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Old 09-28-2019, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
Exactly.

All you are arguing is scale.

So you own guns because the police can't protect you. But if someone misuses guns that is illegal and the police will protect you.

Which is the same as not owning and having the police protect you.

Except you are going to be hard pressed to kill 40 people with a boomerang.

Now because you own guns and expect the police to protect you. You empower the police with much more authority, and much more fire power. So any freedom guns gave you is then taken away by the need to employ counter measures.

And because your argument basically collapses on itself. It needs to be broken in to parts and shifted around so nobody ever connects the whole thing.
You have no grasp of reality.

You just keep stringing words together, pretending you're saying something that makes sense.

I suspect there is ETOH involved.
No. It is the Brawndo has what plants crave discussion that I am constantly forced to have with you guys.

https://youtu.be/GFD2ggNxR1g

A slogan isn't logic.

Seriously people are arguing freedom against New Zealand.

The most free country in the world.

How dumb is that?
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Old 09-28-2019, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
If the point of the right to bear arms is to stand against the government.

Then it is also the right to shoot up a school.
That’s the worst logical leap I’ve heard anyone make today.

You simply do NOT have “the right” to shoot up anything other than the tyrannical government itself, simply because the government would have to respond to you, thus making your actions anti-government.

That’s terrorism, you idiot.

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Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
Freedom is increased with good rules.
Unfortunately for you, freedom is decreased by bad rules...which is the one thing a government is guaranteed to produce over time. Which is why we need guns, and why the government SHOULD NOT make rules about them.

Your point is literally saying the opposite of what you wanted it to say.
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Old 09-28-2019, 07:11 AM
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Im from SA, we unfortunately dont have a 2nd amendment like you guys. Before the current terrorists took over the goverment we had a commando system in place to protect rural areas and we could apply for licences for guns. Since the communist regime change, the new firearm act was introduced with various amendments made as they went along, making it very difficult to obtain a license and even talks of banning the self defence application section and limits on ammo etc. ( still not implemented yet) and all legal owners having to undergo backround checks and register their firearms. Needless to say they disbanded the commando system when they took over leaving our farmers at the mercy of murdering thieves and having to try protect themselves. Crime has escalted to such a point that we have over 50 murders a day- and its not even war yet. Incompetence from the goverment to run this country and protect the citizens is non existent. With over 100 laws aimed at marginalizing and discriminating against the white minority here and the economic collapse of the country around the corner, we are looking at civil war. If you try to protect yourself against attacks from these mental retards, they go out of their way to demonize you and make you look like the aggressor. Gun free south africa with soros funding is trying their best to disarm us. We will stand firm when the final push comes to disarm us as we know whats going to happen. I hope you guys will do the same over there

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Old 09-28-2019, 09:19 AM
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Im from SA, we unfortunately dont have a 2nd amendment like you guys. Before the current terrorists took over the goverment we had a commando system in place to protect rural areas and we could apply for licences for guns. Since the communist regime change, the new firearm act was introduced with various amendments made as they went along, making it very difficult to obtain a license and even talks of banning the self defence application section and limits on ammo etc. ( still not implemented yet) and all legal owners having to undergo backround checks and register their firearms. Needless to say they disbanded the commando system when they took over leaving our farmers at the mercy of murdering thieves and having to try protect themselves. Crime has escalted to such a point that we have over 50 murders a day- and its not even war yet. Incompetence from the goverment to run this country and protect the citizens is non existent. With over 100 laws aimed at marginalizing and discriminating against the white minority here and the economic collapse of the country around the corner, we are looking at civil war. If you try to protect yourself against attacks from these mental retards, they go out of their way to demonize you and make you look like the aggressor. Gun free south africa with soros funding is trying their best to disarm us. We will stand firm when the final push comes to disarm us as we know whats going to happen. I hope you guys will do the same over there

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My heart goes out to the White people of S. Africa. I know it's hard to dump everything you own & flee the land of your birth but, that is truly the best chance you have for survival. I recommend burning your homes & outbuildings to the ground & salting your soil before you go. I know most of you won't leave so you will stay in my prayers.

No caring & benevolent government has anything to lose & everything to gain with an armed populace. An armed populace will rally behind a good government & supplement the military in a foreign invasion. It's only Tyrants that seek an unarmed peasantry because everyone knows that even a good dog will bite when kicked once too often.
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Old 09-28-2019, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
Exactly.

All you are arguing is scale.

So you own guns because the police can't protect you. But if someone misuses guns that is illegal and the police will protect you.

