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Old 10-21-2019, 03:26 PM
arleigh arleigh is offline
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IMO,
if one lives in a an environment that must interact with potential trouble ,by all means carry the moose gun .
in contrast if you live and work in an environment that virtually has few or no issues it is likely you need nothing more than a mouse gun. not a moose gun.
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Old 10-21-2019, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by arleigh View Post
IMO,
if one lives in a an environment that must interact with potential trouble ,by all means carry the moose gun .
in contrast if you live and work in an environment that virtually has few or no issues it is likely you need nothing more than a mouse gun. not a moose gun.
No need to go to extremes in either direction. Just carry a "deer" gun, and you will likely be covered, mouse to moose, as long as you stay current in your practice.

You never know where or what you will need at any given moment. All you can do is prepare for the best spread, use an accepted, realistic caliber, and keep your skills as sharp as you can.

If you cant get whatever it is youre carrying into action quickly, and make good, repetitive hits, on-demand, and without thinking about doing it, its probably not going to matter too much what youre carrying.
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Old 10-21-2019, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Disturbed70 View Post
"Penetration depths between 14.0-16.0 inches in the gelatin blocks are rewarded while under-penetration and penetration over 18.0 are penalized"

http://www.brassfetcher.com/FBI%20Am...0Protocol.html

"The tests call for a penetration depth of 14-16 inches to score maximum points. Bullets that travel less than 12 or more than 18 inches are penalized in the scoring"

https://www.shootingsportsretailer.c...o-tests-matter

I don't have a shareable copy on official letterhead, but it says the same thing.
See, both of those links are exactly what I was talking about, gun enthusiasts saying the FBI protocol its 12 to 18, but not actually showing the protocol. Which is of course something that absolutely plagues the gun world..(and prepping topics in general) websites that say the same thing over and over again without giving any sources...just feeding off each other to generate content for clicks, each site using the other one as its source.

Now, I'm not saying such a thing may not exist, but its not in FBIHWE, the only mention of over penetration in the entire document is to argue against it as criteria for ammo selection. The 12 minimum, 18 preferred aspect itself is something that is not well explained. Presumable there is some reason its 18 and not 17 or 19 but they never make that clear in that document either.

And if that is indeed the FBI protocol, I would also disagree with it, as it goes against their very own research....although I would not be greatly surprised as its not uncommon at all for the government to research a subject and then ignore their own findings and do something else entirely....ie, the 10mm cartridge was developed as a result of the FBI test......what they actually adopted was the .40 and then 9mm.

This is probably still the truest expression of the then...and current state of terminal ballistic research.

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Old 10-21-2019, 04:52 PM
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If you cant get whatever it is youre carrying into action quickly, and make good, repetitive hits, on-demand, and without thinking about doing it, its probably not going to matter too much what youre carrying.
Indeed. One of the things I like about FBIHWFE is even though it goes into how to cause the most damage with a handgun, it readily admits that caliber or ammo type really doesn't matter most of the time, that most people will fall down when shot in any part of their body, with any kind of bullet.
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Old 10-21-2019, 07:44 PM
Disturbed70 Disturbed70 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerindel View Post
See, both of those links are exactly what I was talking about, gun enthusiasts saying the FBI protocol its 12 to 18, but not actually showing the protocol. Which is of course something that absolutely plagues the gun world..(and prepping topics in general) websites that say the same thing over and over again without giving any sources...just feeding off each other to generate content for clicks, each site using the other one as its source.

Now, I'm not saying such a thing may not exist, but its not in FBIHWE, the only mention of over penetration in the entire document is to argue against it as criteria for ammo selection. The 12 minimum, 18 preferred aspect itself is something that is not well explained. Presumable there is some reason its 18 and not 17 or 19 but they never make that clear in that document either.

And if that is indeed the FBI protocol, I would also disagree with it, as it goes against their very own research....although I would not be greatly surprised as its not uncommon at all for the government to research a subject and then ignore their own findings and do something else entirely....ie, the 10mm cartridge was developed as a result of the FBI test......what they actually adopted was the .40 and then 9mm.

