Flat nose 9mm or Cheap hollow point 9mm for SHTF? - Page 2 - Survivalist Forum
Survivalist Forum

Advertise Here

Go Back   Survivalist Forum > > >
Articles Classifieds Donations Gallery Groups Links Store Survival Files


Notices

Advertise Here
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-13-2019, 12:51 AM
Aerindel's Avatar
Aerindel Aerindel is offline
Abnormality biased.
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Nuevo Alamo
Posts: 5,688
Thanks: 6,911
Thanked 13,349 Times in 4,315 Posts
Default



Advertise Here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian View Post
Last time I checked, all hollowpoint ammo for the military was outlawed by the Geneva Convention to which the USA is a signatory.
Seesh....I can't believe people still think this. It was wrong 20 years ago and its still wrong now.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Aerindel For This Useful Post:
Old 10-13-2019, 08:39 AM
Jack Swilling's Avatar
Jack Swilling Jack Swilling is offline
VIP Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 3,035
Thanks: 4,903
Thanked 6,885 Times in 2,167 Posts
Default

They may not have hollowpoints, but the
M855A1 and
M80A1

Both catagorized as Ball ammunition
Are crazy good
Barrier Blind
AP
Brutal terminal performance

I have some of both rounds. If I know something serious is about to happen, that is what I would use.
Wow just wow, those are some serious-arse $#!+

I hope that some day they get out to the public in quantity and reasonable prices
But after one mass shooting
The effects will cause them to be banned
The treminal effect is terminal
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Jack Swilling For This Useful Post:
Old 10-13-2019, 08:55 AM
curt mini14 curt mini14 is offline
Prepared
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: nth az
Posts: 254
Thanks: 550
Thanked 474 Times in 160 Posts
Default

every one falls to the ball.
Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 10-13-2019, 09:15 AM
AK103K's Avatar
AK103K AK103K is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,556
Thanks: 6,476
Thanked 10,884 Times in 4,420 Posts
Default

Everyone falls to a good and proper hit, no matter what it is youre using.

I always love these "I hit him with 10 rounds of 9mm and he was still at it" type stories, yet they never tell you if and where they actually hit them, if they actually hit them at all.

The reality was probably more along the lines of "I shot "AT" him with 10 rounds of 9mm (or whatever), and he was still at it. I just didnt make any good hits, or hit any switches to shut him down."

Isnt it funny how its always "the ammo" doesn't perform, and/or the gun sucks, when in reality, its "the shooter" who isnt holding up their end, and getting it done.

Add to that, the mentality that they are carrying a magic bullet or caliber thats a millimeter or two larger, or a few FPS faster, and truly believe, they only need shoot once, and its all over.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to AK103K For This Useful Post:
Old 10-13-2019, 10:26 AM
rswink rswink is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Age: 51
Posts: 30
Thanks: 158
Thanked 102 Times in 20 Posts
Default

They want that magic ray gun from the movies.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to rswink For This Useful Post:
Old 10-13-2019, 01:47 PM
NW GUY's Avatar
NW GUY NW GUY is offline
Born 120 years too late.
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,599
Thanks: 66
Thanked 4,525 Times in 1,178 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by basketweave View Post
Is a person better off stocking up on 9mm flat nose fmj, or cheap 9mm hollow point ammo for SHTF?

I'm wondering if cheap hollow point ammo (that first existed in the 90s, if not the 80s as well) may not be the greatest due to possible under penetration on large thugs. There have been a number of cases where a bad guy didn't go down despite multiple hits in the torso. It is obviously impossible to know what the effect of flat nose fmj ammo would have been in those cases but it does penetrate deeper.

In addition to the old, common hollow points like Federal Hi-shok or Winchester White Box, there is hollow point ammo from brands like Fiocchi, Sellier and Bellot, Silver Bear, and probably others that aren't coming to mind.