Which is the same as not owning and having the police protect you.

Except you are going to be hard pressed to kill 40 people with a boomerang.

Now because you own guns and expect the police to protect you. You empower the police with much more authority, and much more fire power. So any freedom guns gave you is then taken away by the need to employ counter measures.

And because your argument basically collapses on itself. It needs to be broken in to parts and shifted around so nobody ever connects the whole thing.
Only delusional anti-gunners EXPECT the police in America to protect them. It's already been established in the court system that the job of law enforcement is to catch criminals AFTER they've victimized you & NOT to prevent your victimization. Yes a good cop will try to prevent your victimization but, there's not a lot they can do with the Liberals screeching about "Police Brutality" every time a violent criminal is shot or even tazed by a cop.

I'd like to see the cops get more support for the dangerous job they do but, I'd HATE to see them given "Pre-Crime" powers of arrest. That would be a system that would be abused 1000 times worse that what we have now.

Self defense is the number ONE most basic & fundamental of ALL Human Rights. It goes beyond Human Rights & applies to every living creature. If you walk up to a dog & begin soccer kicking it in the ribs, it has every right to rip a chunk of meat out of your leg.

ANY government that criminalizes a man's right to defend himself is a vicious & dystopian TYRANNY that desperately needs to be removed from power BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY.
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Old 09-28-2019, 09:52 AM
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First of all, the original report came from CBS. Don’t trust them. There is little substance in this story. It amounts to Trump meeting with a world leader and discussing recent events. New Zealand doesn’t have many things happen, so they had to go back to that. If CBS says it, it’s probably a lie or an embellishment.

Second, it shouldn’t surprise anyone if Trump actually is interested in a buyback. He doesn’t understand why Americans own guns and so buying them back from us to stop us from using them might actually sound good to him. We make some money to spend in the economy and no more gun violence. Because he doesn’t understand why we have them. I’ll never understand why so many people thought he was a Constitutional scholar.

Third, it doesn’t matter what he wants to do. His enemies would still hate him and his supporters will still worship him. His words mean literally nothing at all. He could order a door to door confiscation today and leftists would still want him burned at the stake, while his supporters would want him canonized.

In the end, Trump or no Trump, gun laws are going to become progressively more restrictive until the point of having our doors kicked in, bank accounts frozen, jobs blocked, etc. When that happens, what are we going to do?
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Old 09-28-2019, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Snuggle Monkey View Post
Only delusional anti-gunners EXPECT the police in America to protect them. It's already been established in the court system that the job of law enforcement is to catch criminals AFTER they've victimized you & NOT to prevent your victimization. Yes a good cop will try to prevent your victimization but, there's not a lot they can do with the Liberals screeching about "Police Brutality" every time a violent criminal is shot or even tazed by a cop.

I'd like to see the cops get more support for the dangerous job they do but, I'd HATE to see them given "Pre-Crime" powers of arrest. That would be a system that would be abused 1000 times worse that what we have now.

Self defense is the number ONE most basic & fundamental of ALL Human Rights. It goes beyond Human Rights & applies to every living creature. If you walk up to a dog & begin soccer kicking it in the ribs, it has every right to rip a chunk of meat out of your leg.

ANY government that criminalizes a man's right to defend himself is a vicious & dystopian TYRANNY that desperately needs to be removed from power BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY.
The cops can do plenty to prevent crime. Just ask hero Phillip Brailsford.
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Old 09-28-2019, 10:02 AM
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That’s the worst logical leap I’ve heard anyone make today.

You simply do NOT have “the right” to shoot up anything other than the tyrannical government itself, simply because the government would have to respond to you, thus making your actions anti-government.

That’s terrorism, you idiot.



Unfortunately for you, freedom is decreased by bad rules...which is the one thing a government is guaranteed to produce over time. Which is why we need guns, and why the government SHOULD NOT make rules about them.

Your point is literally saying the opposite of what you wanted it to say.
Don’t engage him. You can see that he views himself as a supreme being around here, as he is “forced” to come down from his throne to have this discussion with “you guys”. He wouldn’t want us meddling in the affairs of a superior nation like NZ, but he constantly has his decrees and criticisms for the US.

