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Old 09-21-2019, 03:59 PM
Offrink Offrink is offline
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Turns out no. Had a woodchuck on the edge of a wood line 40-50 yards from the house. Been trying to get rid of this guy all summer. He ate my broccoli, cauliflower, and Brussels sprouts. I flushed him from that hole and he moved places. Decided my barn was a good place and burrowed under the ratwall and set up camp under my barn work bench. Set up traps and had a solid bite on one but it was only a single spring and he was a very large guy and escaped. That was 2 weeks ago. So today he popped out and I finally saw him. Took my shot out of a 2nd story window and with a 223 pistol with 60 grain of v-max running about 2,900+ FPS (out of an 18” barrel) and hit him perfect broadside. An inch behind the front leg. He flopped, popped up and started running to the wood line. Second shot was a spine shot that made him tuck and barrel roll and he laid flat out. Thought great, took off my muffs and policed my brass. Looked up and he was gone. Went out to check him out and found one drop of blood and 10 feet in a smear of blood on grass. He made it 20 yards in before he was down. Took 5 minutes to find him and he was still breathing and raised up on his front legs when he saw me. Shot twice more to put him down. First two shots never exited. I hope his insides were goo but I had better hopes for the round. If two good shots won’t put down a wood chuck I may have to move up to the 450 BM the next time. Is this the typical results?
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Old 09-21-2019, 04:08 PM
Snyper708 Snyper708 is offline
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I'd have to say the shot placement wasn't as "perfect" as you seem to think.

I'd also suggest the bullet is meant to perform at rifle velocities.
Unless you're saying your "pistol" has an 18" barrel, the velocity you gave is meaningless.
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Old 09-21-2019, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Offrink View Post
Turns out no. Had a woodchuck on the edge of a wood line 40-50 yards from the house. Been trying to get rid of this guy all summer. He ate my broccoli, cauliflower, and Brussels sprouts. I flushed him from that hole and he moved places. Decided my barn was a good place and burrowed under the ratwall and set up camp under my barn work bench. Set up traps and had a solid bite on one but it was only a single spring and he was a very large guy and escaped. That was 2 weeks ago. So today he popped out and I finally saw him. Took my shot out of a 2nd story window and with a 223 pistol with 60 grain of v-max running about 2,900+ FPS (out of an 18” barrel) and hit him perfect broadside. An inch behind the front leg. He flopped, popped up and started running to the wood line. Second shot was a spine shot that made him tuck and barrel roll and he laid flat out. Thought great, took off my muffs and policed my brass. Looked up and he was gone. Went out to check him out and found one drop of blood and 10 feet in a smear of blood on grass. He made it 20 yards in before he was down. Took 5 minutes to find him and he was still breathing and raised up on his front legs when he saw me. Shot twice more to put him down. First two shots never exited. I hope his insides were goo but I had better hopes for the round. If two good shots won’t put down a wood chuck I may have to move up to the 450 BM the next time. Is this the typical results?
Seen plenty of dogs and 2 legged fools hit with M885 from 20inch barrels along with 14.5 inch tubes. Typical? Can't say. Seen it enough times in life to dump it for something with a bit more consistent terminal effects via rapid incapacitation .

Our problem critters here are a tad bigger than yours are, but the wife had shot them with 60gr SS from the windows if she catches them anywherrs close to her gardens. ( She wants them out of the gardens and doesn't wanna deal with dead carcuss either)

I prefer them dead before their bodies hit the dirt with one shot on a reliable and consistent basis, day or night, and anywhere from point blank in heavy brush out to open fields at 500 plus yards.

Note: 18.5 inch barrel rifle took all them critters in pics below.



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Old 09-21-2019, 07:02 PM
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I'd have to say the shot placement wasn't as "perfect" as you seem to think.

I'd also suggest the bullet is meant to perform at rifle velocities.
Unless you're saying your "pistol" has an 18" barrel, the velocity you gave is meaningless.
A 70 grain tsx runs about 2300 FPS out of a 7.5” barrel. So say at a minimum this round was going about 2400 FPS at the muzzle and at 50 yards maybe it was down to 2200 FPS. That should have been plenty to open and fragment the round which is what it was suppose to do. The surprise was that there was no pass through. At a speed that is to low for expansion would have penciled through and left .224” holes. It must have dumped a lot of energy to not pass through 10-12” of animal.
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Old 09-21-2019, 07:33 PM
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A 70 grain tsx runs about 2300 FPS out of a 7.5Ē barrel. So say at a minimum this round was going about 2400 FPS at the muzzle and at 50 yards maybe it was down to 2200 FPS. That should have been plenty to open and fragment the round which is what it was suppose to do. The surprise was that there was no pass through. At a speed that is to low for expansion would have penciled through and left .224Ē holes. It must have dumped a lot of energy to not pass through 10-12Ē of animal.
That goes back to what I originally said about shot placement.

I don't think it was the bullet that failed.