This is probably still the truest expression of the then...and current state of terminal ballistic research.

HWFE is one of hundreds of documents on the subject by the FBI, et al. It is a topic that is constantly being studied, and HWFE is not the definitive work on the topic. It is merely an easily-understood synopsis of what was understood at the time of publication.

Subsequent study has further-validated the document. However, it was not a primer on how to conduct testing, or "grade" such testing. That is found in the official Protocol documentation, which does indeed say exactly what the above quotes say.

It doesn't contradict itself, as the purpose of the Protocol is basically to find the "perfect" round (which doesn't exist). HWFE merely lays out why the methodologies of the Protocol are in place, and why other factors are not considered.
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Old 10-23-2019, 08:25 AM
whirlibird whirlibird is offline
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Originally Posted by Aerindel View Post
...ie, the 10mm cartridge was developed as a result of the FBI test......what they actually adopted was the .40 and then 9mm.
Points of fact.

The 10mm was developed and publicly released in 1983 by Norma.

The FBI didn't adopt the 10mm until 1989 and had nothing to do with the development. Granted the Fed-Lite loading was developed at their request thanks to agents who could not handle recoil and the decreased firearm longevity using full charge ammunition.

As an aside, the 1076 I had was one of the best handguns I've ever owned.

Back to the intent of the OP (as I see it).
All things being equal, the bigger bullet does more damage, as it "touches " more flesh.
Expanding bullets touch more flesh, with rougher surfaces, doing more damage.
Expanding bullets expend their "energy" within the target creating larger surface area, therefore touching and damaging more flesh.

A .45 ball round will generally punch right through the target making a pencil hole sized wound track.
A decent .45 hollow point (and others) can often be found expanded and at rest in the skin layer or clothing on the off side of the target. Having expended its energy expanding within the target.

Another view of this can be found in the NYPD shooting reports. When the NYPD adopted the 9mm, the Police Chief, Willie Bratton in the 1990's refused to allow his officers to use hollow points, despite the reduced risks to the citizens.
The number of shots needed to stop the bad guys increased and the already dismal results of using the .38 flatnose were quickly overshadowed by the ineffective ball ammunition. This is about the time that NYPD really saw the increase in mag dump shootings by its officers.

Choose your ammunition and firearms according to your needs, not the needsof a group of lawyers in the cities. What may be ideal for NY, Baltimore and Miami, is likely not going to be the same as rural Wyoming, Maine or Alaska.
When you are dealing with Carhartt jackets, insulated vests, and three or more layers of insulation, you choose a different bullet (and cartridge) than you would if you lived in Miami.

However the overwhelming choice of people who have had to use a handgun for defense is a good JHP. Are there statistical anomalies? Of course, Aerindel you yourself are one of them.

Rough numbers:
80% of people shot with a handgun survive.
80% of people shot with rifles do not.

But the question is not, did they die but did they stop doing what they were doing to cause you to shoot them?

In the case of my last department, we carried .45's. Because of our needs, shooting a large number of injured animals rather than bad guys facilitated using something other than the 9mm for example. The heavy winter work clothing was another factor in that choice.
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Old 10-23-2019, 07:52 PM
Arch Stanton Arch Stanton is online now
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Originally Posted by AK103K View Post
No need to go to extremes in either direction. Just carry a "deer" gun, and you will likely be covered, mouse to moose, as long as you stay current in your practice.

You never know where or what you will need at any given moment. All you can do is prepare for the best spread, use an accepted, realistic caliber, and keep your skills as sharp as you can.

