoken. Are they, as Acts 2 clearly portrays, unknown to those speaking them, but existent languages so that others may hear the mighty acts of God? Or are these tongues the language of angels in which people are enabled to receive messages from God that can then be interpreted by those with a claimed gift of interpretation? The main problem with the theology of Pentecostalism is that the essential work of the Holy Spirit (that of pointing only to Christ), is secondary to the claimed miraculous works of the Holy Spirit of a supernatural nature.


LIBERAL THEOLOGY: (Roots in the Age of Enlightenment 1648-1780, but coming to full form in the 20th Century.)

Liberal theologians seek to articulate Christianity in terms of contemporary culture and thinking. They attempt to maintain the essence of Christianity in modern terms and images. God is seen as immanent. He dwells within the world and is not above it or apart from it. Thus there stands no distinction between the natural and the supernatural. As to the Trinity, the Father works not supernaturally but through culture, philosophy, education, and society. Liberal theology is usually unitarian rather than Trinitarian, recognizing only the deity of the Father. Jesus was “full of God” but was not God incarnate. The Spirit is not a person within the Godhead but is simply God’s activity in the world. With respect to Christ, He is seen as one who gave a moral example for humanity. He also expressed God to us. Christ did not die to pay the penalty of our sins or impute His righteousness to man. He was neither God nor savior but merely God’s representative. The Bible is seen as a fallible human record of religious experiences and thought. The historical validity of the biblical record is doubted if not out-right rejected. Scientific assessments prove the miraculous in the Bible to be religious expression only. Man is not innately sinful but possesses a universal religious sentiment. The goal of salvation is not personal conversion but societal improvement. Christ set the ultimate example of what mankind is striving for and will ultimately become. Liberal theology has characteristically uniformly denied the Fall, original sin, and the substitutionary nature of the Atonement. Christ will not personally return. The kingdom will come as a result of a universal moral development.



BIBLIOGRAPHY:

1. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Robert C. Broderick, editor, Thomas Nelson Publishers, Nashville, Atlanta, London, Vancouver, 1987.

2. Baker’s Dictionary of Theology, Everett F. Harrison, editor-In-Chief, Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, MI, 1960.

3. House, H. Wayne, Charts of Christian Theology & Doctrine, Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, MI, 1992.

4. Gonzalez, Justo L., A History of Christian Thought, vol. I, Abingdon Press, Nashville, TN, 1970.

5. Lutheran Cyclopedia, Erwin L. Lueker, editor, Concordia Publishing House, St. Louis, MO, 1954.

6. Encyclopedia of Early Christianity, 2nd edition, Everett Ferguson editor, Garland Publishing, Inc., New York & London, 1998.
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Old 02-25-2020, 10:22 AM
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BIBLE PASSAGES PERTAINING TO FALSE TEACHERS AND FALSE DOCTRINE

MATTHEW 7:15-20

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. (NKJV)

ACTS 20:26-31

26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears. (NKJV)

II CORINTHIANS 11:13-15

13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds. (ESV)

GALATIANS 1:6-8

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.

PHILIPPIANS 1:27-28

Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel, and not frightened in anything by your opponents. This is a clear sign to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God.


COLOSSIANS 2:8

8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

I THESSALONIANS 2:13


13 And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

II THESSALONIANS 3:6

6 But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.

I TIMOTHY 6:3-5

3 If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, 4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, 5 and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.


II TIMOTHY 2:14-18


14 Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. 16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, 17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some.

II TIMOTHY 3:14-17

14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

II TIMOTHY 4:1-5

1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. 5 As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

II PETER 1:19-21


19 And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.


II PETER 2:1-3

1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

II PETER 2:10b – 13a, 17

Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones, 11 whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord.
12 But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction, 13 suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing…17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved.

I JOHN 1, 5-6

5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

II JOHN 7-11

7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. 9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

JUDE 3-4

3 Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.


I do not believe any of these are in the slightest way unclear or figurative in their meaning. False doctrine is Satan's own tool to divide His Church which was to be united in doctrine as befits the union of the Bride of Christ and our Lord.
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Old 02-25-2020, 11:25 AM
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First, everyone has a relationship with Christ. It's either a good one or a bad one.
I guess we will have agree to disagree. Knowing Jesus vs. knowing about Jesus—what is the difference?

