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Old 10-17-2019, 07:24 PM
~Black.Dog~ ~Black.Dog~ is offline
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When I turned 18 I lived in a state that required 21 for drinking. But I lived near the MD state line and I could go there to hit the bars or buy beer to go.
The law changed to 21 sometime after but since I was already able to I was grandfathered in. Same with when I moved south to VA/WV. I was still legal. I didn't know there were states that made you legal and then illegal again. That sucks.
I think that 18 is a good age for adulthood. If you are old enough to vote and go to war, then you are old enough to decide if you want to buy guns, drink and smoke, too.
I believe that one of the problems we have these days is not making kids be responsible at a younger age. 16 is good for driving but too young for the rest (drinking, military, etc)

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Old 10-18-2019, 04:05 AM
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Could be...then again there's no speed limit in Autobahns and tis fairly common to see cars doing 125mph That, combined with 16 year old drinking age sounds like a recipe for disaster yet they dont have particualrly high traffic fatalities, rather the opposite.
In CA it is pretty common to see vehicles going over 100. Heck I have seen the CHP have enforcement surges where they don't pull over anyone below 100.

What is the driving age in Germany and what is involved in getting a license?

And again, the average American drives WAY more miles then the average European and a higher percentage of Americans are on the road daily.
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Old 10-18-2019, 04:07 AM
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I don't know if it changed but in TX you could drink in a bar at any age if you were married. IIRC the age of consent was 14, possibly 13 with parents permission.
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Old 10-18-2019, 04:23 AM
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Hmm ... That is, a young man can die in battle, but his fighting friends can not drink for the peace of his soul?

On the other hand, the Russian parliament is discussing raising the age of drinking to 21 years (but for drinks, stronger wine).
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Old 10-18-2019, 07:17 PM
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Drinking age was 18 for me, 21 for liquor. Then it went up to 19, then 21. If I remember correct the states changed their laws due to the feds requirement to get fed tax dollars for highways/infrastructure in the 80's. Same as seat belt laws. A bribe if you will.
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Old 10-19-2019, 02:07 PM
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We used to drive across the NY border and hit the bars as it was 18 in NY at the time. Even back then before it became a thing, we had a designated driver. Then MAD stepped up and boom- the drinking was raised again.

That was after Vietnam was over and the draft ended. I was 21 and in in the service so I really didn't pay much attention to it. But the first time I got back to CT, I found out they had done it.

Seemed to me at the time if an 18yo could not drink, they were too immature to vote also but that wasn't changed. Both had happened about the same time. Take away one and leave the other. It seemed wrong.
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Old 10-20-2019, 08:27 PM
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I think the disparity between German & American driving accidents/drunk driving rates is due to several factors...

1. As mentioned, driven mileage per year is a significant factor. Deutschland is a seriously urban/suburban environment, populated by ~80 million, and only about 1/28th the size of the USA. 'Bout the same size as Colorado and Maine combined. You can drive to anywhere in that country and arrive before sundown, unless there's a Stau (massive Autobahn traffic jam). Not that many people do, because...

2. They have a terrific (reliable, fast, affordable) rapid transit rail/bus system that goes to almost all locations (including rural areas). People use it instead of driving for a lot of daily commutes or for trips to distant locations.

3. Gasoline/diesel is frightfully expensive (by American standards). Up to $5.80 a gallon as of Fall 2019. That cuts down on actual annual mileage for most. Driving is an expensive privilege.

4. German kids benefit from a looser tolerance of alcohol at a much younger age (both legally & culturally). By the time most teens start to hit the club circuit, they've been able to drink at home (family meals, outings, festivals, etc.) for years. Many years. There's no great mystery attached to alcohol as a "forbidden fruit". Honestly, they're just better social drinkers than peer group Americans at that age. Less over-indulgence and more previously tested ability to handle it. German kids learn to drink first... then to drive. The opposite of what we do with our kids.