If you cant get whatever it is youre carrying into action quickly, and make good, repetitive hits, on-demand, and without thinking about doing it, its probably not going to matter too much what youre carrying.
How do you feel about .32 mag?
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Old 10-23-2019, 09:36 PM
leadmagnet leadmagnet is offline
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Handguns or rifles and regardless of the caliber, it has ALWAYS been about shot placement. If you think otherwise you've just been fooling yourself.
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Old 10-24-2019, 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted by drray777 View Post
I found the following article to be very interesting. I tried to see if it was posted here before, but could not find it.

http://www.activeresponsetraining.ne...stopping-power
My issue with data of this nature is that you cannot exclude/separate psychology and chemicals. I prefer to use hunting data from numerous wildlife management agencies that compile it vs. "data on people" for this reason. A ****ed off alpha personality is less likely to stop than a scared beta personality. I've read stories about cops collapsing from gunshots that never even hit them. I've read stories of people being unaffected by over a dozen rounds of .45 ACP to the torso. I've personally seen examples of both type scenario.

Now animals...within a species, those are much less variable, and much less likely to do meth. I feel the data is more "pure".

Also, considering stopping power arguments with handguns and the like...ever hear of a southern White Tail going 50+ yards after being hit with a .30-06 through the pump house? I'd say its common enough. They weigh 150-200#. About what an average adult male SHOULD weigh. What, exactly, is your 9mm doing to do that a .30-06 somehow fails to do?

P for Plenty, and hope/try for the processor. Those are the GSW's that I see STOP people. That said, I don't see rifle or shotgun GSW's typically. Those are for the coroner. They are absolutely more devastating than handguns. However, that's not to say they are for sure going to drop someone like a sack of bricks. Remember, stopped immediately does not mean dead, and dead does not mean stopped immediately.
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Old 10-24-2019, 07:50 AM
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Bullets work in three ways;
1. Letting the blood out denies the brain the oxygen it needs to function. Takes a while. Up to a minute or more.
2. Breaking things. Damage the body to the extent that it can't (or parts) can't function. Brain/spinal shots are a good example. Generally results in an immediate cessation of action. Generally.
3. OW! That ****in' hurts, I think I'll stop doing that. LOL. Its not that they CAN'T continue to fight, they make a conscious decision to stop.

Bigger bullets make bigger holes. Expanding bullets do this and have the added effect of not passing through the body thus imparting the full measure of their force. Faster crashes harder. Somewhere north of 1100FPS you begin to see "hydrostatic shock". Gelatin illustrates this clearly; passing through the high speed bullet creates a temporary cavity that will literally throw the block off the table. Or break the table. LOL, I've seen that with rifle rounds that start with a number over over #2 and shotgun slugs. Mmmmmm. Slo-mo photography is pretty cool. Youtube it and see for yourself.

People ain't gelatin. They have structures inside the body of varying density and elasticity. Lung shots that do not strike the CNS, bone or other vital structures might not even be noticible to the shootee. Same goes for earlobe hits, finger shots and such.

In order to be effective you have to strike a vital area and cause 1, 2 or 3.

Gelatin testing is merely a baseline test to gauge the penetration and expansion of bullets and enable the tester to gauge the effectiveness of their performance through common structures that people like to "hide" behind. Nothing more. The FBI protocol has minimum standards for retained weight, penetration and so on but any bullet that does 1, 2 or 3 is effective. Those are things jello isn't going to show you.

Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow's data is still valid today. No, it is not the do all/end all but it was better than the computer modeling DOJ used back then or shooting into phonebooks, water jugs, clay and the like. Massad Ayoob's conclusions are also valid. Everbody gots an opinion these days but the bottom line never changes.

Select an expanding round that works as in reliability. Works 100% in YOUR equipment. Select a caliber you can control and shoot effectively and accurately. Bullets made today are better engineered than those of even ten years ago. Progress through science.