The know the ballistic gel standard is 12 to 18 inches. I never knew what size person that assumes. Also, penetration on something alive is sometimes, if not frequently less than what gel shows.
FIRST THING to remember... you are starting with a bullet that is .355 in diameter.
SECOND THING... it is a LIGHT bullet 120-149gr at heaviest.
SO
IF.. it is a great expanding bullet, if you are lucky it gets to .45 diameter
BUT
there is nothing that will enhance the throw weight. So, there is nothing to do for better energy production.


From personal police experience in investigating over 1000 shootings, I have seen too many folks hit with multiples from calibers beginning with .35 to have any faith in the idea it will stop a fight. Whereas rounds beginning with .4 seemed quite effective to putting folks on the floor. Heavier bullets also seemed to work better than lighter bullets.(most interesting, a young man who took 5- 9mm hardballs in chest/torso between belt and shoulders who was so adamant he was not going to wait for an ambulance he had to be physically restrained because he was going to find the guy who shot him.)

That said, for "interpersonal communications" you want the absolute best most reliable ammo that works in your chosen caliber and screw the costs.
For practice you can shoot anything so long as it goes bang and the bullet leaves the barrel with enough energy to break the paper on your practice target.

For circumstances where it may be your last shot on this planet... do you REALLY want to bargain hunt and marginalize for that last shot?????????
Quick reply to this message
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to NW GUY For This Useful Post:
Old 10-13-2019, 02:49 PM
Outpost75 Outpost75 is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Outside the Moderate Damage Radius, over the mountain and far away.
Posts: 2,439
Thanks: 2,049
Thanked 4,926 Times in 1,718 Posts
Default

Before 1900 when most service revolvers were of caliber which started with a "4" and threw a flat-nosed, half-ounce chunk of soft lead at 700-800 fps, nobody complained about stopping power.

It was the .38 Long Colt in the 1892 Army revolver which fired a 148-grain bullet at about 720 fps which failed so miserably in the Phillipines. Its interim replacement was to take old Colt Single Action Army revolvers out of storage, which were cut back to 5-1/2" and sending them to the PI with the .45 S&W M1882 Schofield cartridge which fired a 230-grain flatnosed lead bullet at 730 +/- 25 fps from a 5-1/2" barrel.

While everyone likes to write about how powerful the original 1873 .45 Colt black powder load was with its 255-grain bullet and 40 grains of black powder, after 1875 the Army loaded only the shorter, lower-powered Schofield cartridge, to simplify ammunition supply, since it avoided having two different .45 revolver cartridges in the supply system. The later .45 M1909 smokeless cartridge used in the Colt New Service had very similar ballistics.

When the .45 ACP cartridge first came out its velocity was 810 +/- 25 fps at 25-1/2 ft. from the muzzle with 230-grain bullet, for WW2 spec was changed to 855 +/- 25 to convert the figure to muzzle velocity.
Quick reply to this message
Old 10-13-2019, 03:18 PM
Christian Christian is offline
Wayfinder
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 303
Thanks: 205
Thanked 425 Times in 147 Posts
Default

I stand corrected. HP ammo is legal for US soldiers. I personally am a 45 guy. Have a 45acp 1911, a 45acp MPA45 rifle, and a 454 Casull Magnum revolver.
Quick reply to this message
Old 10-13-2019, 03:39 PM
hatchet jack's Avatar
hatchet jack hatchet jack is offline
Hiker
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: South of Dallas
Posts: 709
Thanks: 878
Thanked 1,034 Times in 456 Posts
Default

Quote:
It was the .38 Long Colt in the 1892 Army revolver which fired a 148-grain bullet at about 720 fps which failed so miserably in the Phillipines. Its interim replacement was to take old Colt Single Action Army revolvers out of storage, which were cut back to 5-1/2" and sending them to the PI with the .45 S&W M1882 Schofield cartridge which fired a 230-grain flatnosed lead bullet at 730 +/- 25 fps from a 5-1/2" barrel.
If you can find an article written for Guns & Ammo by Jack Lott titled "The 45 and the Moros, A myth Exploded" he stated that when he researched he found that not only did the 38 Long Colt work well in the northern part of Mindanao and that the troops and Army were happy with the new round. When the fighting moved south to the Jolo area is when they started having failures to stop.

