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Scout rifles - worthwhile?

28K views 209 replies 43 participants last post by  now with more beef 
#1 ·
I've been reading about Jeff Coopers scout rifle concept for a while, and even went so far as to get myself a Ruger Gunsite Scout several years ago with the plans of turning it in to a scout rifle and that never happened.

Now my views have changed on the concept and I am thinking that a bolt action rifle, while not limited in caliber selection is limited in all of the other criteria Cooper laid out in this modern time period where Semi autos are capable of the same level of accuracy as a good quality bolt action rifle all in a lightweight, compact, easy to shoot package.

I'm not saying bolt action guns don't have their uses, but I'm not seeing anything that a good quality semi automatic rifle in .308 or another cartridge like .270 or .300 Win mag (yes they exist for just a little over $1,000) can do compared to a Scout rifle.

Any argument that a bolt action rifle looks "less scary" than a semi auto is pointless because guns like the Browning BAR (not the machine gun), Remington 740/7400 and FN FNAR, ect. exist.

So those who prefer the Scout rifle concept over a semi auto in the same cartridge, I'm interested in hearing some of the benefits you think they have to offer.

Here's some info on the scout rifle concept if you don't already know what it is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_rifle
 
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#44 ·
I've always been intrigued at the concept. So far, the closest I've come was putting red dots in forward positions on a couple of my lever guns.

I have the Holosun on my Marlin 1895.



I did my Rossi 92 a step further and even put a light on it making it a viable defensive rifle, at least for homestead, or wilderness use. I wouldn't take it to war, but I would face any bad guy or beast with it. The red dot here is the Sig Romeo 5. This gun is one of my absolute favorites, and it shoots wonderfully smooth, and accurate. 9+1 rounds (you can fit 10, just not easy) of .44 mag is a good medicine for anything around inside of 100 yds or so.



I finally decided to build (have built) a scout rifle more in keeping with the original intent. My Brazilian Mauser is at the gunsmith right now, and should be done by Wed at the latest. (or so I'm told) The 7mm round is strong enough to kill anything I'll ever shoot, yet is easier on my shoulder than a .308W. The barrel was shortened to 20" and fitted with a Surefire Warcomp, like several of my other guns, in preparation for the suppressor I dream of buying one day. This was kinda what prompted the build. That 29" barrel kept the damn thing from fitting in my gun cabinet... It will rest in a Hogue stock. I had him mill the rear sight base flat, and fit it with a section of rail I had left from another rifle, and replace the straight bolt with a bent one. Should be nice. I have a Vortex Crossfire II 2-7 x 32 on the way, but I could always go to a red dot again. I love those... Dying for this to be done.
 
#49 ·
I think I already have the perfect rifle for this, Ruger model 788 in 308, Leupold Scope 2x7 two extra five round mags. Nice sling. Will shoot most ammo about .5 " all day. Iron back up sights still on it. Refinished the plain stocks with an oil finish. Light to carry, dead on accurate. If you have a chance to buy one of these rifles you should seriously consider it. I've shot two of them in diff calibers and both were dead on accurate. I think the Colonel would enjoy it very much.
 
#51 ·
Or if you want a hunting rifle with a few extra features. Like a stock that can be adjusted for LOP (GSR), a detachable magazine, the ability to forward mount optics and a flash suppressor which can be removed and replaced with a suppressor, provided you do the class III paperwork necessary to get one.
 
#52 ·
My first attempt at a scout rifle. I used a family hand me down Brazilian Mauser (7x57) my father-in-law's uncle brought back from Italy in 1946.

Yes, I know that the collector purists will freak out... I have taken a numbers matching war bring back Mauser that doesn't have any import markings, and cut the barrel off... Fact is, this rifle has been in my wife's family for 70+ years, and hasn't even been fired in over 30 because nobody liked the stock or sights. Well, that's probably what happened to 75% of the bring backs. They became hunting rifles. Besides, if you have an original, it's now worth more... By not mounting a conventional scope, at least I can still see the Brazilian crest on the receiver ring.

I had the 29" barrel cut to 20" (wouldn't fit in my gun cabinet anyway) then fitted with a Surefire Warcomp to match my other guns, and so a suppressor can be used. The gunsmith just happened to have one Hogue stock left for a Mauser. I LOVE Hogue stocks. This, however prompted a change of plans. I was happy with the straight bolt, but the new stock has a cut out for a bent bolt, and it would look funny. Well, he also happened to have a bin full of bolt handles, so I told him to throw one on, but leave it in the white, and spray it with clear Krylon so it looks kinda like the original, and matches the receiver. Works real good. as soon as my hand leaves the gun, my fingers are right on the handle. Glad I got it.

