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Old 10-12-2019, 08:51 AM
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Default The AR15 Does Not Have A Receiver And The ATF Knows It



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The AR15 , AR10, AR308 do not have receivers and the ATF knows it.
You could sell lowers with no 4473
No, I will not be the Crash Test Dummy, but someone already volunteered and prevailed
Did a lot of "bad" things

Judge did something that is unfortunately rare.
Applied the facts to the law or applied the law to the facts
As it should be
Took the judge a year to issue his decision
He may have hated deciding as he did but possibly an honest and decent man/judge
I have had many cases that ended up in Judge Selna's courtroom
Pleasently surprised in retrospect

The ATF will still try and crush you, but that shows that the ATF does not care about the law
That is sad but typical with our cubicle-worker over-lords

Most interesting
Hate using CNN for anything
The Dems will "fix" this, the bad kind of fix, as soon as they are in control

"He sold illegal AR-15s. Feds agreed to let him go free to avoid hurting gun control efforts"

By Scott Glover, CNN
Updated 7:07 PM EDT, Fri October 11, 2019

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/11/us/ar...nvs/index.html
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Old 10-12-2019, 09:11 AM
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Meh. Like its former sister agancy, the IRS, they think they ARE the law, even if the actual law says otherwise, or doesnt even exist.

The important thing is, "WE" "think" what they say is law, and they have the power to enforce it.

Thats been going on for nearly a century now, and only keeps getting worse.

But hey, its Octoberfest and football season is upon us, who has time to worry or care about "rights"? Eh?
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Old 10-12-2019, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
The AR15 , AR10, AR308 do not have receivers and the ATF knows it.
You to put down the pipe. They have an upper AND lower receiver...
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Old 10-12-2019, 10:46 AM
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The lower was considered the reggied part since it accepted the magazine or feed device. With the FAL it's the upper, feed device and barrel. There are anomalies to this rule.
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Old 10-12-2019, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by DG23 View Post
You to put down the pipe. They have an upper AND lower receiver...
Did you even read the article?
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Old 10-12-2019, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
The lower was considered the reggied part since it accepted the magazine or feed device.
Read the article - it's about the context of what the federal law actually classifies as a receiver, where it's talking about "bolt, breechblock or threads that accept a barrel", along those lines. If the ruling was enforced, 90% of current firearms wouldn't actually fit the letter of the law.
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Old 10-12-2019, 11:40 AM
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Did you even read the article?
Nope. He read your thread title and commented on that alone.
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Old 10-12-2019, 12:24 PM
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I'm reading "Roh, Ruling on R 29 Motion" on Scribd. Check it out: https://www.scribd.com/doc/429889179

I could not get ruling off Pacer Docket as it was a Tentative Ruling
If you have Scribd you can read it

Essentially, the Court would have found him guilty of the illegal sale of firearms
Court acquitted him of illegally manufacturing AR15 receivers receivers
So they reach a plea deal and brushed it under the rug
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Old 10-12-2019, 12:28 PM
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All gun laws are un-constitutional period.
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Old 10-12-2019, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
So they reach a plea deal and brushed it under the rug
And it sounded an awful lot like some of the IRS "deals" in the past, made after the fact, and even when the jury found the defendant "innocent" of the charges.

Cant have us believing that they really DONT have the authority, and things get out of hand, and they might lose control.


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All gun laws are un-constitutional period.
Yea, no ****! So why do we have so many?
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Old 10-13-2019, 05:44 PM
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So when is the ATF gonna refund my FFL transfer fees for lower receivers? They should be on the hook for that.
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Old 10-13-2019, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
I'm reading "Roh, Ruling on R 29 Motion" on Scribd. Check it out: https://www.scribd.com/doc/429889179

I could not get ruling off Pacer Docket as it was a Tentative Ruling
If you have Scribd you can read it

Essentially, the Court would have found him guilty of the illegal sale of firearms
Court acquitted him of illegally manufacturing AR15 receivers receivers
So they reach a plea deal and brushed it under the rug
I was just coming to post on this crock of **** that the ATF just pulled. Sad/funny that they pick and chose which laws they want to accept too further enforce weapons legal and law-abiding citizens can have.