Not only did the 38 Colt fail to stop but there were also many failures with the reissued 45s and the 30-40 Krag rifle. The only sure fight stopper they had was the 1897 Winchester pump loaded with buckshot.

I am sure the biggest problem was not the guns or caliber but getting off accurate shots when one or more of the maniac fighters came running out of the bush waving machete's over their heads and 2 or 3 attacking each soldier at a time. No one does their best shooting under those circumstances.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to hatchet jack For This Useful Post:
Old 10-13-2019, 03:58 PM
Hick Industries's Avatar
Hick Industries Hick Industries is online now
Live Secret, Live Happy
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Eastern Oklahoma
Posts: 14,255
Thanks: 17,672
Thanked 34,693 Times in 9,729 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
FIRST THING to remember... you are starting with a bullet that is .355 in diameter.
SECOND THING... it is a LIGHT bullet 120-149gr at heaviest.
SO
IF.. it is a great expanding bullet, if you are lucky it gets to .45 diameter
BUT
there is nothing that will enhance the throw weight. So, there is nothing to do for better energy production.


From personal police experience in investigating over 1000 shootings, I have seen too many folks hit with multiples from calibers beginning with .35 to have any faith in the idea it will stop a fight. Whereas rounds beginning with .4 seemed quite effective to putting folks on the floor. Heavier bullets also seemed to work better than lighter bullets.(most interesting, a young man who took 5- 9mm hardballs in chest/torso between belt and shoulders who was so adamant he was not going to wait for an ambulance he had to be physically restrained because he was going to find the guy who shot him.)

That said, for "interpersonal communications" you want the absolute best most reliable ammo that works in your chosen caliber and screw the costs.
For practice you can shoot anything so long as it goes bang and the bullet leaves the barrel with enough energy to break the paper on your practice target.

For circumstances where it may be your last shot on this planet... do you REALLY want to bargain hunt and marginalize for that last shot?????????
This is a great response.

Like many others, I am a bit superstitous. I have had great success using heavy loads in my 40 cal Browning HP, and my 44 mag Redhawk, ao I am very reluctant to consider using a minor power cartridge.

I have shot critters with my 32 mag, 38 sp, and 9mm, but the animals response is just not the same. Nothing punches them down with the same authority as a well placed 44 mag. I have already faced the condition you suggest. I loaded my 5.5" Redhawk with my own handloads.
Quick reply to this message
Old 10-13-2019, 04:57 PM
AK103K's Avatar
AK103K AK103K is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,556
Thanks: 6,476
Thanked 10,884 Times in 4,420 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hick Industries View Post
This is a great response.

Like many others, I am a bit superstitous. I have had great success using heavy loads in my 40 cal Browning HP, and my 44 mag Redhawk, ao I am very reluctant to consider using a minor power cartridge.

I have shot critters with my 32 mag, 38 sp, and 9mm, but the animals response is just not the same. Nothing punches them down with the same authority as a well placed 44 mag. I have already faced the condition you suggest. I loaded my 5.5" Redhawk with my own handloads.
I think some of the problem here is, some people are confusing use, or intended use. There seem to be two different schools of thought too.

One, is general daily carry, with the likely use being people, and the other being more of a hunting use, against large animals.

Any of the "usually" accepted self-defense rounds will work fine for the former, and the heavier "magnum" rounds for the latter.

Either will work, for their planned use, but both generally suck for the opposite use. Power or lack of it, and capacity/ease of shooting, and/or lack of it, being the main issues.

To me, the larger caliber (heavier magnum caliber) handguns are more of a niche gun, where the "carry always" SD type handguns are likely always with you.