He feels himself to be immensely superior to you and your way of life, he looks down his nose at you and your family. Is that the kind of person you want to remember conversing with? My advice is to laugh at his ignorance and then go about your day, never thinking about his existence again. Trust me, he’ll be thinking about you plenty. People like that always do. They’re perpetually preoccupied with making sure their own self image stays above the rest of us trash. But we are on his mind.
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Old 09-28-2019, 10:25 AM
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me, he’ll be thinking about you plenty. People like that always do. They’re perpetually preoccupied with making sure their own self image stays above the rest of us trash. But we are on his mind.



Yup!
We're living in his head rent free.
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Old 09-28-2019, 10:44 AM
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The cops can do plenty to prevent crime. Just ask hero Phillip Brailsford.
That is not a counter of anything I said. Law Enforcement is not legally REQUIRED to protect anyone & pointing out an abusive turd like Brailsford makes me happy that they're not. Giving cops "pre-crime" powers would only increase the number of Brailsfords we have in Law Enforcement.

I never suggested the cops were perfect. Every Dept. has the loser who never got laid in high school & joined the force to "get the respect they deserve." It may vary depending on where you live but, those types are a small minority in my neck of the woods. I'm sure cites like Portland seek those types out.
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Old 09-28-2019, 11:27 AM
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Don’t engage him. You can see that he views himself as a supreme being around here, as he is “forced” to come down from his throne to have this discussion with “you guys”. He wouldn’t want us meddling in the affairs of a superior nation like NZ, but he constantly has his decrees and criticisms for the US.

He feels himself to be immensely superior to you and your way of life, he looks down his nose at you and your family. Is that the kind of person you want to remember conversing with? My advice is to laugh at his ignorance and then go about your day, never thinking about his existence again. Trust me, he’ll be thinking about you plenty. People like that always do. They’re perpetually preoccupied with making sure their own self image stays above the rest of us trash. But we are on his mind.
I don't buy **** from him!
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Old 09-28-2019, 11:50 AM
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Trump has presidential debates next year in which his alt-left pandering opponent will undoubtedly mention moronic method in policy form such as *gun buy backs*. He would be a total incompetent to not discuss that with the current politician attempting to use it. Trump is very effectual and astute, as we have witnessed, much to the chagrin and anger of his opponents.

Pottery, you ignoramus, you are misquoting case law and legal presedence. Worse, you have utilized several false equivalencies to do so. The police are legally obligated to prevent crime and investigate/apprehend crime/criminals. Individuals are legally tasked with thier own self preservation. This is enumerated by our bill of rights, in the case of self-preservation, most directly by our 2nd Amendment but legally by our 4th, 5th, 6th and 8th amendments. All limit governmental overreach both on an individualistic and societal basis but all are actually enforced on a literal basis by a heavily armed populace. It’s yet another layer of independently enforceable checks and balances upon govt and within govt. not everyone owns guns here but many do and that in itself is a deterrent to criminals and crime, the uncertainty of response lethality.

As for your circular treatise, moronic reasoning based upon ignorance? Some are forced to depend upon police in urban areas for non-existent protection due to strict gun laws, result, extraordinarily high crime and murder rates by those who don’t follow those same laws. Sometimes those laws are situational, such as “gun safe zones” that guarantee unarmed victim such as movies, govt buildings, businesses, banks. At all times, your personal safety is secondary to alleged societal or property safety because legally, personal safety is an individuals responsibility. Once again, 2nd Amendment. That is very different from the commonwealth system where the govt is responsible for public safety, and public order. Our government is only tasked with maintaining public order. Light limitations on allowable gun use have developed over time in the interest of maintaining public order. Some states and municipal govts have abused that, resulting in proportional increases in violent crime.

So, Pottery and other non-US citizen posters, is our system becoming more concrete in your understanding? A final point, that self-preservation responsibility also extends to self-preservation against our own government entities should they become tyrannical and violate that Bill of Rights and the court system prove ineffectual. A scoped deer rifle has many equivalent uses to killing 140# deer at 300-500 meters with single shot accuracy. There are 20-30 million of those in private hands here, unregistered, untraceable, often regularly used. It’s an anonymous army, as are the pistols, shotguns and other rifles in private hands here, currently estimated at 320 million, with hundreds of billions of rounds of ammo. Our founding fathers wrote about this reality in thier time period as “the militia” and being “well organized” which in thier time literally meant well equipped, which ours is indeed in this current modern day.
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Old 09-28-2019, 01:13 PM
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I'll be lined up with my fellow patriots to give the bullets first, long before I hand in anything else.
I despise lines (especially long lines) , I despise and detest thieves (even under the color of illegal laws) I won't be handing anything over , and most won't likely either, since we all should know the "next step" in their plan. It is ironic that some really think that "law abiding" means following illegal decrees that impact the safety of our very families and selves.