Then I had him mill the rear sight base flat, and bolt down a leftover section of picatinny rail I had for a scope mount. Trying to cheap out and not buy the XS scout mount. My original idea was to have the mount fit through the factory top wood, but then I seen that Hogue stock, and lost it... I may get the XS mount anyway in the future just because this looks kinda clunky, with the Hogue, but it works. He has several Timney triggers left over that he tried to sell me, but I need to try it more as is first. Its does shoot smooth, just heavy. Haven't tried it yet with the new stock.

I ordered a Vortex Crossfire II 2-7x32 Scout Scope for it. This, I really have mixed feelings about, and all I've done so far is walk around with it in the woods on my property. At 2 power, boom, it's right there. At 3 or even 4, it's good, but at anything higher you have to start stretching your neck out to get closer to the scope. It's practically unusable at 7 power unless you're a giraffe. Now I understand If I'm taking a distant shot, I'll be taking my time anyway. No snap shot here, but it's damn uncomfortable, and may go back. Maybe a Leupold. Also thinking about just going red dot. I love red dots... Still undecided on sights yet. Waiting on more money, and looking for a rear peep that won't interfere with stripper clip feeding.

 
#58 ·
Having such a small scope on my rifle right now I would agree, but I can see the benefit of a forward mount for longer, high magnification scopes, which are out of the parameters of the Scout concept.

I don't have the Leupold scope on my rifle right now as I'll need picatinny bases, but I'm not sure it'll work how I want it to. I do have a 3.5x prism scope by Primary Arms on it and it seems to work for now, though I've yet to test it. I might try to upgrade to the 5x with better eye relief due to the longer tube, but will test the 3x out before that
 
#64 ·
Lets see here........

1. Ongoing evaluation via the TCR22. ( Still behind with this and have 11 more loads to test for accuracy/ reliability.

2. Similar for the Ruger LCP.

3. Load development ( ongoing with that M14S since 2003 now)

4. Data development concerning the M25.

5. Recently purchased another Norinco M14S as a build host, but this is on the back burners for now...as with the GSR.

6. Terminal effects data using an AK pistol ...vs....the large feral pig population I have around the property now.

7. Preparing for a " group training event" that is just around the corner.

8. Work related training

9. An upcoming civilian run weapons course I will be attending if time permits.

10. Two thermal weapon sight ongoing Evals.

11. Three... day optic Evals ongoing. ( 2 Leopold and 1 Vortex.)

12. Another project involving a synthetic M14 stock.

13. .....Which just reminded me about. Forgotten project involving a laminated wood stock for a M1A A1 Bush rifle.

14. Way behind with 2 other handguns. ( G19 and Ruger 2245)

15. Still have at least one AR to finish building for the upcoming Sheeple panic.

16. A hunting trip planned for the Rockies this year.

There is more, but that is what I am trackin currently.

11B
 
#65 ·
just forget the whole cooper "scout rifle" concept its a failure! Cooper just took a failed experiment from WW2 Germany and marketed it as his idea.....and it was just as bad!!

If you want a good bolt action survival rifle, look to the north, to our friends in Canada and see what they gave the Canadian Rangers that live and work in the arctic!!! The C-19!!!!
If you cant afford it, then base your build off of what they did to make a C-19 style rifle, it makes more sense and you mount the scope in the correct place and not be handicapped with the short falls of a scout scope!!!
 
#66 ·
DEFINE FAILURE
I like the scout concept and have had several rifles set up that way over the years.
For a "survival/bush rifle a surplus mauser action with a forward mounted scope lets you also use stripper clips for reload if the necessity strikes.

When I was shooting competition I shot my M1A shorty in rifle events with a forward mounted EEr scope. Much faster than a conventional scope setup with more visibility of targets area shooting both eyes open.

It still lives all these years later, obviously NOT a failure. Maybe not a raging success story, but certainly a very functional alternative to other options.
 
#71 ·
ANOTHER THING about a forward mount scope

You get a misfeed, malfunction,extractor jump the case, etc... without a scope over the action you have better access to actually clear your problem.

With a forward mount you can shoot your GARAND without having to offset the scope to the side of the receiver.

With a forward EEr scope I guarantee you can shoot faster on multiple targets when close in then you ever can with a normal scope position.