At 50 yards next time go for the head shot.
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Old 09-22-2019, 01:23 AM
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Were you able to recover the bullets? I would check Hornady's specs for the V-Max, to see if there is any stated minimum velocity required for fragmentation/expansion, and any velocity estimate for your barrel length. They do make a bullet similar to V-Max in their TAP line, shown here to give you some idea of performance out of different barrel lengths:

https://www.hornadyle.com/rifle-ammu...r-tap-urban#!/

They also make a couple heavier bullets actually intended for SBR use, which might translate to better performance out of a pistol if of comparable barrel length:

https://www.hornadyle.com/rifle-ammu...-gr-tap-sbr#!/

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/black#!/

Speer Gold Dot and possibly Federal Fusion MSR are supposed to deliver full expansion at lower velocities, down to 11" barrels. They are bonded soft points, and ought to get deeper penetration. Here is a 75gr Gold Dot retrieved from a water jug, out of a 16" 1:7-twist barrel:



Here is a 62gr Armscor bonded SP similar to Gold Dot that went through a simulated wall ("sandwiched" wood/sheetrock barrier of the same dimensions as my house's interior walls, equivalent to shooting through a stud the long way) and likewise retrieved from a water jug, from the same gun:



Compare those images to that of American Eagle 50gr varmint (polymer-tipped) in a water jug, without any barrier, same gun:



No, not shot into meat or anything approximately comparable to a woodchuck, but it does give you some idea of what various recovered bullets look like after expanding. A lot of SP bullets will shed their jackets but still "mushroom" respectably, while varmint bullets and some OTM or BTHP bullets practically disintegrate with very little penetration. Considering that .223 varmint rifles often have 20" barrels and slow(er) twist rates (my anti-varmint AR has a 20" 1:9-twist barrel) that are intended to get maximum velocity out of a fairly light bullet, I think it might be interesting to see what your V-Max bullets are actually capable of out of a short barrel.

All that being said, I would have still expected something the size of a woodchuck to perish quickly with almost any .223/5.56 round reasonably on-target. Could be that the penetration was so shallow as to fail to do serious internal damage.
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Old 09-22-2019, 07:36 AM
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What type of performance are you expecting?

Expansion?
Disintegration?

My varmint bullets move in excess of 3600fps.

If your looking for varmint bullet performance, you'll need to increase your velocity, in a 223, you're limited especially with a 60gr bullet.

Go to a lighter offering. In a 223 I prefer Speer 50gr SP, there are a number of manufacturers that make really good varmint bullets in lighter offerings.

In an 18" barrel with a 223, you can get the velocity up to 3200-3300fps with 50grs or less.

This is one of the #1 reasons that I don't like the .223 cartridge being fired out of short barrel guns. You loose too much velocity due to the shorter barrel and next if you choose heavier bullets, you loose even more and they don't always expand properly

If you want red mist from varmints......velocity is the key!
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Old 09-22-2019, 08:50 AM
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.22-250 is the way to go. 55Gr bullet @ 3500 fps+.
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Old 09-22-2019, 09:11 AM
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I agree that an increase in speed would be vastly improved destruction. The two reasons I chose it were to see what I should expect in a real life shooting and being able to move through heavy brush if I needed to put him down. I have plenty of other bullets (Speer, Barnes, hornady, etc) to reload for So I can dabble with a custom round.

I expected to see more of a complete incapacitation immediately and hoped for a pass through. No bullet was recovered because I wasn’t going to dig through the guts of a woodchuck in heavy brush with wasps swarming the woodchuck in the time it took me to find it. Maybe I’ll look at it in a month when there is nothing left.
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Old 09-22-2019, 09:16 AM
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I've taken 6-7 groundhogs from my garden all with .22lr, some out of 24" and others with 16" barrels and using either CCI quiets, CCI quiet segmented, and Aguila sniper subsonic.

Some shots dropped the groundhogs where they stood, others crawled a bit and one was "lost" (Died under a neighbors shed) after showing me how athletic a groundhog can be...which is shocking.

Shot placement certainly matters, but I have also noticed the different rounds have slightly different performance and so do the barrel lengths it would seem (but its a small sample size to compare).

While I'm happy using a .22lr for the job, and it works as long as I shoot right, ideally I'd like a larger round for the job...if I ever get a suppressor I want to go up to either a 9mm for the job or possibly a .300 blackout, or bigger?

As it is the rounds I listed especially out of the longer 24" gun are near "suppressed" sounding.
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Old 09-22-2019, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Offrink View Post
I agree that an increase in speed would be vastly improved destruction. The two reasons I chose it were to see what I should expect in a real life shooting and being able to move through heavy brush if I needed to put him down. I have plenty of other bullets (Speer, Barnes, hornady, etc) to reload for So I can dabble with a custom round.

I expected to see more of a complete incapacitation immediately and hoped for a pass through. No bullet was recovered because I wasnít going to dig through the guts of a woodchuck in heavy brush with wasps swarming the woodchuck in the time it took me to find it. Maybe Iíll look at it in a month when there is nothing left.
Sometimes small critters just don't want to die immediately

I'll tell you that from experience!