Sure some folks "will easily comply", but it's doubtful it will be "long lines just chomping at the bit to turn them in" .....actually that is laughable
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Old 09-28-2019, 01:31 PM
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I strongly suspect they will rapidly run out of those treasonous minions of the NWO/SWAMP that are kicking down doors to confiscate weapons.

Due to the recorded history of what happens to a nation that turns in their guns, compliance will be limited.

The deep state will resort to some sort of weaponized virus, food/fuel shortage type event to gain compliance. They will come take them when everyone is dead, or you need some food/fuel/treatment then you must trade in your stuff that they have records of you having.
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Old 09-28-2019, 01:37 PM
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Free citizens own guns, slaves are not allowed to do so. It really isn't hard to grasp.
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Old 09-28-2019, 02:47 PM
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Haha!!!
So now Trump is speaking to an anti-gun supporting world leader about gun buybacks to “learn” about them in case they come up in a debate?

Oh boy!
The mental gymnastics are getting stellar up in here!

Maybe he should have consulted Bill down at the local dive bar to learn how a machine gun works before instructing his ATF to ban pieces of plastic...
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Old 09-28-2019, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Kalashnikov47 View Post
Seems the people of NZ are challenging her indirectly...

From the article:

The prime minister noted that citizens have turned over approximately 20,000 firearms and 70,000 parts. Authorities estimate that there are 1.2 million to 1.5 million firearms of any type in the country, as GunsAmerica previously reported.

Suppose that 20,000 figure doubles by the December deadline, that would mean that 40,000 firearms would be “returned,” or less than four percent of the firearms in circulation.

What she not saying is that only less than 4% have complied and the rest have basically given her and their government the middle finger.
Its not a total gun ban, they dont even know how many guns that they have banned since they never had a register.

They think estimate somewhere between 56,000 and 240,000 of guns are now banned, so they dont even know if they gun grab is going well or terrible, glad they aint my accountant
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Old 09-28-2019, 04:29 PM
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That numbers have been debunked years ago. Even Kleck backed off on those numbers. https://reason.com/2018/09/04/what-t...ys-on-defensi/
Try again.

Defensive Gun Use Is Not a Myth | Why my critics still have it wrong.
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Old 09-28-2019, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
Where are your statistics from?
https://scholarlycommons.law.northwe...3&context=jclc

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Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
And legal responsible use isn't a right. That would be a privilege. Because then there would be laws that govern the use.
So you're an expert on American jurisprudence now? I don't think so. You're not even an expert on American culture, despite what you spout.

Take some free advice: Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and to remove all doubt.
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Old 09-28-2019, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
Freedom is increased with good rules. So the argument that people are magically more free because they own guns in a more violent society is just not true.

Giving society guns and then leaving them to fend for themselves doesn't stop crime.

We can see this in places like Sudan where kids walk around with AK's and yet they are significantly less safe and less free than either of us.

And of course this is because without a Good structure and free society guns don't make people equal.

The local gang with fifty guys will out fight your average gun owner. And so will be able to do whatever they want.

Shooting them isn't a successful option.

And take in to account I am talking things like background checks and mandatory training which would still let responsible gun owners shoot bad guys.

But these actions are resisted and badly argued against with the terrible logic of guns are somehow freedom.
It's clear we're talking the same language, at least for the most part, yet I'm having difficulty understanding your arguments.

Let's leave it this way: different societies and cultures work differently. If you in Australia are better off disarmed, then mazel tov. Enjoy your life.

I've never lived in Sudan, and candidly, Sudanese gun laws just aren't worth my time. But comparing Sudan to the US to argue gun laws is sort of stupid - their entire socio-cultural approach to life and laws is entirely different from life in any US major city, or even the rural parts of the US.

Americans are blessed with the right to own guns as a Constitutional right. The country was born out of Revolution, and remains a country where the Supreme Court has confirmed an individual right to own and bear arms.

Regardless of the situations in Australia or New Zealand, no disrespect intended, what works there won't work here. Very few Americans, (including Democrats,) will happily disarm themselves to please a bunch of utopian idealists who are convinced life would be more pleasant if guns didn't exist and criminals obeyed gun laws.

Meanwhile, ordinary Americans will continue to both enjoy and depend on their firearms, and will resist any governmental attempt to deprive citizens of their guns.

It is not a winning political argument.

If you doubt that, wait and see how the elections in November 2020 turn out.
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