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Old 09-27-2019, 04:51 PM
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Kalashnikov47 Kalashnikov47 is online now
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Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
These anti-gun people just keep spreading the same lies.

* No "need" baloney. I guarantee that NZ PM (and her extended family) is guarded by a team of heavily armed men with top tier weaponry. So for her there's no perceptive "need." What about commoners?

* Lies about compliance and a "positive result."

And more.

Tire deeply of their lies. I equally tire of nobody challenging her? "Mrs. PM, are you not guarded by men with guns? Why is your life more valuable?"

I voted for Trump and continue to support him. I read nothing into his discussion with her about the buyback. I, too, if I could have a conversation, would be "interested." Not supportive. Not considering it. But "interested." Trump is the best POTUS perhaps in my lifetime or longer, but he will lose if he promotes any real gun control and we will get a Democrat. He must surely know that.
Seems the people of NZ are challenging her indirectly...

From the article:

The prime minister noted that citizens have turned over approximately 20,000 firearms and 70,000 parts. Authorities estimate that there are 1.2 million to 1.5 million firearms of any type in the country, as GunsAmerica previously reported.

Suppose that 20,000 figure doubles by the December deadline, that would mean that 40,000 firearms would be “returned,” or less than four percent of the firearms in circulation.

What she not saying is that only less than 4% have complied and the rest have basically given her and their government the middle finger.
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Old 09-27-2019, 06:11 PM
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The ONLY way to handle illegal/immoral decrees forcing one to forfeit their very defense, ignore and refuse to comply; they can't find them all nor jail them all IOW they bluffed and lost. The people win!
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Old 09-27-2019, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
If the point of the right to bear arms is to stand against the government.

Then it is also the right to shoot up a school.

Because who is going to stop you? The government?

If you support irresponsible people owning guns, cherry picking responsible gun use no longer works as an argument. Because there is no limit on what someone with the right to a gun can use a gun for.
Ummmm, no.

It was perhaps put best by Abraham Lincoln, who knew a thing or two about Civil War:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abraham Lincoln
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or exercise their revolutionary right to overthrow it."
https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/a...lincoln_101160


The people have a right to own firearms. The right does not descend from the government. Ergo, the government cannot remove that right.

That said, there are also laws of the land which the people, broadly, through their legislators, have approved. The people are responsible to abide by those laws which they themselves have approved. If they behave irresponsibly with respect to the laws, then they will suffer whatever penalty is adjudicated by the Courts under the laws.

Ergo, people have a responsibility not to shoot up schools, etc.

The right to own firearms and the responsibility to obey the laws of the land are not incompatible.
Laws of the land that gun ownership is designed specifically to defend yourself from depending on whether the owner of that gun deems laws tyrannical.

I mean gun rights don't stop at overthrowing the government just for moral reasons. they could be for any reason or none. That is how a right works.


How apart from hopes and prayers do you hold people accountable to laws if they don't want to?
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Old 09-27-2019, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
If the point of the right to bear arms is to stand against the government.

Then it is also the right to shoot up a school.

Because who is going to stop you? The government?

If you support irresponsible people owning guns, cherry picking responsible gun use no longer works as an argument. Because there is no limit on what someone with the right to a gun can use a gun for.
You are intellectually retarded.
No.

Intellectually retarded is suggesting a right will just happen to conveniently be used for moral reasons.


Compare it to free speech.

If you have the right to free speech that means nobody can stop you telling the truth.

But also nobody can stop you lying either.

If I fight for free speech I would be fighting for people to do both. As much as I pretend or hpe everyone will use a right morally and responsibly. By defending that right I am also defending those who don't.

Gun rights because people use guns to defend their family is a lie by omission.

Because people also use them to shoot up schools.
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Old 09-27-2019, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by FalconsBravesHawks View Post
translation = knives and boomerangs kick ass!
Until you bring them to a gunfight.
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Old 09-27-2019, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
If the point of the right to bear arms is to stand against the government.

Then it is also the right to shoot up a school.

Because who is going to stop you? The government?

If you support irresponsible people owning guns, cherry picking responsible gun use no longer works as an argument. Because there is no limit on what someone with the right to a gun can use a gun for.
I've seen a lot of stupid stuff posted on the internet, but that one could get you a Nobel Prize in Dumbassery.
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Old 09-27-2019, 07:57 PM
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With freedom come RIGHTS

Freedom is not "safe" from the actions of others.

I'd rather live in a not safe freedom than to live in dangerous slavery!
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Old 09-27-2019, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Snyper708 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by FalconsBravesHawks View Post
translation = knives and boomerangs kick ass!
Until you bring them to a gunfight. [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.survivalistboards.com/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]
Exactly.

All you are arguing is scale.

So you own guns because the police can't protect you. But if someone misuses guns that is illegal and the police will protect you.

Which is the same as not owning and having the police protect you.

Except you are going to be hard pressed to kill 40 people with a boomerang.

Now because you own guns and expect the police to protect you. You empower the police with much more authority, and much more fire power. So any freedom guns gave you is then taken away by the need to employ counter measures.