There are many passages about God calling people. Even Peter was given information about Jesus by God. Most did not know who Jesus was. This knowing/having a relationship with Jesus is binary. Jesus himself says to some that he never knew even those who called him lord in Matthew 7:21–23. My friend, I'll take Jesus word over yours.
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Old 02-25-2020, 12:35 PM
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Quote by peter
Oy vey. Just off the top of my head ...
1. If the word of God is always true, how could we go from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant?

Not sure what you are referring to here.
2. You think it is honest to deceive Pharaoh from his own good judgment? (God hardened his heart?) God didn’t deceive Pharoah. Pharoah was an Idol worshiper. Scripture says that God hardened his heart and sometimes Pharoah hardend his own heart. This is not lying or deceiving because God is sovereign and can do anything He wants. And He is always right. This is explained in Scripture
Quote:
Rom 9:21* Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?*Rom 9:17* For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.*
Rom 9:22* What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:*(Pharoah and the Egyptians)
Rom 9:23* And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,*(Moses and the Israelites).
The Creator has the right to do whatever He wants with His creation. Just as the potter can make any pot he wants for any purpose and then destroy it if he chooses. God knows the heart of every person.
Remember, Egypt worshiped many false gods. The 10 plagues were directly aimed at these false gods. Pharoah had put the Israelites in slavery. And as Idol worshipers his and their cup of iniguity was full. God was bringing judgment on them. For God’s own reasons, He used Pharoah in this way. Remember, All have sinned and the wages of sin is death. All deserve death because of sin. Pharoah deserved death just like everyone does.

3. Any theory on how come snakes don't talk anymore? Evolution? Why would you think snakes should talk. The serpent talked to Eve because Satan had entered into the Serpent. When God cursed the serpent He didn’t mention anything about not talking anymore, just crawling on its belly. The only time animals talked in Scripture are in numbers 22:28
Quote:
And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass . . ;
and in Isaiah and Revelations when the Beasts are saying Holy, Holy, Holy to God on the throne. Each time it is supernatural. There may be another time I don’t remember, but it would be supernatural.

4. How come Adam & Eve did not die the day they ate the fruit as God said? As you know, Adam and Eve died spiritually that day. Lost their innocence, removed from the Garden, no more daily communion with God, passing the dead to God sin nature down to their progeny. That is why Scripture speaks of our spirit being made alive when we receive Christ.
Quote:
Col_2:13* And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened(means make alive) together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;Eph_2:1* And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;Eph_2:5* Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

5. Did the sun stay still in the sky so the walls of Jericho could come down or did the Earth stay still in its orbit around the sun?
Quote:
Jos_10:12* Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
Jos_10:13* And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
The sun did not move across the sky. It stood still in the Sky. This is true even though we know the earth rotates. When you look up at the sky do you say the earth is rotating or the sun is rising, setting, mars, Venus are rising, the moon is rising. It was when the Israelites were fighting the Amorites.

6. Which is wrong, putting people to death for working on the Sabbath (even collecting fire wood) or Jesus saying working on the Sabbath is OK?
You know that the man collecting wood on the Sabbath in Numbers Chapter 15 was breaking the commandment. The punishment was stoning to death. Same as in Romans 6:23. the wages of sin is death. In Matthew 12 when Christ and the Disciples pluck the ears of corn on the Sabbath. Christ says in
Quote:
Mat 12:8* For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
*He had the right to direct the observance of the Sabbath, more evidence of His Divinity. Not wrong nor a lie.

Quote:
7. If the word of God is always true, he could not deceive 400 prophets like he admitted doing, right? See Ez 14:9
Quote:
Eze 14:6* Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.*
Eze 14:7* For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:*
Eze 14:8* And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.*
Eze 14:9* And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.*
If you will read the passage to get the context you will see that God thru Ezekiel is warning Israel to repent and turn away from idols. For when a worshiper of idols goes to a so called prophet (false one), the false prophet’s message will not be true, because he is a false prophet. God had previously said that if a prophets message does not come to pass 100%, he is a false prophet and the message was not from God. God will answer the idol worshiper and the false prophet by setting his face against him. God does not send the false prophet a false message, He doesn’t send a message at all. God allows the prophet to give his own message. God lets the false prophet say whatever he wants. The false prophet is deceived because he didn’t get a true message from God. Since he is a false prophet he may or may not believe the message comes from God. Surely you have asked a question of someone and not received an answer from them because the answer is obvious.