Some folks just don't appreciate the beauty of "different".:thumb:
 
#72 ·
You left out one other.........

A forward mounted optic can be had to sit lower vs a traditionally mounted optic.

M14 for example: I used an Ultimak M8 hg and TRS25 RDS for partial cowitness with its iron sights. The ARMS 18 mount sit up a tad too high for this, and it gives the lowest profile of any reciever mount out there.....and on par with the Springfield Armory INC " scout mount and LRB ARMS M25 reciever.


As for the " guarantee ", I have used both methods with various optics, and found it to be the opposite in my case. ( RDS = a straight up tie if all else is equal.) No problems with both eyes open using optic in pics below over reciever, and especially during periods of limited visibility vs fast moving feral pigs at close range. ( As for an M1Garand or BM59, a forward mounted optic is the route I would take.)

Note: I use a Leopold 1x4x20mm VX HOG scope with QD rings off of an ARMS 18 GEN1 " split rail " mount....in which does add more room over the bolt ( See picsseconds.On the flip side.......At 600 yards using the same scope cranked up to 4x, I can reliably dump critters from the prone unsupported position / hasty sling with one shot , and no need for any turrent adjustments. All within a handful of seconds.

In any case, the GSR gives folks the option of trying out either method for themselves so that they can determine what route works for them ( Too include the M14 types/ Socom16/ M1A scout squad).

Note: The XS rail ( GSR) gives one very little access to the bolt regardless of if scope is mounted or not.

Note: As can be seen in some of the photos below, the Arms18 mount does away with the " stripper clip guide". I don't use it because of the steps involved to " top off" a partially empty 20rd M14 magazine. ( Pull a 5rd clip out/ pull bolt back to the rear and " catch" the live round being ejected/ insert clip into guide/ push 5rds into magazine/ remove empty clip/ either inserted individual round thru top or pocket it with the now empty 5rd clip/ lock and load................vs......... Exchanging partially empty mag with another that is topped off.( Round in chamber stays put btw)
Now envision using either method while moving from one firing point to another.

Note: The last photo below shows a side view with 2 rifles. Rifle on left =Norinco M14S reciever/ ARMS 18 GEN 1 mount. Rifle on right = SAI M1A reciever / No mount with cartridge ( stripper) clip guide.

As far as I know, the C19 has no provision for fwd mounted optics.

In regards to semiautomatics and bolt actions for the " scout rifle concept "and how Copper envisioned it.........
He was not opposed to the idea, and said that he could not find a semiauto that met his requirements. He also stated that his favorite fighting rifle was the BM59 or M14.

Although it is a simple easy and quick chore to close a working spindle valve via any M14 type ( Thus giving one a " spring assisted straight pull bolt action rifle), I see more value in using this type of rifle in semiauto, and would rather have the option and not need it ( Classic scout concept or not), then the other way around.

11B
 

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#73 ·
Scout rifle, bush rifle, brush gun, swamp gun, hunting rifle, sporting rifle and assault rifle(fake term used by the govt)..... its all marketing BS! it means nothing. you can call any rifle by those terms, a lever action, pump action bolt action, semi or a single shot can all use those terms. Now if your talking about rectal guns, anal guns, punt guns or alarm guns......those terms have real meanings and they are very unique and interesting firearms to say the least.

....its not the gun that sucks, its the forward mounted scope(AKA scout scope marketing term) idea that sucks. yes they work, but they have more short falls than a conventionally mounted scope.

now anyone can jump up and down crying about how good their set up is and try to make others drink their Kool-Aid.....but the fact still wont change. just look at the firearms industry, the scope industry, the worlds militaries, snipers sharp shooters competitors and hunters from any county you name it......conventionally mounted scopes are king for a reason.

Any rifle call it what ever you want to call it will shoot better with the scope mounted to the receiver. that's just a fact! mounted on the barrel it has to deal with barrel whip, heat, vibration, expansion and barrel flex. Then you have the short falls of mounting a scope that far out, biggest is wash out.
Like I said, Germany figured this out many many years ago......and scrapped the idea
 
#82 ·
"ME THINKETH, THOU doest protest too much."

We get it... YOU do not like the forward EER scopes.
AND
you REALLY do not like Kool-aid.. although I remember it fondly as a great summer drink when I was young.
SO ... do not use one.
There are those of us who do like them, and have used them for many years.
I have also used conventional mounted scopes for over 60 years.