And because your argument basically collapses on itself. It needs to be broken in to parts and shifted around so nobody ever connects the whole thing.
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Old 09-27-2019, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Aceoky View Post
With freedom come RIGHTS

Freedom is not "safe" from the actions of others.

I'd rather live in a not safe freedom than to live in dangerous slavery!
(By the way notice I didn't semantically take your post as it is written and answered in the spirit it was meant.)

And freedom where people are being preyed upon isn't really freedom. That is a sneaky pretend freedom that people will try to sell you so they can more effectively prey upon you.
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Old 09-27-2019, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
If the point of the right to bear arms is to stand against the government.

Then it is also the right to shoot up a school.

Because who is going to stop you? The government?

If you support irresponsible people owning guns, cherry picking responsible gun use no longer works as an argument. Because there is no limit on what someone with the right to a gun can use a gun for.
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Old 09-27-2019, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
If the point of the right to bear arms is to stand against the government.

Then it is also the right to shoot up a school.

Because who is going to stop you? The government?

If you support irresponsible people owning guns, cherry picking responsible gun use no longer works as an argument. Because there is no limit on what someone with the right to a gun can use a gun for.
The point of the right to bear arms is to stand against tyranny, and not just the tyranny of government. People in America utilize firearms 2.5 million times annually against those who would victimize us. That number far exceeds the number of times that agents of the government stop a violent crime.

The United States was founded because of this tyranny, and appropriately responded as free men. Australia was founded as a penal colony, and it can be argued that your government still treats it's citizenry as inmates.

Only you would equate the legal and responsible use of anything as license to the use anything illegally and irresponsibly. If you truly support such, then you should also support the castration of all peoples before they reach puberty, to prevent both rape and promiscuity...Given your profound ignorance, I have little issue with you not afforded the opportunity to procreate.
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Old 09-27-2019, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
"...freedom where people are being preyed upon isn't really freedom. That is a sneaky pretend freedom that people will try to sell you so they can more effectively prey upon you."
You seem to be under the impression that "freedom" is a somewhat magical condition in which no injustice is done to anyone by another.

There is no human society in which predators do not exist.

Your "freedom" to swing your fist ends at my nose.

The devil is always in the definitions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
"..."How apart from hopes and prayers do you hold people accountable to laws if they don't want to?"
You've asked a profound question. (And I'm not being facetious.) How indeed?

You've actually struck precisely at the heart of the debate in the US today.

Those who are anti-gun believe the answer is by passing additional anti-gun laws.

Yet any thoughtful observer would note that murder and violent assault using guns is already illegal in the US. Use of guns for violent acts is already illegal as well. It is highly doubtful that making these acts *even more illegal* is going to have a calming effect on violent individuals with guns.

It's rather sad that legislators believe that by passing more laws, the behavior of criminals - who by definition are disinclined to obey laws - will be impacted. Its akin to a belief that if we are always nice to others, they will always be nice to us; or holding deep convictions about the Easter Bunny.

On a national level the matter can be debated endlessly, because in fact - as noted previously - there is no human society on any continent anywhere on this planet that is free from predation by violent predators. They might be confined after being caught, but they are "free" to commit their crimes unless and until they're taken into custody. The fact is that criminals do not obey laws, regardless of how many laws legislators insist on passing.

Which brings us to the heart of the matter, at least on an individual level:

'How you hold people accountable to laws if they don't want to" (obey them) is by ensuring you have an ability to defend yourself against their predation.

You persuade them to leave you in peace, either by threatening to shoot them, or by shooting them until they decide to stop attacking.

In the US, a claim of shooting someone else in self-defense doesn't mean you haven't broken the law, it serves to state your actions were nevertheless justifiable.

In an imperfect world, filled with predators who do not obey laws, it's about the best we're going to be able to achieve.
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Old 09-27-2019, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Snuggle Monkey View Post
In light of Trump's performance as POTUS so far I feel like there's a 50/50 chance he's either a Patriot or a gun grabbing TRAITOR. With the Candidates we have for 2020 that is clearly the very best option we have, as all the others have made it very clear they are 100% Globalist Traitor scum!

It doesn't really matter who the President is that illegally bans guns because the response will always be the same. Armed rebellion, hang the Traitor & reinstall the Constitution.

God bless America & DEATH to her enemies, foreign AND domestic.
Yeah right!


Why aren’t there armed rebellions in ban states?

Hilarious.
If Trump bans guns you all will be lined up first thing the next morning to hand in your guns to the Dear Leader.
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Old 09-27-2019, 10:54 PM
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Yeah right!


Why aren’t there armed rebellions in ban states?

Hilarious.
If Trump bans guns you all will be lined up first thing the next morning to hand in your guns to the Dear Leader.
I'll be lined up with my fellow patriots to give the bullets first, long before I hand in anything else.
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Old 09-27-2019, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Sockpuppet View Post
People in America utilize firearms 2.5 million times annually against those who would victimize us.
That numbers have been debunked years ago. Even Kleck backed off on those numbers. https://reason.com/2018/09/04/what-t...ys-on-defensi/
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Old 09-27-2019, 11:31 PM
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Please put the resident troll on ignore and stop quoting him and stop arguing with him and he'll just go away naturally.

