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Old 10-15-2019, 03:53 AM
Stalagna Stalagna is offline
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Here's my take on the whole deal...

In the civilized world, there is this unknown yet magic number of shots that you need to stay under if you defend yourself with a fire arm. Shoot (even an intruder) too many times and you could be in a large amount of trouble. This is where the fancy ammo comes into play, to neutralize a target in say 5 rounds or less (or the famous 3 seconds everyone talks about).

Now in a truly SHTF scenario, there is no magic number, you could shoot until empty, reload and do the same over and over again. In this situation, FMJ should work just fine.

I try to keep enough of the fancy stuff around for any immediate needs, but for long term SHTF, it's all FMJ for me. I'd rather have 1000 rounds of FMJ instead of 250 of the fancy stuff...
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Old 10-15-2019, 04:41 AM
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I load my handguns with hollow points. Right now I’m using Sig Defensive ammo. I’ve seen it do ok in gel and it’s inexpensive. Plus all my 9mm guns shoot it well. I have a small supply. should SHTF I will certainly use the defensive ammo first.

I have a stockpile of 9mm FMJ to use as a backup and/or for practice shooting. But the odds of my using my pistol in SHTF are actually lower than my odds of using my rifle I would think. Under safe conditions I’m not likely to carry an ar15 everywhere I go. Post SHTF I am.

My rifle ammo for my AR is 5.56 FMJ a either 55 or 62 grain. Not as good as modern hunting loads BUT will likely stop a fight.
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Old 10-15-2019, 02:50 PM
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I have a fair amount of JHP for both .45ACP and 9mm, but my current home/self defense ammo is middle-of-the-road defensive stuff such as XTP and Golden Saber 9mm, and Magtech bonded .45ACP. I do own a box or two of other stuff, but most of that was bought simply because the price was right and I was curious if it would function OK. However, my SHTF "stockpile" for both calibers is Remington UMC JHP, because it was cheap, and purchased on grounds that I'll take a JHP that might expand versus an FMJ that definitely won't. If I've managed to burn through all my "good" handgun ammo and am stuck with just the Remington, I'm doing pretty well for myself.
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Old 10-15-2019, 03:08 PM
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THE "magic number" to shoot someone trying to harm you IS:

Until the threat is Stopped...........in most states (free states) either the shoot is justified or not, if it was the number of rounds fired likely is not going to matter, you being alive to explain WHY you shot "X" number of times though may matter . In my state there can be no civil suit filed for a justified shoot, the defense laws are clear and the State Supreme court ruled a long time ago "A Kentuckian never runs, he doesn't have to"

As to what "I" carry

in 9mm 147 grain HST
in .40 155-165 grain HST (have both and load them...we have a few .40s)
in .45 mostly 230 PDX1

I've found these to seem to be the best in most situations I'm likely to call on them; since my LC9S is short tubed and often a bug (or when I can't easily carry a bigger one) the heavier bullet is the best choice IMO
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Old 10-15-2019, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basketweave View Post

Hollow points will probably punch a larger hole but...the penetration needs to be sufficient. If it wasn't in a particular incident, flat nose would have been better.

How many grains were the WWB hollow points the man was shot with? How large was the man?

How large was the man who was hit with .45 fmj rounds?
The thing with WWB HP is that they don't expand as big as say, a Gold Dot or HST, so they tend to penetrate better. This being a generalization based on a lot of YouTube, and a little unscientific personal testing.
On the flip side, they are more likely to clog and not expand at all, turning your JHP into a FP-FMJ.

The fellow in the autopsy was shot with 147gr bullets. His weight was ~210lbs. Road crew worker, got caught up in a love triangle with his GF's meth dealer. He was unconscious after being shot, and survived for about 15 minutes. Ambulance took 45 to get there.

The fellow in the 45 instance was about 160lbs. Again, he lingered for a while, but was not fighting back.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
Shot placement skill is great , it is absolute and maybe a microbial fraction size of folks on the planet can deliver that perfect placement when it really matters... so how do you give yourself more fudge factor, bigger diameter and heavier bullets, translating to more energy giving a better chance at coming out on the successful end.

I saw people dead and dying from just about every round found in the US and some were impressive, such as a 12ga slug at the base of the skull . That was a one shot stopper.