Thanks for posting.
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Old 10-13-2019, 09:49 PM
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I cannot get the article to load, I will have to try later on the desktop. This is of particular interest since the NY AG sent out 16 illegal cease and desist letters to companies that sell 80% lowers.
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Old 10-13-2019, 10:55 PM
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I cannot get the article to load, I will have to try later on the desktop. This is of particular interest since the NY AG sent out 16 illegal cease and desist letters to companies that sell 80% lowers.
It is right on point
That is why this got buried at the trial court level when Judge Selna found that that was no receiver even if it has a serial number
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Old 10-13-2019, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
It is right on point
That is why this got buried at the trial court level when Judge Selna found that that was no receiver even if it has a serial number
Yep. No real precedent established by his court, and no appeal or review either. Just a harshly worded memo to the ATF guys.
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Old 10-14-2019, 02:24 AM
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In a bizarre way I sometimes pity individual ATF guys. They have to take a law that a bonehead politician made and actually make it work in a way that seems consistent and conventional. Remember Pelosi's line about needing to pass it so we can understand it later?

Sorry, no pity for the agency. If they couldn't find a way to use a law as written and be consistently sane and realistic about it then they should have kicked it back to the morons that invented the law.

Sucks that a political appointee ends up with a burden that weighty, but they took the paycheck. The agency troops as a group had a burden to make the appointee understand the flaws and inconsistencies. The appointee should have fired all of them if they didn't tell him of the problem and should be fired himself if he didn't walk it back to lawmakers as hopelessly unworkable. This general rule should apply to all government agencies.

Before you think me sympathetic to any gun laws, I'm of the position that the first Congress wanted the citizenry to own the equal of any top of the line war weapon. If found to own a brace of cannon or a man-o-war ship of the line, the citizen got a government job offer -- not an ATF visit. If George Washington knew a Philly merchant with a platoon of Sherman tanks or a Chatanooga plantation owner with a company of AK armed dragoons then there would not have been any kind of talk about the ownership other than how much gold was wanted for a 90 day service contract.


The power of the sword, say the minority..., is in the hands of Congress. My friends and countrymen, it is not so, for the powers of the sword are in the hands of the yeomanry of America from sixteen to sixty. The militia of these free commonwealths, entitled and accustomed to their arms, when compared with any possible army, must be tremendous and irresistible. Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress has no power to disarm the militia. Their swords and every terrible implement of the soldier are the birthright of Americans.

- Tench Coxe, 1787 Continental Congressman.


Go ahead, you congressional morons, and try making another law. A week later a bright guy will engineer a new work-around. The AR was an almost dead end military weapon after the first Gulf War. Clinton's gun ban energized the weapon's civilian development and gave us the M4 ultimately, in spite of both laws and the slacker generals. The citizens invented and the low rank troops tinkered with their weapons even though the generals threatened to punish the troops that did that. By 9/11 the troops at the bottom had won over the generals.

We will not be disarmed or found wanting for militia weapons. It's our ground and we will defend it. **** off.
- me, today.

Maybe if Congress realized this they might quit inflaming impressionable young liberals to go on crime sprees and leave the teaching job to rational and mature militia citizens.
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Old 10-14-2019, 06:29 AM
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The BATFE is blinded by their absurd focus on "parts" of a firearm. Had they just focused on Roh's accessory with providing prohibited persons with firearms, it would have made more "enforcement" sense. This is why that whole branch needs to go; they simply don't care about protecting the public from criminals, they simply focus on convoluted, contradicting technical definitions to trap citizens. I'm sure this Roh guy isn't a saint, but it's not his manufacturing of parts that was the problem yet that becomes the focus. For once, it's nice to see the ATF get caught in their own contradictory language. Interesting case none-the-less.

ROCK6
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Old 10-14-2019, 07:37 AM
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It is a good article. Well worth reading.

It looks like Roh managed to skate on important technicalities several times.
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Old 10-14-2019, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by HomeDefense View Post
It is a good article. Well worth reading.

It looks like Roh managed to skate on important technicalities several times.
Dude had ice-water in his veins and giant brass-ones
When the Feds get involved, me, I would listen
Glad there are those with more fortitude than I do
A lot of wrongs need to be put right

Last edited by Jack Swilling; 10-14-2019 at 08:42 AM..
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Old 10-14-2019, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DG23 View Post
You to put down the pipe. They have an upper AND lower receiver...
read the article, and the federal definition before opening your mouth.
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