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Old 10-12-2019, 10:29 PM
country_boy country_boy is offline
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The repeater needs an antenna, a radio to receive and a radio to send, plus a power supply (usually battery back up--like a UPS). They take up relatively little room, and are added to other towers antennas in place. A few square feet in a building or shed. About 4 feet of tower.

The bigger impact is windload and antenna space. The antenna and coax increase the wind load on the antenna tower and you usually don’t want two antennas at the same level, espically on the same band- maybe not a big deal if the tower is mostly 800 MHz- I think CALfire is VHF, which is the most common ham freq. a really big tower ( self supporter) can accommodate antennass at the same level- we like to see 8’ of separation.

Another question is how big is CALfire’s footprint- in some states the forestry department operates radios or tower sites for multiple agencies. CALfire contracts to provide municipal fire protection which would tend to increase their footprint.

My employer is fairly unfriendly to collocation- the intermod between multiple transmitters can degrade performance. I’m not sure home real the issue is ( from one extra repeater) but we have two dozen spectrum engineers and techs. The internod problems I’ve seen have allways been seriously congested sites and/or TV stations:- Sweat Mt, GA, stone Mt, Ga, Mt Wilson, Pico del Este, PR, places like that.
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Old 10-13-2019, 07:44 AM
Vanishing Nomad Vanishing Nomad is offline
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So what is Firstnet?

From what I can see it's just a cell service network that doesnt allow civilian use. And they have drones to deploy during emergencies when towers go down.

I fail to see how that will help over normal radio, in serious emergencies like a Katrina disaster, or mass power outagges and such.

Is this supposed to completely replace current com systems?

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Originally Posted by Central Scrutinizer View Post
I wont argue that.

However the communications technology has changed radically and the public's perception of communications has been altered and distorted. Most folks today have really no understanding of how things work. They have been handed a smartphone and are captivated by the magic. Public Safety users likewise expect that magic is happening.

The plan for the future is ATT Firstnet. Users believe this will make LMR obsolete.

I don't share that opinion.





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Old 10-13-2019, 08:25 AM
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Possibly because California is broke?

When you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras
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Old 10-13-2019, 08:41 AM
Vanishing Nomad Vanishing Nomad is offline
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Possibly because California is broke?

When you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras
Amateur radio is free though. It's all volunteer based. All then need to do is let them amateur operators to put an antenna and repeater box on the tower...that tower is already sitting there and already paid for.

Its a no cost system.
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Old 10-13-2019, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Vanishing Nomad View Post
Amateur radio is free though. It's all volunteer based. All then need to do is let them amateur operators to put an antenna and repeater box on the tower...that tower is already sitting there and already paid for.

Its a no cost system.
So there's 0 maintenance or electricity paid for by the state?
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Old 10-13-2019, 02:43 PM
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So there's 0 maintenance or electricity paid for by the state?
In comparison to all the other power usage in a typical EOC or other municipal building, the cost of power and maintenance is pretty much zero.
As an example, our EOC has basically a large closet set aside as the Radio Room. The radios are off except for the monthly radio check. I go in, turn on the radios, check into the ARES Net, make some notes, turn them off and spend a half hour or so BSing with the EOC director.
Even if the radios were on all the time the power usage is minimal. Not much at all is used in Receive. A little more in Transmit. For the 30 seconds or so I'm actually transmitting those powerful 100 watts on the HF net and 25 watts on VHF.
In our area we are fortunate that the county sprang for the antennas, the HF and UHF/VHF rigs, a back up set of radios and several dual band radios and mag mount antennas that could be popped into vehicles for mobile use. They bought them probably 10 years ago.
In some areas Clubs will put their own equipment in. So, no, not an area to save a whole bunch of taxpayer money on.

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Old 10-13-2019, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ~Black.Dog~ View Post
In comparison to all the other power usage in a typical EOC or other municipal building, the cost of power and maintenance is pretty much zero.
As an example, our EOC has basically a large closet set aside as the Radio Room. The radios are off except for the monthly radio check. I go in, turn on the radios, check into the ARES Net, make some notes, turn them off and spend a half hour or so BSing with the EOC director.
Even if the radios were on all the time the power usage is minimal. Not much at all is used in Receive. A little more in Transmit. For the 30 seconds or so I'm actually transmitting those powerful 100 watts on the HF net and 25 watts on VHF.
In our area we are fortunate that the county sprang for the antennas, the HF and UHF/VHF rigs, a back up set of radios and several dual band radios and mag mount antennas that could be popped into vehicles for mobile use. They bought them probably 10 years ago.
In some areas Clubs will put their own equipment in. So, no, not an area to save a whole bunch of taxpayer money on.

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Old 10-13-2019, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanishing Nomad View Post
Amateur radio is free though. It's all volunteer based. All then need to do is let them amateur operators to put an antenna and repeater box on the tower...that tower is already sitting there and already paid for.



Its a no cost system.
It is not as simple as just hanging an antenna.

It would be like expecting a free ride on a jet plane because a seat is available.

On going costs

1) Electrical power and HVAC
2) Interference analysis, IM and TNRD. Additional filtering required on PS equipment.
3) Tower climbers must be certified and have liability and workers comp insurance.
4) Access control
5) liability
6) Tower wind loading and structural analysis. Most towers don't meet current EIA222 specs and thus every additional antenna and transmission line has a cost in future loading of the tower.
7) Rack and floor space. VHF duplexers are huge, oftentimes Ham repeaters are decades old monsters in huge cabinets, or they have huge old cabinets with a half dozen link radios crammed in.