Conversely a buddy on another department shot a rather large African gentleman just above the nose from ohhhhhh about 3 feet as the same gentleman was ready to cut him from crotch to neck with a straight razor. The guy flopped onto his back, my friend rady to call for dead animal pickup when he noticed the "dead guy" was still breathing. A trip to the hospital confirmed he was not only alive, but he was much better than he should have been. The .38spcl 158gr rnl had run between the skull and the scalp and lodged at the back of the head, flattened out like a quarter. THe ER put a bandaid front and back and sent him to jail.

Another bud , a sgt in another jurisdiction put 5 .357 145gr HPs into a guy at a Dom Vi. All inside the 8 ring, at about 12 feet. THe guy dropped his shotgun and turned and went back into his house. While ES Team was being summoned, the shootee was feeling some discomfort and decided he should seek medical attention. He walked back out and gave himself up. This over the span of about 20 minutes. The guy had 10 holes in him, 5 in the front and 5 out the back. ALL that energy was lost due to over penetration. HE LIVED.

If there are other options out there... I see no reason to bet my life on a .3anything when I can have a .45. Just prudent planning.
I knew a guy who survived a self-inflicted 44spl to the temple(4"bbl). I also watched someone kill herself with a 38spl fmj in the same place (j-frame 2"bbl). Humans are weird that way.

I like Clint Smith from Thunder Ranch's line. "Handguns poke holes in people. Rifles put holes through people. A shotgun will physically remove a piece of them and throw that stuff on the floor, and you have to get someone to come clean it up with a shovel."
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Old 10-18-2019, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian View Post
XTPs are the least expanding bullets on the market. Buy them. The next guy who owns your gun after you are deceased will spend a few dollars more on ammo.
Incorrect. XTP's expand fine for a cup and core bullet design. I've been reloading and shooting them for years.
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Old 10-19-2019, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
He had 5 holes going in and 5 holes leaving. He had intestines hit, one lung, stomach .. he was pretty messed up. He would have died according to the docs if he had made his getaway to seek revenge. The blood bubble in his mouth sort of gave it away. Why I am not a big fan of 9mms especially with HB.

Basically, being able to hit well is the most important thing, but also honestly not everyone can practice to where they can be Auric Goldfinger with his .25 " I shoot at the right eye Mr. Bond, and I never miss."

Shot placement skill is great , it is absolute and maybe a microbial fraction size of folks on the planet can deliver that perfect placement when it really matters... so how do you give yourself more fudge factor, bigger diameter and heavier bullets, translating to more energy giving a better chance at coming out on the successful end.

I saw people dead and dying from just about every round found in the US and some were impressive, such as a 12ga slug at the base of the skull . That was a one shot stopper.

Conversely a buddy on another department shot a rather large African gentleman just above the nose from ohhhhhh about 3 feet as the same gentleman was ready to cut him from crotch to neck with a straight razor. The guy flopped onto his back, my friend rady to call for dead animal pickup when he noticed the "dead guy" was still breathing. A trip to the hospital confirmed he was not only alive, but he was much better than he should have been. The .38spcl 158gr rnl had run between the skull and the scalp and lodged at the back of the head, flattened out like a quarter. THe ER put a bandaid front and back and sent him to jail.

Another bud , a sgt in another jurisdiction put 5 .357 145gr HPs into a guy at a Dom Vi. All inside the 8 ring, at about 12 feet. THe guy dropped his shotgun and turned and went back into his house. While ES Team was being summoned, the shootee was feeling some discomfort and decided he should seek medical attention. He walked back out and gave himself up. This over the span of about 20 minutes. The guy had 10 holes in him, 5 in the front and 5 out the back. ALL that energy was lost due to over penetration. HE LIVED.

If there are other options out there... I see no reason to bet my life on a .3anything when I can have a .45. Just prudent planning.
Bowing to your phenomenal experience in shooting investigations, I'm still not quite sure about your criticisms of over penetration in "3" calibers vs "4" calibers, since the 4's are quite capable of through and through penetration. .45 ball in particular, commonly will do just that, often after glancing off bone. I have seen it personally, and read many reports of it's similar performance.