I'm a fan of high velocity, magical things happen when your bullet leaves the muzzle at over 3000fps, whether it's thick or thin skinned critters

Choose the right bullet though because what works well at close range might not work to well at long range and vice versa

Part of the magic in the original M16 was the fact that the bullet reached 3200fps at the muzzle and the 55gr bullet, even though it was FMJ created a buzz saw effect when it hit at that velocity. The long boat tail bullet aided in this effect because it lost stability but that's another story!
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Old 09-23-2019, 12:02 PM
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Ive been using 55 gr Nosler BT's over 25 grains of 4895 (right around 3000fps out of a 16" barrel) for a couple of decades now. Very accurate, and Ive never had anything wander off after being shot with them. In fact, most things turn into meat grenades when shot with them, especially the bunnies and cats.

Ive shot a number of chucks with them, with instant results. While they are heavier skinned than the rabbits and other lighter skinned critters, and arent as dramatic on the explosive impact end, they were generally just mush under their skin, and were DRT on the spot.

If youre wanting the meat, they arent what you want to use. Its literally hair, teeth, and eyeballs, all over the yard. The lighter-skinned critters actually "pop" like a balloon when you hit them.
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Old 09-23-2019, 10:01 PM
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Turns out no. Had a woodchuck on the edge of a wood line 40-50 yards from the house. Been trying to get rid of this guy all summer. He ate my broccoli, cauliflower, and Brussels sprouts. I flushed him from that hole and he moved places. Decided my barn was a good place and burrowed under the ratwall and set up camp under my barn work bench. Set up traps and had a solid bite on one but it was only a single spring and he was a very large guy and escaped. That was 2 weeks ago. So today he popped out and I finally saw him. Took my shot out of a 2nd story window and with a 223 pistol with 60 grain of v-max running about 2,900+ FPS (out of an 18” barrel) and hit him perfect broadside. An inch behind the front leg. He flopped, popped up and started running to the wood line. Second shot was a spine shot that made him tuck and barrel roll and he laid flat out. Thought great, took off my muffs and policed my brass. Looked up and he was gone. Went out to check him out and found one drop of blood and 10 feet in a smear of blood on grass. He made it 20 yards in before he was down. Took 5 minutes to find him and he was still breathing and raised up on his front legs when he saw me. Shot twice more to put him down. First two shots never exited. I hope his insides were goo but I had better hopes for the round. If two good shots won’t put down a wood chuck I may have to move up to the 450 BM the next time. Is this the typical results?
Odd.

I have anchored chucks with Eley SSHP at 75yds with the exact shot you describe.

Bad luck, is what I would chalk it up to.
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Old 09-23-2019, 10:23 PM
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In my experience while not my favorite round the 6O grn Vmax my buddy reloads does a pretty good number on coyotes and ground hogs out of either my M-4 or my Ruger Mini-14.
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Old 09-24-2019, 01:41 AM
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I once shot a ground hog in the eye, I mean, I nailed that shot, and it still ran around for almost a minute until I could get it to stand still and hit it again.

Turned out the bullet went in one eye and out the other. Seriously. No lie.

Point being...sometimes your perfect shot isnít so perfect.

And no, Iíve never managed to make that shot again despite trying to do it nearly every time I can.
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Old 09-24-2019, 02:42 AM
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I once shot a ground hog in the eye, I mean, I nailed that shot, and it still ran around for almost a minute until I could get it to stand still and hit it again.

Turned out the bullet went in one eye and out the other. Seriously. No lie.

Point being...sometimes your perfect shot isnít so perfect.

And no, Iíve never managed to make that shot again despite trying to do it nearly every time I can.
I once shot a squirrel like that.

It seemed to take forever for him to fall out of the tree, and then he just started swimming around. (I was hunting from a boat in a creek/swamp)

I think he finally drowned by the time I got to him.
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Old 09-24-2019, 07:15 AM
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Headshots tend to get things flopping around a good bit, and even though a clean kill, often dont appear to be.

Ive had a couple of things look like Chinese acrobats jumping all over the yard for a little bit after being shot in the head. The "show" didnt last long though.
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Old 09-24-2019, 09:46 PM
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Have hunted for years using 223. Dumped it altogether for much better hunting cartridges.

And.......None of the critters in below photos went anywhere after being hit .

All taken with 308 Win. All were dead before thier bodies landed in the dirt.

2 pics show the exit wounds. Last pic shows entry wound.

Pic one = 168gr OTM at over 100 yards.
Pic 2 = 150gr Win power point at around 25 to 30 feet.
Pic 2 = 165gr SGK at around 75 yards.
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Old 09-25-2019, 02:51 AM
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I think your beloved and revered .308 may be overkill in this varmint discussion.

I mean Iím sure it will work...but jeepers. .308 at 120 feet on a 3 lb critter? Youíd get blood mist and other bodily crap on your scope.
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Old 09-25-2019, 07:42 AM
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How about using just a standard 55 grain soft point? I know out of my 18” barrel it gets about 2950 but how much reduction do you get out of a 10.5 or 7.5” barrel? I know you wouldn’t get the massive expansion of a Varmint load or even a hollow point but would it even expand much with such a small critter?
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