Not slamming the hams, but you got to be realistic in expectations.

It works both ways, I once had a public safety client who got a federal grant to install satellite receivers and voting on a county wide VHF Sheriffs channel. She had no budget defined for the towers. She expected to get free tower space from the cellular companies because "We are the Sheriff". Well guess what, no takers. To make it work required shifting some money around and buying used towers to put up at fire stations. Towers barely high enough for the 960 MHz links. Not ideal by any means.

No free rack or tower space any longer. It has been that way for a while since the tower ownership became consolidated by cellular companies.




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Old 10-13-2019, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanishing Nomad View Post
So what is Firstnet?



From what I can see it's just a cell service network that doesnt allow civilian use. And they have drones to deploy during emergencies when towers go down.



I fail to see how that will help over normal radio, in serious emergencies like a Katrina disaster, or mass power outagges and such.



Is this supposed to completely replace current com systems?
There is a FirstNet website where you can get some propoganda, umm information and free kool aid.

Congress passed a bill to create a nationwide public safety communications service in the 700 MHz Band 14 (wide band LTE). The contract was awarded to ATT to build out. The deal is that commercial civilian users can use the Band 14, but they will be preempted by Public Safety.

The system is nowhere near constructed and there are serious questions about public safety PTT voice features and if or how they would ever replace standard public safety LMR radios (Motorola walkie talkies).

Personally, my money is on this system becoming obsolete before it is completed. But I could be wrong.




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Old 10-14-2019, 02:16 AM
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The gubernment wants you to depend on them for everything. If the only sources of news are under their control they can do anything to anyone at anytime.

They don't own the land. Besides that there will be other ways to get commo done without involving them. Might take a while to get it in place. Necessity is the mother of invention.
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Old 10-14-2019, 09:16 AM
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Because they've been privatizing government resources for decades. That free space can be sold to cell providers now, or the little guys can pay for it. Just another California tax.

A couple of decades ago I was downloading NOAA and NIST data for projects, now they sell that information to Weather Underground, etc. and you need to buy it from 3rd parties.

So who's getting the kickback for leasing the space on publicly owned towers to private entities. There's your answer. It's likely a combination of crony capitalism and California communism where the guy in charge makes money off the publicly funded infrastructure. Maybe not when working in the government, but when they quit or retire and get on the payrolls.

But I may have a jaded outlook.

If the emergency resources ever need your help, send them a contract to sign before, and a bill for your equipment and time after.
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:29 AM
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Subbed....
__________________
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:41 AM
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Politically motivated?

Hmmmmmm......

I wonder what the demographic data is on Ham operators in Kalifornia? I bet it leans heavily to Libertarian and Conservative.



......
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Old 10-15-2019, 03:18 PM
yetimetchkangmi yetimetchkangmi is offline
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Originally Posted by Big_John View Post
Politically motivated?

Hmmmmmm......

I wonder what the demographic data is on Ham operators in Kalifornia? I bet it leans heavily to Libertarian and Conservative.



......
Yep, but when a SHTF event occurs in SFO or LAX, those lefties are woken up and forget about all that free stuff, free sharing, free Uber, free health care, etc etc and become "this is mine"
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Old 10-15-2019, 04:24 PM
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How's all that grid tied solar doing for you in the blackouts? Panels making power that no one can use - say it isn't so.
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Old 10-15-2019, 11:58 PM
Hunter Don Hunter Don is offline
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ARRLs story on this

http://www.arrl.org/news/report-caus...ur-radio-ranks


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Old 10-16-2019, 12:02 AM
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Thanks, I figured it would be something like that.
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Old 10-16-2019, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Central Scrutinizer View Post
There is a FirstNet website where you can get some propoganda, umm information and free kool aid.

Congress passed a bill to create a nationwide public safety communications service in the 700 MHz Band 14 (wide band LTE). The contract was awarded to ATT to build out. The deal is that commercial civilian users can use the Band 14, but they will be preempted by Public Safety.

The system is nowhere near constructed and there are serious questions about public safety PTT voice features and if or how they would ever replace standard public safety LMR radios (Motorola walkie talkies).

Personally, my money is on this system becoming obsolete before it is completed. But I could be wrong.




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The first net may be a boom or bust. I think it will be fine for MDTs.

But LTE will likely replace the air interface of LMR over time- just as it will for the military. This could be done at 150 MHz for public safety and still inter operate with public works and the dog catcher. Maybe analog radios remain- but I see P25/EDACS going away.

Lots of fEMS agencies have more money in cradlepoint than Motorola today.
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Old 10-16-2019, 12:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by country_boy View Post
The first net may be a boom or bust. I think it will be fine for MDTs.



But LTE will likely replace the air interface of LMR over time- just as it will for the military. This could be done at 150 MHz for public safety and still inter operate with public works and the dog catcher. Maybe analog radios remain- but I see P25/EDACS going away.



Lots of fEMS agencies have more money in cradlepoint than Motorola today.
I don't see LTE as it now exists replacing P25 or DMR as an LMR air interface.

The data rates and resulting bandwidth of LTE put it at a huge disadvantage as far as system gain when compared to P25 and even FM as used in LMR today. LTE systems require a great number of base stations to replicate a single P25 base station. Plus the simplex PTT off network solution does not exist for LTE. Then there is the subscriber antenna situation.






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Old 10-16-2019, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ~Black.Dog~ View Post
It is foolish of them but it's not as bad as some make it sound. A state can't shut down the airwaves.
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But foolish has not stopped California in the past!
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