But the over penetration issue, just isn't. No additional damage is done by pistol projectiles remaining in a human's body rather than exiting. There is no "energy dump" or any other magic process done by pistol bullets. That's a myth. They poke holes. That's it.

.
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Old 10-20-2019, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by HappyinID View Post
Bowing to your phenomenal experience in shooting investigations, I'm still not quite sure about your criticisms of over penetration in "3" calibers vs "4" calibers, since the 4's are quite capable of through and through penetration. .45 ball in particular, commonly will do just that, often after glancing off bone. I have seen it personally, and read many reports of it's similar performance.

I'm guessing you are referring to round nose ball .45 caliber. Am I correct? Flat nose .45 cal ball is more inclined to cut through bone.

I was going to wonder out loud why most .45 cal ammo out there other than hollow points are round nose, unlike flat nose like .40 S&W fmj. I guess that answer is the round nose profile feeds well in the 1911 platform, which is popular.
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Old 10-20-2019, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basketweave View Post
I'm guessing you are referring to round nose ball .45 caliber. Am I correct? Flat nose .45 cal ball is more inclined to cut through bone.

I was going to wonder out loud why most .45 cal ammo out there other than hollow points are round nose, unlike flat nose like .40 S&W fmj. I guess that answer is the round nose profile feeds well in the 1911 platform, which is popular.
Because lots of old 45's will only work reliably with round nose ammo.
The 40's tend to have better feed ramp geometry since they were designed for modern ammo, unlike the 1911 Colt.
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Old 10-20-2019, 07:14 AM
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Neither. I don't even currently own a 9mm anymore. I've been wanting to get some 9mm conversion barrels for my Glock's in 40 cal but never seem to get around to it. Most of the factory ammo I buy is budget stuff whether Winchester White Box, & similar budget lines form Rem., Fed, CCI, etc. as well as PPU & Perfecta. Most of the domestic offerings are available in both FMJ & HP. All the PPU I have is JHP & the Perfecta is all FMJ. I reload a wide variety of bullet types & weights from 155grain up to 210 for 40 cal. My EDC for years now has been Hornady Critical Duty, but I also stock some Remington Golden Saber, Speer Gold Dot, & a few other odd boxes here & there of some premium stuff, but mainly for that stuff it's just the Critical Duty & Golden Saber.
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Old 10-20-2019, 08:03 AM
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If I were to go back to .45acp, and not use an expanding bullet, Id go with an SWC type bullet over a RN or RNFP.

They will run fine in an older 1911 thats had a T&P, and usually fine in some of the newer guns with proper throating. Still, 1911's are finicky, and Id have the "reliability package" done on any I was going to carry, new or old.

In other guns, they normally arent an issue at all.

The advantage is the same as any of the other calibers using them. You have a full caliber, sharp shoulder that cuts.
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Old 10-20-2019, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basketweave View Post
I'm guessing you are referring to round nose ball .45 caliber. Am I correct? Flat nose .45 cal ball is more inclined to cut through bone.

I was going to wonder out loud why most .45 cal ammo out there other than hollow points are round nose, unlike flat nose like .40 S&W fmj. I guess that answer is the round nose profile feeds well in the 1911 platform, which is popular.
I agree with your assessment. An even better design is the age old H&G 68 hard cast semi-wadcutter. No magic required as it cuts a full 45 caliber hole going in and coming out...smashing bone in between if encountered. These are inexpensive to shoot and can be cast at home. I have several .45 acp handguns including a Glock 30SF. All feed them fine.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2046539567
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Old 10-20-2019, 09:31 AM
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I agree with your assessment. An even better design is the age old H&G 68 hard cast semi-wadcutter. No magic required as it cuts a full 45 caliber hole going in and coming out...smashing bone in between if encountered. These are inexpensive to shoot and can be cast at home. I have several .45 acp handguns including a Glock 30SF. All feed them fine.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2046539567
For those in 45acp 200grain they are $70/500 (14 cents/rnd), for the same price you can get copper plated in the same style.

https://www.berrysmfg.com/product/bp-45-452-200gr-swc

Or if someone is looking for "magic" they could try these for only $85/500 (17 cents/rnd) not that much more expensive.

https://www.berrysmfg.com/product/bp-45-452-200gr-hhp

Not to mention several other designs for the same $70/500. It's also not recommended to shoot bare lead through Glocks.