8. Jesus said this generation would not disappear before the 2nd coming. That was 2,000 year ago. Any theories on that? Pretty simple. The generation that witnesses those things in Matthew 24 shall not pass away but will see Christ return. He was not talking about the 1st century but the generation in the 21 century or beyond.

What part of the Bible is true and what part is false. How do you determine a lie in Scripture.? How do you determine truth in Scripture. By sight or by faith.
An Example. The two witnesses who will testify during the tribulation period.
Quote:
Rev 11:8* And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.*
Rev 11:9* And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.*
Rev 11:10* And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.*
Rev 11:11* And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.*
A hundred years ago it would have been impossible for “ And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations” to all see the 2 dead witnesses. This would have been chalked up to symbolism or at least doubted as possible.. However today with satellites and TV, it is easy to see how this could happen. The Scripture was just as true 100 years ago as it is today. Determine truth in Scripture by faith.
Quote:
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him . . .

When Scripture is very clear on a particular attribute of God like Lev 19: ...for I the LORD your God am holy. Or 1 John 14:16 ...God is love; or Titus 1:2 ... In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie; one should interpret the scriptures that would seem to contradict these things in light of these clear attributes.
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Old 02-25-2020, 01:13 PM
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The Creator has the right to do whatever He wants with His creation.
Agreed. I was responding to the question of honesty or deception within the Bible. You are the one who started the thread on Rahab’s lie. So, we’ve been through this.

How do you respond to lying or turning Ann Frank over to the Nazis?
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Old 02-25-2020, 02:09 PM
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I guess we will have agree to disagree. Knowing Jesus vs. knowing about Jesus—what is the difference?

There are many passages about God calling people. Even Peter was given information about Jesus by God. Most did not know who Jesus was. This knowing/having a relationship with Jesus is binary. Jesus himself says to some that he never knew even those who called him lord in Matthew 7:21–23. My friend, I'll take Jesus word over yours.
Peter,

You keep insisting that doctrine doesn't really matter but only a relationship with Jesus matters. I have been attempting to make the point that you simply can't have a relationship without understanding the doctrine of the Christian faith. Doctrine is what Scripture teaches us about Jesus. It's how we know Him for what He is. In fact, it actually matters if someone says something about Jesus that isn't true and makes Him out to be something less than Scripture says of Him.

I believe you are equating "knowing Jesus" with being in a "believer" status with Jesus and therefore among His elect. There are lots of folks running around in our day who claim to be "spiritual" not "religious". Mostly this simply means that they have no idea what either term actually means. What we say about Jesus is either truth or it is blasphemy about Him. Words matter. Faith matters. Knowing God's Law matters. Understanding how one obtains eternal life matters. What can teach us about these things? Only the doctrine of Holy Scripture.
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Old 02-25-2020, 02:16 PM
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The business about Old Covenant v. New Covenant is an invention of radical Protestantism. It supposes that God had a different plan of salvation for the Jews and a different one for the Gentiles. It is a false teaching.

God (Father, Son & Holy Spirit), only can have a "Plan A" and never needs a "Plan B". The entirety of the Bible could easily go by the name, "How God Saves His World", (not that I would recommend changing the name.) The book from beginning to end is only about Jesus, the Son of God who is also fully man who is first promised in Gen. 3:15 in response to Adam and Eve's fall into sin until the final judgment in Revelation. That's all the book is about. It is, from beginning to end, doctrine (didache) in the Greek. The term is synonymous with "teaching". the Bible teaches us about God...all three persons. That's what it does and it is the only source of knowledge other than the natural God revealed in His creation who is only a fearful, demanding God.