5. Young Germans pay through the nose for expensive (and legally required) Driver's Ed training. Easily $2000 spent before being allowed to obtain a license. That training makes a mockery of most courses in other countries. Among other things, they are required to competently handle Autobahn speeds, superbly handling cars, and a culture disdain for incompetent drivers. Germans regard Driving the way many Americans regard the 2A. As a creator-given Right. They're simply better trained drivers than young Americans. And a sure way to lose that freedom of the road... is to have an alcohol incident while driving. Courts are not very lenient. DUI penalties are pretty severe.

6. Mechanical inspection standards for vehicles are much higher in Germany than in the USA. No rusted out or mechanically unsound Hoopties allowed. You either keep your vehicle in annual inspect-able Autobahn-worthy condition... or you ride the train. People have to spend a lot on their vehicle maintenance, a lot on fuel, and a lot on insurance. They tend to guard their investment by driving competently. Faster than Americans, but generally more competently.

The ironic thing is that all-out Autobahn speeds are mostly a myth these days. The place is so congested with traffic, that speed limits abound. So do traffic jams stretching to the horizon. There are still a few locations where you can wind it out, but fast moving traffic around many big German urban enclaves is about what you'd encounter anywhere else in the world. Just a bit faster on average. Say 90-100 mph instead of 70-80 mph. Or simply bumper-to-bumper at a crawl.

-----------------------

When WWII American hero 1LT Audie Murphy first returned to US shores, he was denied a drink at a bar because he was still under-aged. Medal of Honor, battlefield commissioned combat officer, Infantry Company Commander, etc. But too young to buy a damn drink. Go figure.

If (at 18) you're old enough to vote, get married, drive, buy real estate, run for political office, have your own children, go to war, sign contracts, pay taxes, be employed, or be convicted in court as an adult... you're damn well old enough to drink. Or own/carry a gun for that matter.

In past eras, 18 year old "kids" have reigned over literal kingdoms. It's about how you raise them, not some magical cutoff age. Thousands of years of human history (and biology) says that folks are already adults at 18. Sometimes a lot earlier.

In the modern West, our societies mistakenly extend the legal childhoods of our young people. But have no problem using them as cannon fodder for war. That's a bunch of crap.

Anything an 18 year old fails to do in an adult-like manner is as much a reflection of societal/parental upbringing as it is his/her maturity & experience. Treat people like children and they'll remain children. Demand that they behave as adults... and (in the main) they will. As young as you force them to do so.

I've seen teenagers assume life and death responsibilities, demonstrating fine judgement and steadfast performance under pressure. Also met insufferable 45 year old "adults" who still act like children.

Our societal problems aren't really about things like 18 year old people drinking. They are about failing to train 18 year old people to do so responsibly. And holding them accountable when they screw the pooch.
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Old 10-22-2019, 02:45 PM
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THE BIG difference is..
YOu do NOT turn an 18 year old loose with weapons of war without some serious adult supervision and only after a LOT of serious training on how to deal with weapons of death.

OTHERWISE

an 18 year old with a six pack and no adult supervision and no experience with drinking and access to a vehicle is just a prescription to disaster. That car is a weapon of mass destruction if used incorrectly.

The law change allowing drinking at 18 greatly increased the DUI work load and bar fights and such because you had these newly liberated kids engaging in activity where they thought they were adults and thy couldn't handle it.
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Old 10-23-2019, 10:20 AM
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an 18 year old with a six pack and no adult supervision and no experience with drinking and access to a vehicle is just a prescription to disaster.
Germany and basically evey other country where 18 is the legal age for drinking says otherwise.
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Old 10-23-2019, 10:33 AM
Arch Stanton Arch Stanton is offline
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an 18 year old with a six pack and no adult supervision and no experience with drinking and access to a vehicle is just a prescription to disaster.
Germany and basically evey other country where 18 is the legal age for drinking says otherwise.
Some countries still allow stoning. Just because it’s legal somewhere doesn’t mean it’s smart.
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Old 10-23-2019, 10:53 AM
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I should have included "in Wisconsin, where I live" in my response, because as you say laws change a lot from state to state.
Yep, Wisconsin kids can drink in a bar with their parents, but it is up to bartenders discretion. It's always been that way there.

Unfortunately, many bartenders don't know the law and refuse to serve anyone under 21 even with their parents there.