Folks have gone round and round with him and he just doesn't understand freedom, liberty, and gun rights. He's a servant to the Queen or whatever jacked up psuedo state servitude government they have down under.
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Old 09-28-2019, 04:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
If the point of the right to bear arms is to stand against the government.

Then it is also the right to shoot up a school.

Because who is going to stop you? The government?

If you support irresponsible people owning guns, cherry picking responsible gun use no longer works as an argument. Because there is no limit on what someone with the right to a gun can use a gun for.
The point of the right to bear arms is to stand against tyranny, and not just the tyranny of government. People in America utilize firearms 2.5 million times annually against those who would victimize us. That number far exceeds the number of times that agents of the government stop a violent crime.

The United States was founded because of this tyranny, and appropriately responded as free men. Australia was founded as a penal colony, and it can be argued that your government still treats it's citizenry as inmates.

Only you would equate the legal and responsible use of anything as license to the use anything illegally and irresponsibly. If you truly support such, then you should also support the castration of all peoples before they reach puberty, to prevent both rape and promiscuity...Given your profound ignorance, I have little issue with you not afforded the opportunity to procreate.
Where are your statistics from?

And legal responsible use isn't a right. That would be a privilege. Because then there would be laws that govern the use.
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Old 09-28-2019, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Sockpuppet View Post
People in America utilize firearms 2.5 million times annually against those who would victimize us.
That numbers have been debunked years ago. Even Kleck backed off on those numbers. https://reason.com/2018/09/04/what-t...ys-on-defensi/
Yeah sounded suspicious.
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Old 09-28-2019, 04:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Grotius View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
"...freedom where people are being preyed upon isn't really freedom. That is a sneaky pretend freedom that people will try to sell you so they can more effectively prey upon you."
You seem to be under the impression that "freedom" is a somewhat magical condition in which no injustice is done to anyone by another.

There is no human society in which predators do not exist.

Your "freedom" to swing your fist ends at my nose.

The devil is always in the definitions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
"..."How apart from hopes and prayers do you hold people accountable to laws if they don't want to?"
You've asked a profound question. (And I'm not being facetious.) How indeed?

You've actually struck precisely at the heart of the debate in the US today.

Those who are anti-gun believe the answer is by passing additional anti-gun laws.

Yet any thoughtful observer would note that murder and violent assault using guns is already illegal in the US. Use of guns for violent acts is already illegal as well. It is highly doubtful that making these acts *even more illegal* is going to have a calming effect on violent individuals with guns.

It's rather sad that legislators believe that by passing more laws, the behavior of criminals - who by definition are disinclined to obey laws - will be impacted. Its akin to a belief that if we are always nice to others, they will always be nice to us; or holding deep convictions about the Easter Bunny.

On a national level the matter can be debated endlessly, because in fact - as noted previously - there is no human society on any continent anywhere on this planet that is free from predation by violent predators. They might be confined after being caught, but they are "free" to commit their crimes unless and until they're taken into custody. The fact is that criminals do not obey laws, regardless of how many laws legislators insist on passing.

Which brings us to the heart of the matter, at least on an individual level:

'How you hold people accountable to laws if they don't want to" (obey them) is by ensuring you have an ability to defend yourself against their predation.

You persuade them to leave you in peace, either by threatening to shoot them, or by shooting them until they decide to stop attacking.

In the US, a claim of shooting someone else in self-defense doesn't mean you haven't broken the law, it serves to state your actions were nevertheless justifiable.

In an imperfect world, filled with predators who do not obey laws, it's about the best we're going to be able to achieve.
Freedom is increased with good rules. So the argument that people are magically more free because they own guns in a more violent society is just not true.

Giving society guns and then leaving them to fend for themselves doesn't stop crime.

We can see this in places like Sudan where kids walk around with AK's and yet they are significantly less safe and less free than either of us.

And of course this is because without a Good structure and free society guns don't make people equal.

The local gang with fifty guys will out fight your average gun owner. And so will be able to do whatever they want.

Shooting them isn't a successful option.

And take in to account I am talking things like background checks and mandatory training which would still let responsible gun owners shoot bad guys.

But these actions are resisted and badly argued against with the terrible logic of guns are somehow freedom.
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Old 09-28-2019, 04:43 AM
Snyper708 Snyper708 is offline
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Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
Exactly.

All you are arguing is scale.

So you own guns because the police can't protect you. But if someone misuses guns that is illegal and the police will protect you.

Which is the same as not owning and having the police protect you.

Except you are going to be hard pressed to kill 40 people with a boomerang.

Now because you own guns and expect the police to protect you. You empower the police with much more authority, and much more fire power. So any freedom guns gave you is then taken away by the need to employ counter measures.

And because your argument basically collapses on itself. It needs to be broken in to parts and shifted around so nobody ever connects the whole thing.
You have no grasp of reality.

You just keep stringing words together, pretending you're saying something that makes sense.

I suspect there is ETOH involved.
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