So there is no Old Covenant v. New Covenant. There is only the Law and Gospel. Period, Done!
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Old 02-25-2020, 02:31 PM
arleigh arleigh is offline
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It was God's intention for the beginning to being man's source for knowledge. man disregarded that.
So long as one prefers the tree of knowledge over that of God, no positive relationship with Him exists.
Jesus provided the Holy Spirit so that God can again teach man.
I much prefer God's tutelage.
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Old 02-25-2020, 03:51 PM
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FALSE DOCTRINES OF THE REFORMATION PERIOD

CALVINISM: (1555 A.D.)

The term is derived from the name of John Calvin (AD 1509-1564). The five main points of Calvinistic theology are:

1. Particular election (supralapsarianism). [God chose those who would be saved and those who will be
condemned.]
2. Particular redemption. [Christ died only for the Elect, not for all men.]
3. Moral inability in the fallen state;
4. Irresistible grace. [The call of God to the Elect cannot be resisted…no free will.]
5. Final perseverance.

These five main points were opposed by the rival system of Arminianism. In addition to the doctrine of grace, Calvin held the spiritual presence of Christ in the Lord’s Supper but not the doctrine of the real presence of Christ’s body in the sacrament. He stressed the sovereignty of God as the center point for the construction of his theology, rather than the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. Additionally, Baptism is merely a symbol of entry into the Body of Christ, but does not actually affect that entrance. Calvinism is condemned by the Lutheran Confessions and the Scriptures.
Lutherans do not have authority to condemn. Do Calvinists agree that their doctrine is or was false? Generally, I reject the predestination of Calvinism but certainly embrace what is in blue as supported by Scripture and reason.

Not sure why you posted these 2 long lists as my point was to generally categorize the false teaching mentioned in Scripture. Implied is you reject the working definition of heresy as keeping one from salvation. It is irrelevant to Salvation if one believes in transubstantiation or not, worship on Saturday or Sunday, hold baptism is an external manifestation of an already present internal transformation or not. This is what matters, actions not wordy doctrines:

2 My brothers and sisters, I know you’ve heard this before, but stop playing favorites! Do not try to blend the genuine faith of our glorious Lord Jesus, the Anointed One, with your silly [pretentious doctrines] (emphasis added).

14 Brothers and sisters, it doesn’t make any sense to say you have faith and act in a way that denies that faith. Mere talk never gets you very far, and a commitment to Jesus only in words will not save you. 15 It would be like seeing a brother or sister without any clothes out in the cold and begging for food, and 16 saying, “Shalom, friend, you should get inside where it’s warm and eat something,” but doing nothing about his needs—leaving him cold and alone on the street. What good would your words alone do?

James 2:1, 14-16 (VOICE)
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Old 02-25-2020, 03:58 PM
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Peter,

You keep insisting that doctrine doesn't really matter but only a relationship with Jesus matters. I have been attempting to make the point that you simply can't have a relationship without understanding the doctrine of the Christian faith.
And I keep rejecting your point.

AJ often submits a thought experiment with a person or 2 on a deserted island who somehow could read a Bible that happened to be there but no knowledge of the doctrines you espouse. A relationship with God is all that matters. Others have already pointed out where Jesus said the Holy Spirit will guide you in all things.
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Old 02-26-2020, 12:32 AM
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And I keep rejecting your point.

AJ often submits a thought experiment with a person or 2 on a deserted island who somehow could read a Bible that happened to be there but no knowledge of the doctrines you espouse. A relationship with God is all that matters. Others have already pointed out where Jesus said the Holy Spirit will guide you in all things.

Yes, you are not required to have scripture or even read it to get to Heaven. Someone on that island could tell me about Jesus, and if I choose to accept His free gift, I get to go when I die. The word is there to further the understanding and also to help those that witness be able to answer some pertinent questions. But the written word is not a requirement to salvation. God said He could make the rocks cry out if He wanted to. Every man is given a measure of faith, to BELIEVE. Why is it that, going back in time, even folks that have never read the book or been preached to have beliefs in supernatural, or god's, etc. The indians believed in a happy hunting ground. The Mayans sacrificed to the gods. There is something inside of each person that deals with the spirit man. This is built in, not because of being taught. This is the way God intended. He even says all you have to do is look at creation and know that He exists. And the Word also says "God is a Spirit, and the things of God must be Spiritually Discerned". This doesnt mean turn to a book or papers.