https://www.berrysmfg.com/product/bp-45-452-200gr-hbfp

https://www.berrysmfg.com/product/bp-45-452-200gr-rs

https://www.berrysmfg.com/product/bp-45-452-200gr-thp

https://www.berrysmfg.com/product/bp-45-452-200gr-fp

https://www.berrysmfg.com/product/bp-45-452-200gr-rn

That's just one place. I don't have a problem with bare lead, but if I'm going to shoot it, it's cause I can buy it much cheaper than copper plated or copper jacketed. If there is little to no price difference, I'll pass on the bare lead, but that's me.
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Old 10-20-2019, 10:19 AM
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HP or FMJ doesnt matter to me as long as my guns shoot it.....but high capacity mags do matter to me
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Old 10-20-2019, 11:49 AM
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Lot of people shooting lead through Glocks
Watch for leading
I only have two Glocks
Gen 3 G20s
I shoot coated lead
Zero issues
With the right alloy, and a decent meplat, it smashes things with 200 plus grain bullets
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Old 10-20-2019, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
Lot of people shooting lead through Glocks
Watch for leading
I only have two Glocks
Gen 3 G20s
I shoot coated lead
Zero issues
With the right alloy, and a decent meplat, it smashes things with 200 plus grain bullets
Also, the Gen 5 Glocks switched rifling, so are allegedly not as bad with lead bullets.
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Old 10-20-2019, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Disturbed70 View Post
Also, the Gen 5 Glocks switched rifling, so are allegedly not as bad with lead bullets.
Still lead not recommended for G5s

But, again many people are shooting lead in Glocks
Watch for leading
Know what you are doing
No problem
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Old 10-20-2019, 04:15 PM
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The cheapest HP 9mm ammo I stock is the Zero 125 Hp's from Rose Distribution.

Other than that it would be cases of Hornady XTP's and a metric ton of speer GDots in 115, 124 and 148 grains. Cant have too many Gold dots in any variety.

As cheap as 9mm projectiles are I am not wasting the effort to load or stock lead or ball anything and to heck with factory ammo when I can roll my own with the same components for much, much less.
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Old 10-20-2019, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by svxak47 View Post
HP or FMJ doesnt matter to me as long as my guns shoot it.....but high capacity mags do matter to me
For real... If SHTF and I am limited to a 9mm it will be a full size Beretta with 17rnd mags + 1 in the chamber. 18 chances to deal with the problem before needing to reload...
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Old 10-20-2019, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billwilla View Post
For those in 45acp 200grain they are $70/500 (14 cents/rnd), for the same price you can get copper plated in the same style.

https://www.berrysmfg.com/product/bp-45-452-200gr-swc

Or if someone is looking for "magic" they could try these for only $85/500 (17 cents/rnd) not that much more expensive.

https://www.berrysmfg.com/product/bp-45-452-200gr-hhp

Not to mention several other designs for the same $70/500. It's also not recommended to shoot bare lead through Glocks.

https://www.berrysmfg.com/product/bp-45-452-200gr-hbfp

https://www.berrysmfg.com/product/bp-45-452-200gr-rs

https://www.berrysmfg.com/product/bp-45-452-200gr-thp

https://www.berrysmfg.com/product/bp-45-452-200gr-fp

https://www.berrysmfg.com/product/bp-45-452-200gr-rn

That's just one place. I don't have a problem with bare lead, but if I'm going to shoot it, it's cause I can buy it much cheaper than copper plated or copper jacketed. If there is little to no price difference, I'll pass on the bare lead, but that's me.
Copper washed or plated is a way to go if you prefer. However they don't have the full diameter "sharp" shoulder the H&G design has...such as these. https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.c...lead-500-count

Or such as what I posted earlier. Plated bullets all have a more rounded shoulder which doesn't cut a perfect hole like cast or or the linked swaged. I prefer the sharp shoulder of the original H&G design...personal preference.

Or these: http://www.georgia-arms.com/452-200gr-semi-wadcutter/
I only linked the original Midway site to show the design of the H&G. You can shop for better prices for cast...but you like Berrys...personal choices.

Or these with free shipping: https://www.evergladesammo.com/bulle...stomer-reviews
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