From what Ive seen over the years, people in general, tend to be somewhat lacking in practice and reality, when it comes to their skills. And thats just with the "easy to shoot" lighter caliber guns. If I think hard, I might come up with a handful of people Ive actually seen practicing and shooting the heavy magnums in any manner Id call "realistic". Most shoot them, slow-fire, off a bench or rest, trying to show how accurate they can be.

Personally, I carry a handgun for "people". The gun(s) I carry, "could" work in a pinch for animals, especially if I make a simple round change, as Im comfortable shooting them quickly and accurately and doing so, under some stress.

I have and do shoot 44mags, 44specials, 45 Colts, etc (both DA - preferred, and SA - basically toys). But, I know what its like to shoot, or I should say, "try" and shoot them in the same manner as I do with the guns I normally carry, and what I can do with them realistically, shooting in that manner, and between heavy recoil, slower follow up, and lack of capacity, to have a cushion there, should I not be placing things where they need to go quickly and repeatably, I think they are really a poor choice for either use.

If I were somewhere those large, dangerous critters were an issue, Id be carrying a handy long gun of appropriate caliber, as well "as" the handgun. Id also most likely be using some of those hard cast 9mm's that killed that Brown a year or two back, by that guide.

If you can shoot full power, large caliber magnum rounds "realistically" (draw and quickly put multiple rounds on target where they need to go), more power to you. By all means, have at it. I just havent seen to many people who practice doing that regularly, or be able to do that "on-demand" when asked to "show me".

At this point, you would think all the old mantras and falsehoods about certain calibers would have been proven wrong, enough by now anyway, to be known for what they are. Yet we still seem to constantly hear things, and choices made, that seem to still be based entirely on them.

Kinda makes you go "hmmmm", doesnt it?
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to AK103K For This Useful Post:
Old 10-13-2019, 05:17 PM
hatchet jack's Avatar
hatchet jack hatchet jack is offline
Hiker
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: South of Dallas
Posts: 709
Thanks: 878
Thanked 1,034 Times in 456 Posts
Default

Quote:
If I were somewhere those large, dangerous critters were an issue, Id be carrying a handy long gun of appropriate caliber, as well "as" the handgun. Id also most likely be using some of those hard cast 9mm's that killed that Brown a year or two back, by that guide.
For bears these look like they would work ever bit as well as the over priced hard cast 9mm loads for bear. I don't think they would do as well for PD loads though. Even the old RN jacketed 9mm bullets were labeled "drillers" long ago because of their ability to penetrate.


You can even buy the bullets and load them yourself.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1018302572?pid=144401
Quick reply to this message
Old 10-13-2019, 06:09 PM
Jack Swilling's Avatar
Jack Swilling Jack Swilling is offline
VIP Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 3,035
Thanks: 4,903
Thanked 6,885 Times in 2,167 Posts
Default

I recomnend and carry the standard pressure Underwood Penetrator
Per Post #9 of this thread
Same bullet

The heavy flatnosed cast bullet used to kill the brown bear was from
Buffalo Bore. Rim Rock cast bullet loaded up by Buffalo Bore.
Guy's story is on their web-site
It will have far more penetration
No comparison

But all around -two legs or four - the penetrator makes sense
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Jack Swilling For This Useful Post:
Old 10-13-2019, 10:08 PM
Uteguy Uteguy is offline
old gunsel
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Wasatch Front
Posts: 429
Thanks: 1,826
Thanked 603 Times in 242 Posts
Default

I’d agree with what NW Guy had to say about then.355 V .4XX bullets.

A close friend, game warden for 30 or so years, has carried 9’s, 38’s, etc. up to 44 & 45.
He’s put down quite a few wounded and left for dead animals with whatever was his duty
weapon was at the time, or whatever rifle he had.

His opinion has value to me because most of his kills were on 150-200 pound mule deer
which is abut the size of your average human bad guy.