But I do not, in any way, want to lessen the importance of scripture. It definitely has its righteous place in our walk with Christ.
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Old 02-26-2020, 07:48 AM
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All these denominational squabbles seem to come down to that. "Your doctrine is not right." Is responded with, "No, you are the heretic." Another says I belong to the true church. Still, another says, no, my church is the true church. That's academic. That's religion. Jesus did not emphasize these things.
Correct!

The Church or "Gathering of Believers" has been turned into an exclusive country club with man made fences and requirements.

Jesus, Paul, Peter teachings are full of "what ever thou shall do", "whatsoever YOU shall say", "seek Christ in all things"...we have NO NT teachings to cling to the gathering aka: some Church as a source for salvation, hope, healing etc. One misquoted verse on the Church JW's Mormons and others love to cling too.

The mark of every Cult will always overemphasize their exclusive Church as "THE" truth, the life and the way. That belongs to Christ alone.

IN the New Testament scene we have on judgement day, Jesus ONLY focused on individual efforts. Feed me, visit me, clothe me etc. NOT ONCE did Jesus approve or condemn or even mention Church membership status.

Cults will always claim to have exclusive rights and even ownership of the Holy Spirit and have reduced the gospel message down to used car dealership levels.

Rather cults are forced to convince people to look at non-biblical sources written by their false leadership to explain away God's word and replace them with man-made doctrines written hundreds of years later.

We are warned over and over again that these false teachers and groups would be coming.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 - For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

1 John 4:1 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1 Timothy 6:3-5 - If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according

CULTS: But hear what our guy said in 300AD, 1000AD, 1500AD, 1950AD etc.

VS.

GOD's WORD: (Romans 16:17-18) urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned from us. Keep away from them. 18For such people are not serving our LORD Christ, but their own appetites.

(1 Corinthians 4:6) Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.

Did early Christians believe this? YES many did!

St. Cyprian of Carthage (200?-258), “Whence comes this tradition? Does it descend from the Lord’s authority, or from the commands and epistles of the apostles? For those things are to be done which are there written . . . If it be commanded in the gospels or the epistles and Acts of the Apostles, then let this holy tradition be observed,” (Cyprian of Carthage, Ep. 74 ad Pompeium).

Athanasius (300?-375)
“The Holy Scriptures, given by inspiration of God, are of themselves sufficient toward the discovery of truth. (Orat. adv. Gent., ad cap.) The Catholic Christians will neither speak nor endure to hear anything in religion that is a stranger to Scripture; it being an evil heart of immodesty to speak those things which are not written,” (Athanasius, Exhort. ad Monachas).

Ambrose (340?-396), “How can we use those things which we do not find in the Holy Scriptures?” (Ambr. Offic., 1:23).

Polycarp: Let us, therefore, foresake the vanity of the crowd and their false teachings, and turn back to the word delivered to us from the beginning
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Old 02-26-2020, 10:23 AM
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originally posted by peter
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Agreed. I was responding to the question of honesty or deception within the Bible. You are the one who started the thread on Rahab’s lie. So, we’ve been through this.

How do you respond to lying or turning Ann Frank over to the Nazis?
Not going to comment on the Ann Frank situation or any other non Bible passage. But i will do my best to comment on any Biblical issues or situations.

Scripture says lying is sin. Scripture says all lairs will have their place in the lake of fire. Rahab lied to keep the men safe. According to Scripture that was sin. Scripture says
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Rom 6:23* For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
* However James and Hebrews says Rahab had faith. Rahab was in the line of Christ. Rahab sinned but thru her faith in the God of the Hebrews she was forgiven of that sin. Just like you and I if we believe in the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ and receive His as our Savior.

I would still like to know how to determine which parts of the Bible are true and which parts are deception and lies. Since some believe that Adam and Eve didn't die spiritually when they ate the forbidden fruit, and so God was lying when He said they would surely die, I wonder if God was lying when Christ Jesus said John 3:16-18.
Quote:
Joh 3:16* For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.*
Joh 3:17* For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.*
Joh 3:18* He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
*How can you tell.
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Old 02-26-2020, 10:31 AM
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All these denominational squabbles seem to come down to that. "Your doctrine is not right." Is responded with, "No, you are the heretic." Another says I belong to the true church. Still, another says, no, my church is the true church. That's academic. That's religion. Jesus did not emphasize these things.
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Originally Posted by OhioMan View Post
Correct!
DEAD WRONG!