Bring enough gun. If you're going to a fight **** that handgun ****, have a long gun. And ammo. And friends. Sharing is caring.
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Old 10-24-2019, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
There's a point of diminishing returns in which fast, light, low recoil, easy to shoot, isnt effective enough as say, something bigger, more powerful and with greater recoil. I think that the mantra of "shoot the biggest caliber you can shoot fast and accurately" is where its at. For me thats 357SIG, and 40S&W or 9mm also being ok in my book. For obvious reasons such as cost of ammo, availabilty, I'm happpy enough with 9mm and 357 magnum for revolvers.
I just have a bit of a hard time believing that, all things being equal, a 32ACP will be more effective than a 44 magnum. logic, not to mention hunting, clearly says othewise.
I'd say there's probably a little more to consider aside from that mantra, IMO. Practicality also plays a factor in caliber/firearm choice. For example, I typically shoot 9mm, but play with 45, 40, and 380 as well. When picking a CCW for the day, the practicality of carrying the firearm is heavily involved. If it's 95 degrees outside, I'm gonna wear thinner clothes, so the 380 is going to be my choice for the day. If it's 33 degrees and I know I'm gonna be wearing a coat, I may opt for something larger like my full-sized 9mm. Ultimately, unless I'm opting for open-carry (where legal), my caliber and firearm are going to be determined by more than my shooting comfort level.

Size of the individual firearm comes into play, even across the same caliber. I (as well as many others) am more comfortable shooting a 45 or a 9mm out of a larger-framed gun than trying to shoot it out of something I can stuff in a leg holster. That's just ergonomics of the gun. Not to say there aren't smaller guns that are easy to shoot, but I just don't think saying "pick the largest caliber you can effectively shoot" addresses the entire issue. I mean, I can comfortably shoot a .308, but you won't spot that in my waistband holster any time soon.
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Old 10-24-2019, 03:22 PM
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Stopping power = shooting until the threat is stopped. That may be one shot or many shots regardless of caliber used
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Old 10-24-2019, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Arch Stanton View Post
How do you feel about .32 mag?
No feelings. Dont really know anything about them.
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Old 10-25-2019, 06:44 PM
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A few 9mm rounds tested with Paul Harrell's "meat target".

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Old 10-28-2019, 08:24 AM
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Thanks everyone for all the responses, I did not expect it.

FWIW, being a surgeon, I have taken care of many GSWs in my career. I have found that handgun injuries can do damage beyond what one might expect. I saw one young boy early in my practice in Kansas City who was shot in the arm by a .38. He had complete fallout of his radial nerve with wrist drop. I explored him surgically fully expecting to see a severed nerve, but it was completely intact. The bullet had passed nearby and caused enough trauma to the nerve that it stopped working.

Another interesting case that I have posted before, was one I had was when I was in general surgical training and in charge of the surgical ER at Hopkins in Baltimore. We had a cop come into essentially DOA but for the sake of the other guys who brought him in, I cracked his chest so that we could say we did everything possible to save him I and found a hole through the heart. I could not do anything. I had to call it and pronounced him dead. They told me he was shot at point blank range with a 9mm. It went through his kevlar vest and into his heart. He collapsed on the spot they said. This gave me a new respect for guns and how much damage one well placed shot can do.

One other case that sticks out in my mind was a young women that came in DOA to Parkland hospital ER when I rotated through there as a medical student. The police shot her one time in the neck severing her carotid artery. She died very quickly as well they said.

I saw a couple of cases of people shot with high velocity weapons in the past few years since I have been here in South Africa. A couple of guys shot with a misfiring antiaircraft gun. They had parts of their extremities blown off but survived and were awake and alert. Others in the group were not so fortunate.

A recent case of a guy shot through the leg with an AK-47 would have downed him immediately because it broke both leg bones and he could not walk, but survived.

I second the votes for shot placement, regardless of the weapon.
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Old 10-28-2019, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by PalmettoTree View Post
I agree. I have always argued against bigger is better for every gun owner.

If ability and execution are equal what else makes a difference? That I thought was the purpose of the discussion.

The human element IS what makes the difference. Because there isn't all that much difference between the various defensive calibers and handguns. Even if we all could agree, it wouldn't change things one iota. So yeah, it really does come down to shot placement. That's it! and yes, it really is that simple.
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