He would concur with NW Guy. I think that says enough.
Quick reply to this message
Old 10-13-2019, 10:58 PM
Marlin94's Avatar
Marlin94 Marlin94 is online now
Survivor
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,891
Thanks: 6,780
Thanked 6,839 Times in 2,414 Posts
Default

Here is my ammo story 40sw -> 357mag -> 45acp -> 40sw -> 9mm. The only thing that changed over all of those years was my ability to shoot. The better I got the more I realized that I'd rather have a 9mm than anything else. I have over 500 rounds of Gold Dots and Hornady XTP. I also have a few thousand 124gr NATO spec ammo. I doubt I'd ever get through it all in an SHTF situation but I dont worry about what is what. Just practice practice practice and train some more.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Marlin94 For This Useful Post:
Old 10-13-2019, 11:04 PM
AK103K's Avatar
AK103K AK103K is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,556
Thanks: 6,476
Thanked 10,884 Times in 4,420 Posts
Default

Regardless the caliber, you still need to hit things right to bring about a quick solution, no matter what's being shot. I once watched a local township cop "try" and put a road hit deer down one night with his issue .40 S&W. It took him three rounds, from about 10', before he actually killed the deer.

Some townships used to, and probably still do, put a .22 rifle in their cars for just that purpose. The biggest threat deer face in SE PA is a car or truck. The deer there are so big and prevalent, its a major and constant problem, year round.

A friend of mine back in the 90's was a DGW and part of that was putting deer down on a regular basis. Back then, PA Game Wardens carried S&W 357mags, and that was the weapon of choice for doing so. From talking to him, and a couple of his coworkers we used to run into at a local shop, they all seemed to prefer the 357 over anything else. I remember them bitching when they were forced to transition from the 357's to autos. Then again, that's a pretty typical response, especially from grumpy old men set in their ways and forced to make a change.

I haven't seen any of those boys in well over a decade now, and last I heard, the DGW's now carry 357SIG's. Not sure if that's changed again or not.

Regardless, it still shows that if you aren't capable of hitting what needs hit to shut things down, caliber, especially with a handgun, is pretty much moot. The 357's seem to work well in the hands of those who could shoot (whitetails down where we used to live were often in the 200 pound plus range too), and the wonder "4" whatever's some seem to swear by, don't seem to work real well when you just sorta "hit" them.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to AK103K For This Useful Post:
Old 10-14-2019, 02:25 PM
Bobcat In The Woods's Avatar
Bobcat In The Woods Bobcat In The Woods is offline
Just One More Gun
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Eastern Montana
Posts: 453
Thanks: 56
Thanked 727 Times in 277 Posts
Default

I use Winchester White Box 115 and 147 grain JHP as my go to ammo. Here's why:

Number 1- a box of 50 is $22 at Cabela's/Scheels. A box of 20 HST is $24. I get twice as much for half the price.

Number 2- I have used over a thousand rounds in my carry gun. It works reliably.

Number 3- People stop attacking you when you poke holes in important parts of the body, like lungs, liver, brain, and arteries. FMJ will do this just fine. How many hundreds of years did we use lead round balls in muskets?

But:

Hollow Points make bigger holes in people. Even a small amount of expansion will make a bigger hole in soft tissue.

I have had the privilege to observe several autopsies of shooting victims. One in particular was shot twice in the chest with 9mm WWB hollow points (we know that because the suspect turned himself in). Both bullets expanded, both bullets poked holes in lungs(more of jellied these), heart, and arteries, and both bullets were stopped between the skin and rib muscles in the victim's back. The guy was wearing a thick Carhartt jacket, fleece hoodie, and Hanes white T-shirt.

Another autopsy I saw, the victim was shot 3 times in the upper chest with 45acp round ball (we recovered the gun used), with similar results. The lungs were less damaged, but the heart was still perforated = dead victim. All three were pass through shots.

Another anecdote: I personally knew a fellow who was killed by a single 45acp round ball to the forearm.