It is not about doctrines but if YOU ARE UNITED WITH CHRIST the way he established on how someone can be united with Him.

That is if you care about such things and do not take Christ at an academical level alone.
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Old 02-26-2020, 12:27 PM
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DEAD WRONG!

It is not about doctrines but if YOU ARE UNITED WITH CHRIST the way he established on how someone can be united with Him.

That is if you care about such things and do not take Christ at an academical level alone.
I agree!

United with Christ alone is my point. God's word is crystal clear on the subject!

(Acts 4:12)
And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

(John 3:16)
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

(Galatians 2:20)
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

(Romans 5:1)
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

(1 Corinthians 15:1-58)
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. ...

(Philippians 3:9)
And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—

Not even a peep about joining the "Right" church and all their silly claims of being the "Correct or Right Church or gathering".
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Old 02-26-2020, 12:35 PM
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PeterEnergy PeterEnergy is offline
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Originally Posted by OhioMan View Post
Correct!

The Church or "Gathering of Believers" has been turned into an exclusive country club with man made fences and requirements.

The mark of every Cult will always overemphasize their exclusive Church as "THE" truth, the life and the way. That belongs to Christ alone.
Very well said!! The only 'doctrine' that matters - relationships via loving God and loving acts toward others.

The Gospel is too simple for ambitious men to leave alone. The new guy even supposed me not submitting to his cult doctrine = me not submitting to Christ! Hence, academic cult like doctrines, pitting one academic cult doctrine against another, violating Titus 3:9. Talk is cheap. Action is where it is at. While the words 'trinity' or 'pope' or 'Apostolic succession' is not even in Scripture, the doctrine of Christ is plain even to those who call him Master. Those who call Jesus 'Master' are cursed by God who deny the responsibility of loving relationships with their neighbor. Salvation lost by the goats who call Jesus master.


41 At that He will turn to those on His left hand.

King: Get away from Me, you despised people whom My Father has cursed. Claim your inheritance—the pits of flaming hell where the devil and his minions suffer. 42 For I was starving, and you left Me with no food. When I was dry and thirsty, you left Me to struggle with nothing to drink. 43 When I was alone as a stranger, you turned away from Me. When I was pitifully naked, you left Me unclothed. When I was sick, you gave Me no care. When I was in prison, you did not comfort Me.

Unrighteous: 44 Master, when did we see You hungry and thirsty? When did we see You friendless or homeless or excluded? When did we see You without clothes? When did we see You sick or in jail? When did we see You in distress and fail to respond?

King: 45 I tell you this: whenever you saw a brother hungry or cold, when you saw a sister weak and without friends, when you saw the least of these and ignored their suffering, so you ignored Me.

46 So these, the goats, will go off to everlasting punishment. But the beloved, the sheep (the righteous), will go into everlasting life.

Matthew 25:41-46 (VOICE)
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Old 02-26-2020, 12:41 PM
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DEAD WRONG!

It is not about doctrines but if YOU ARE UNITED WITH CHRIST the way he established on how someone can be united with Him.
I think where we disagree is the "how." I hold it is the Holy Spirit. You hold it is "THE" Church - meaning your cult.

Again, I go back to the AJ thought experiment of someone on an island who came across a Bible and could read it with no other outside contact.
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Old 02-26-2020, 12:47 PM
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I think where we disagree is the "how." I hold it is the Holy Spirit. You hold it is "THE" Church - meaning your cult.

Again, I go back to the AJ thought experiment of someone on an island who came across a Bible and could read it with no other outside contact.
I do not hold it is the Church. I hold it it is the Holy Spirit that comes ONLY through the Sacraments that were established by Jesus. Those Sacraments are given through the Church. This is what is called a "sacramental faith" validated by the Saints and the miracles recorded in history, while you believe intellectually that you talk with the Spirit.
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