When I shot in "light rifle" competition against guyz shooting their plastic fantastic .22s I was shooting my M1A A1 with a forward mount scope and doing it faster and dropping targets with any kind of hit because I was shooing in 7.62x51/,308 (I also had a McArthur muzzle brake on it) Within its prospective use range it is faster shooting both eyes open and can follow multiple moving targets without any difficulty. IT worked for me and if I was going into battle close situation it would definitely be my choice for those up close and interpersonal communications.

I figure the practical limitation of the scope set up to be equivalent to the working range of the AR, 5-600yds. Obviously, it will shoot farther, but it becomes a little more guess work than precision. SO WHAT?
IF I envision targets being at distance, then I use a different rifle with a conventional scope setup.

IF..
IT were the end of the world and I would only have one absolute rifle to grab for everything in the future.. it would probably NOT be a forward EER mount rifle, because of the limitations they do have. BUT, this is presently not the case.

IF, I were dropped in the middle of the most hostile wilderness in a survival situation where I had to live off the land and my skills, THe M1A A1 with the EER would be my 1st choice for the gun to be stranded with because it is handy and very quick to bear and is of a caliber to stop anything with proper shot placement.

NO ONE envisions being a 1000yard sniper using a scout concept rifle, they were never intended to be. It is like comparing apples and monkeys.
THey may be an acquired taste like fine scotch or monster trucks. Not for everyone.

AND REMEMBER.. kool-aid, like revenge is best served very cold.
 
#75 ·
Not hardly.

The only whining/ crying I see here has to do with a certain Kool aide fetish......lol.

As for marketing. .......Welcome to capitalism sweety.

I call a rifle by it's actual norminclature/ factory signature simply so others know the exact type of rifle Im talking about.

M1A A1 Bush rifle pictured earlier for example. Not everyone knows the difference between a Bush rifle and a Scout squad. ( Just as you utilized C19 for your explanation of a good pick for a rifle.)

Sometimes I cut it short simply to type less
" M14S" = A custom built M14 styled rifle using a Norinco M14S ( S= Sportier) reciever, Criterion cl 18.5in std contour bbl, M14 service rifle stock, rear sight assembly, complete bolt assembly, gas system, connector lock conversion, bolt stop assembly, oprod assembly, stock/ handguard assembly, and SEI gas lock front sight ( hooded), Vortex direct connect flash hider, cotton web M1 Garand sling assembly, M1 Garand butt plate conversion

Should I go on or simply refer to it as M14S?

Already agree with your opinion regarding forward mounted optics, but that neither constitutes fact. Some like it and some don't. ( The Germans may agree with us, but they ended up on the loser side of that conflict...so ...whoopidy doooo) ... Lol.


And yes. My rifle is the absolute best rifle when it's in my hands. Not interested in selling it.

11B
 
#77 ·
The only true advantage of a bolt (or lever) action scout rifle I can think of is the fact that you can use low powered (like .308 small game loads, or subsonics) without affecting the weapon's operation. There's no gas system to worry about. For a long term (years), low/no logistics situation, a bolt/lever could make more sense from a reliability and spare parts perspective.

I've been thinking about either building a Savage or modding a Mosin Nagant into my idea of the ideal bolt action "survivalist" rifle.
 
#78 ·
The Savage build sounds interesting. A 308 chamber or a different cartridge in your case?

My SS GSR is very fast and easy to maintain in the field. The M14 takes a bit more time to maintain overall. Especially in areas with salt water such as salt water marshes etc.....

With that said, I have used " mouse fart" loads as well as subsonic loads and blanks thru both. ( 32acp via chamber adapter too boot.)......so no advantage here via bolt vs semiauto in the case of a GSR or M14S.


Lessons learned......

1. 32acp idea was crap for any real accuracy. Same with small game loads.
( My suppressed Ruger 22/45 LITE proved more accurate vs either)

2. The small game loads were a waste of space and weight. ( 22lr = much less space consuming and far less weight)

Note: The primary reason as to why I dont bother with 308 " small game" loads.

3. A preference for keeping full house 7.62x51mm / 308 in the rifle's chamber for unexpected encounters, and small game can be taken with the same ammo. ( All about shot placement)

4. Subsonic ammunition has shown a usefulness however. When utilizing the same can via both rifles, the noise difference is so slight it is hard to tell, but the M14 makes a bit more noise when the hammer drops.

Note: There is no gas system to worry about once I close the M14s spindle valve, as nothing can enter the gas cylinder once it is completely closed off.