So, there's my reasoning.
Quick reply to this message
Old 10-14-2019, 08:29 PM
basketweave basketweave is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Southwest
Posts: 98
Thanks: 99
Thanked 39 Times in 33 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
...From personal police experience in investigating over 1000 shootings, I have seen too many folks hit with multiples from calibers beginning with .35 to have any faith in the idea it will stop a fight. Whereas rounds beginning with .4 seemed quite effective to putting folks on the floor. Heavier bullets also seemed to work better than lighter bullets.(most interesting, a young man who took 5- 9mm hardballs in chest/torso between belt and shoulders who was so adamant he was not going to wait for an ambulance he had to be physically restrained because he was going to find the guy who shot him.)...
Your experience/knowledge is very valuable.

Were these shooting mostly hollow point, fmj, or a combination of both? FWIW, the .40 S&W fmj is usually a flat point.

Did the man who took the 5 9mm fmj to the torso acquire any hits near the center of the body (either in the upper or lower torso) as opposed to hits that just skinned or semi skinned the body? If so, were they pass through wounds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AK103K View Post
I have and do shoot 44mags, 44specials, 45 Colts, etc (both DA - preferred, and SA - basically toys). But, I know what its like to shoot, or I should say, "try" and shoot them in the same manner as I do with the guns I normally carry, and what I can do with them realistically, shooting in that manner, and between heavy recoil, slower follow up, and lack of capacity, to have a cushion there, should I not be placing things where they need to go quickly and repeatably, I think they are really a poor choice for either use.
There are some .44 Special loads with out heavy recoil that have a reputation for working well. I think these are the wadcutters.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobcat In The Woods View Post
I use Winchester White Box 115 and 147 grain JHP as my go to ammo. Here's why:

Number 1- a box of 50 is $22 at Cabela's/Scheels. A box of 20 HST is $24. I get twice as much for half the price.

Number 2- I have used over a thousand rounds in my carry gun. It works reliably.

Number 3- People stop attacking you when you poke holes in important parts of the body, like lungs, liver, brain, and arteries. FMJ will do this just fine. How many hundreds of years did we use lead round balls in muskets?

But:

Hollow Points make bigger holes in people. Even a small amount of expansion will make a bigger hole in soft tissue.

I have had the privilege to observe several autopsies of shooting victims. One in particular was shot twice in the chest with 9mm WWB hollow points (we know that because the suspect turned himself in). Both bullets expanded, both bullets poked holes in lungs(more of jellied these), heart, and arteries, and both bullets were stopped between the skin and rib muscles in the victim's back. The guy was wearing a thick Carhartt jacket, fleece hoodie, and Hanes white T-shirt.

Another autopsy I saw, the victim was shot 3 times in the upper chest with 45acp round ball (we recovered the gun used), with similar results. The lungs were less damaged, but the heart was still perforated = dead victim. All three were pass through shots.

Another anecdote: I personally knew a fellow who was killed by a single 45acp round ball to the forearm.

So, there's my reasoning.
I think the San Diego Police used 147 grain hollow points a long time ago. I'm not sure if they were WWB but my guess is they were. I read they were happy with that load's performance.

Hollow points will probably punch a larger hole but...the penetration needs to be sufficient. If it wasn't in a particular incident, flat nose would have been better.

How many grains were the WWB hollow points the man was shot with? How large was the man?

How large was the man who was hit with .45 fmj rounds?

Last edited by basketweave; 10-14-2019 at 08:31 PM.. Reason: grammar
Quick reply to this message
Old 10-14-2019, 10:10 PM
NW GUY's Avatar
NW GUY NW GUY is offline
Born 120 years too late.
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,599
Thanks: 66
Thanked 4,525 Times in 1,178 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by basketweave View Post
Your experience/knowledge is very valuable.

Were these shooting mostly hollow point, fmj, or a combination of both? FWIW, the .40 S&W fmj is usually a flat point.

Did the man who took the 5 9mm fmj to the torso acquire any hits near the center of the body (either in the upper or lower torso) as opposed to hits that just skinned or semi skinned the body? If so, were they pass through wounds?

?
He had 5 holes going in and 5 holes leaving. He had intestines hit, one lung, stomach .. he was pretty messed up. He would have died according to the docs if he had made his getaway to seek revenge. The blood bubble in his mouth sort of gave it away. Why I am not a big fan of 9mms especially with HB.