Here in Arkansas, parents can buy the kids a drink as well, or provide alcohol at home for them.
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Old 10-23-2019, 11:02 AM
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Some countries still allow stoning. Just because itís legal somewhere doesnít mean itís smart.
Yeah, stoning, german kids drinking beer when they are 16 and the rest of the civilized world doing it at 18, same thing. My bad.
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Old 10-23-2019, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
Thats crazy. Makes no sense that you can join the military and go to war but can drink a damn beer at that same age.
The fact that the minimum drinking age is 21 is just stupid. Dont college kids drink? A lot? In Germany, at 16 you can drink both beer and wine, 18 for white spirits.
Depends on what kinds of under-21 people you have around.

People toss around a lot of idyllic stats and factoids about Iceland. It's been described as kind of Utopian ever since I was a kid.

Remember reading once, though, that they're very permissive and enthusiastic about drinking over there. Saw an anecdote about a 13 y.o. spending the night passed out in the street after heavy drinking, lol. Kid woke up safe and unharmed next morning, as expected, and walked home. Thing was, the book where I read this was presenting it as an example of what's common and permissible in Iceland. What's considered very bad in one part of the world is something you don't have to worry about in another.

Now things are changing, though. Iceland is one on the long list of places that are yielding to refugee immigration and diversity. Tragically, I've seen stories about sexual assault and spread of STDs there due to these new people. Might be a smart time to change some rules and customs.

The rules of Eden and the rules for fine, gentle people do not have to be the rules outside of Eden, or the rules for troublesome people.
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Old 10-23-2019, 12:24 PM
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Something else to make you say "Hmmmm" : you can't own or carry a handgun legally until you're 21 but if your MOS is Military Police, you are issued & expected to carry a handgun before you turn 21.

Mark
Arkansas prohibits any person under age 18 from possessing a handgun outside his or her residence or private property.
They can own one, they just can't buy until 21.
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Old 10-23-2019, 03:52 PM
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Something else to make you say "Hmmmm" : you can't own or carry a handgun legally until you're 21 but if your MOS is Military Police, you are issued & expected to carry a handgun before you turn 21.

Mark
Arkansas prohibits any person under age 18 from possessing a handgun outside his or her residence or private property.
They can own one, they just can't buy until 21.
You can buy handguns and short barrel rifles here in Spain when youre 18. My son turns 18 next year and he's already hinting that my HK USP Compact would be a nice present.
If you compete with handguns you can legaly own them when youre 16 in France.
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Old 10-23-2019, 04:10 PM
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18 years old ....only gets you some rights as an adult ...not all rights

If you want to use the same old excuse about 18 year olds can serve in the military.... then maybe all 18 year olds should have to serve.

Most 18 year olds these days are too immature for the rights they have now
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Old 10-23-2019, 04:53 PM
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18 years old ....only gets you some rights as an adult ...not all rights



If you want to use the same old excuse about 18 year olds can serve in the military.... then maybe all 18 year olds should have to serve.



Most 18 year olds these days are too immature for the rights they have now
I think the problem is we don't instill a sense of responsibility anymore.
I was 100% self reliant at 18. Job, car, insurance, home (rental).
I'm not going to claim that everything I did was the smartest thing, running around to bars, psrtying, chasing women and stuff. But I did it all under my own steam and showed up to my job every day.


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Old 10-23-2019, 05:55 PM
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18 years old ....only gets you some rights as an adult ...not all rights

If you want to use the same old excuse about 18 year olds can serve in the military.... then maybe all 18 year olds should have to serve.

Most 18 year olds these days are too immature for the rights they have now
That doesnt make any sense.
Using that logic, NO age would be good enough, you'd have to serve to have the rights of an adult period.
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Old 10-23-2019, 07:04 PM
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That doesnt make any sense.
Using that logic, NO age would be good enough, you'd have to serve to have the rights of an adult period.
What I said makes perfect sense
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Old 10-23-2019, 07:47 PM
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What I said makes perfect sense
I agree. It's crazy because most of the same people arguing for the maturity of 18 year olds and their rights to own guns are the same people flippping out when that age bracket wants to elect Bernie and AOC.
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