5. Long term, I have no worries regarding any of my M14 types. One is well over 75k rds fired thru it, and I dought that my GSR will ever come close to that.

11B
 
#79 ·
With all due respects to the Colonel, This was/is a solution looking for a problem. In 99.9999999999999999 percent of real world "applications", an AR or Ak covers this 1000 times better for the purpose He himself described.

If you want a super cool rifle, yeah baby! I want one and I want a Luger too! If I gotta do work work....I'll pass
 
#80 ·
Reliable/ consistent 1 shot stop out to 450 yards via critters up to 1000 lbs using an AR chambered in 223 or an AK chambered in 7.62x39mm.

1000 times better than a 308 or 7mm08. ( Bolt, lever, or semiauto)

Got it.

Then again....if a body uses thier chosen boomstick as a range toy 99.9999999% of the time in their version of the real world...... A 1022 might be the better choice.
Especially for those that pass on going to work....lol.



11B
 
#81 ·
If you actually read the confrence notes you see what the Colonel and the group of gunsmiths and gun writers were trying to achieve.

They spec’d out a rifle with the available options of their day.

If they had Aimpoint or Trijicon reflex optic as a choice there would not have been forward mounted scopes.

There was no commercially available lightweight AR options in a full sized rifle round like the 6.5 Grendel. AR-10s were not readily available in lightweight versions. No pistol braces allowing non SBR....SBRs.

Things have changed a lot since they came up with the idea.
 
#89 ·
This thread is reading just like a 1911 vs Glock thread.

Coopers idea is outdated.
Just like the 1911 is outdated.
Just like the .25acp pocket pistols are outdated.

You like living old school?
Then have at it, but refusing to admit there are better options available now than there was then is just head up the ass stubbornness.
 
#107 ·
EVER SEE what is left of one of those AR wonder rifles after it is used in a manner otherwise than how it was planned, as in close contact hand to hand where one might use it as a bludgeoning instrument, as in for butt strokes and just swing the dang thing to drop the guy in front of you? How strong do you think that rear spring tube is? It aint purtee lookin.


Aside from the glorified .22 round it fires..
to me
a real combat/battle rifle is around .30 caliber, is fairly accurate, has legs and is strong enough to endure a little abuse... scratch that, a LOT of abuse.

The AR-15 was a horrible design. IF it wasn't they would not have to perpetually tweak it from the day it entered into service until the present...50+ years later.

I have no problem with plastic on a gun if it is well thought out and rugged.
 
#108 ·
I've been to war with the M16/M4 family (AR design) 3 times, and I wouldn't call it a horrible design.

First off, remember that 5.56 wasn't it's original designed cartridge, although it does do a good job in most circumstances. AND there are other options out there now... at least to civilians.

Secondly, plastic can, and does break in tough hand-to-hand use, (sometimes) but it's not as if there's never been wooden stocks need repair or replacement.

The one weakness I have found is in the buffer system you mention. It doesn't take a lot to tweak it off center (in the collapsible stock designs) to a point were it can cause reliability issues. I will note that it was stronger in the old fixed stock M16A1 variant.

As far as constantly updating it goes, any weapon would have got this had it lived through the same period of technological growth, and constant conflict we've seen during the service span of the M16 family of rifles. The way we fight war has changed, as has the tools we do it with. I don't care if we still were using the M1 Garand, we (the government, and aftermarket companies looking to make money) would have shortened it into some CQB style "tanker" Garand with folding stocks, red dot sights, IR lasers, and weapon mounted lights...
 
#110 ·
The scout rifle is a great concept, I'm sure some folks just don't get it and that's ok. I don't know of anybody (myself included) that calls them self a shooter, gun owner/enthusiast that doesn't own at least one bolt action rifle, though some are loath to admit it, they do the cretins just won't admit it....


Anyway bolt action rifles are so common they're everywhere, you can't walk into a gun shop without seeing a wall of them. So why not avail ones self to a bolt action rifle? and if you do, why not get one that comes closest to meeting your ideal rifle. It's certainly not going to be the only rifle you own, you have others, right?


As a prepper/survivalist or what ever it is we are called these days I have a pretty specific idea of what my ideal bolt action rifle should look like. For me a scout rifle comes closest to achieving that ideal. Is it perfect? not by a long shot, yet it is pretty damn close, besides I have other rifles. The scout just fills the spot in the safe marked bolt action. Quite nicely I might add.
 
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