Basically, being able to hit well is the most important thing, but also honestly not everyone can practice to where they can be Auric Goldfinger with his .25 " I shoot at the right eye Mr. Bond, and I never miss."

Shot placement skill is great , it is absolute and maybe a microbial fraction size of folks on the planet can deliver that perfect placement when it really matters... so how do you give yourself more fudge factor, bigger diameter and heavier bullets, translating to more energy giving a better chance at coming out on the successful end.

I saw people dead and dying from just about every round found in the US and some were impressive, such as a 12ga slug at the base of the skull . That was a one shot stopper.

Conversely a buddy on another department shot a rather large African gentleman just above the nose from ohhhhhh about 3 feet as the same gentleman was ready to cut him from crotch to neck with a straight razor. The guy flopped onto his back, my friend rady to call for dead animal pickup when he noticed the "dead guy" was still breathing. A trip to the hospital confirmed he was not only alive, but he was much better than he should have been. The .38spcl 158gr rnl had run between the skull and the scalp and lodged at the back of the head, flattened out like a quarter. THe ER put a bandaid front and back and sent him to jail.

Another bud , a sgt in another jurisdiction put 5 .357 145gr HPs into a guy at a Dom Vi. All inside the 8 ring, at about 12 feet. THe guy dropped his shotgun and turned and went back into his house. While ES Team was being summoned, the shootee was feeling some discomfort and decided he should seek medical attention. He walked back out and gave himself up. This over the span of about 20 minutes. The guy had 10 holes in him, 5 in the front and 5 out the back. ALL that energy was lost due to over penetration. HE LIVED.

If there are other options out there... I see no reason to bet my life on a .3anything when I can have a .45. Just prudent planning.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to NW GUY For This Useful Post:
Old 10-15-2019, 01:17 AM
basketweave basketweave is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Southwest
Posts: 98
Thanks: 99
Thanked 39 Times in 33 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
...Conversely a buddy on another department shot a rather large African gentleman just above the nose from ohhhhhh about 3 feet as the same gentleman was ready to cut him from crotch to neck with a straight razor. The guy flopped onto his back, my friend rady to call for dead animal pickup when he noticed the "dead guy" was still breathing. A trip to the hospital confirmed he was not only alive, but he was much better than he should have been. The .38spcl 158gr rnl had run between the skull and the scalp and lodged at the back of the head, flattened out like a quarter. THe ER put a bandaid front and back and sent him to jail.

Another bud , a sgt in another jurisdiction put 5 .357 145gr HPs into a guy at a Dom Vi. All inside the 8 ring, at about 12 feet. THe guy dropped his shotgun and turned and went back into his house. While ES Team was being summoned, the shootee was feeling some discomfort and decided he should seek medical attention. He walked back out and gave himself up. This over the span of about 20 minutes. The guy had 10 holes in him, 5 in the front and 5 out the back. ALL that energy was lost due to over penetration. HE LIVED...
My guess is if the large man was shot in the same place with the same caliber (.38) using semi-wadcutters or wadcutters, he would have died due to the edge of the bullet being more inclined, if not much more inclined to cut through bone. One of the reasons NYPD shifted to semi-wadcutters, if I'm not mistaken, was due to round nose bullets bouncing off heads.

My guess in the second case above is the 145 grain ammo was Winchester Silvertip. That's the only one I recall being 145 grains. I'm wondering if the same was small or medium sized for those bullets to pass through. The bullets passing through may have very little steam left after they passed through. The standard 158 grain .357 has more energy than the standard .45 and about the same momentum (grains X velocity).

One of the theories for hunting for the most humane harvest is for the bullet to pass through, though not have much steam left after it passed through.
Quick reply to this message
Reply

Bookmarks



Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Survivalist Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Gender
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright © Kevin Felts 2006 - 2015,
Green theme by http://www.themesbydesign.net