Any Brits here? How is Brexit going? - Page 2 - Survivalist Forum
Survivalist Forum

Advertise Here

Go Back   Survivalist Forum > >
Articles Classifieds Donations Gallery Groups Links Store Survival Files


Notices

Advertise Here
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-12-2019, 09:56 AM
Snuggle Monkey's Avatar
Snuggle Monkey Snuggle Monkey is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Somewhere between the sacred silence & sleep
Posts: 3,831
Thanks: 12,113
Thanked 8,163 Times in 2,671 Posts
Default



Advertise Here

Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_Rafe View Post
You might not realize this, but the EU is saying: they can do what they want. We're not going to invade the UK, are you completely daft? THE UK IS THE ONE WHICH IS STALLING, ASKING FOR EXTENSIONS, LOOKING FOR BETTER DEALS THAN WHAT THEY HAVE NOW AS A MEMBER STATE. The EU is just waiting for them to make up their mind, and shifting stuff away from the UK.
As I already said, I DON'T EXPECT THE EU TO HAVE ENOUGH SACK TO DO ANYTHING. I agree with you the problem is with the UK's corrupt scum bag leadership who are remoaners & have been dragging their feet.

The best deal the UK can get is NO DEAL & simply walk away. Trade agreements can be negotiated later just as foreign trade agreements are established between nations everywhere. It is not in the EU or the UK's best interests to refuse to trade but, the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU. Does the EU produce ANYTHING that the UK can't get from the US, China, India or the entire rest of the NON-EU world?
Quick reply to this message
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Snuggle Monkey For This Useful Post:
Old 09-12-2019, 10:02 AM
Sorry-no-clues's Avatar
Sorry-no-clues Sorry-no-clues is offline
Hiker
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: England
Posts: 717
Thanks: 177
Thanked 1,282 Times in 490 Posts
Default

If we want to understand what's happening in UK and the rest of Europe, we need a good grasp of history. May I recommend the history of Britain from 410-650 AD, and from 1620-1660, plus, of course, the history of the US from 1850 to 1870.

In 410 the Roman Empire left Brittania. There was a threat from external barbarians, but the Brits fought amongst themselves and hired some barbarians to defend them against..other barbarians. The Britons split into small kingdoms and were ultimately driven out of their heartland by the Saxons, which ushered in the Dark Ages. Total dead? Who can tell?

In 1622 the English king decided he could rule without Parliament. This didn't go well. In 1642 a civil war began, and in 1649, having lost, the king had his head cut off about a 10 minute walk from Parliament. Total dead? About 10% of the adult male population.

In the 1860's it was established that a federal country had no space to allow constituent parts to make their own laws on anything that really mattered to the central authority. Total dead? Maybe 700,000.

And then of course there's 1940, when, for a few months, Britain stood alone against tyranny, with no allies who were not occupied by the Nazis or had not already surrendered. This is also part of our national legend. Unlike almost every country in Europe, we have nothing to be ashamed of for the period 1939-1945.

From which I conclude:

1. Without a clear existential threat (the Warsaw Pact) Europeans are weak and lazy, and will not bother to defend themselves. Furthermore, when the problems get too difficult, people will make the wrong choices, based on local rather than overall need. This will lead to the break-up of the United Kingdom, at least. A significant part of public opinion in Scotland is determined to leave the UK, and many people in England would help them pack. This is a Bad Thing for the West.

2. The English don't like being governed by a king. They also don't like not having a king, hence the return of Charles II in 1660. England developed a bizarre constitution, based on a house of cards, with each piece of separate legislation being dependent on another, and the whole edifice depending on 'nice-chapmanship'. It doesn't work if someone thinks they can get away with something that will be to their advantage; we all have to play by the same rules. This isn't happening now, which leads to conflict. Our society isn't as violent as it was in 1640, neither is it as well armed, but there will be a few broken heads before this situation is resolved. This is also a Bad Thing, as it means that democracy in UK is under more threat than it has been since Cromwell.

3. The USA didn't develop a strong central government until consent had been given from ALL the states. In many cases that consent had to be obtained using violent force. The EU has not obtained democratic consent for its role as a central government, making laws that apply to every citizen of every Member State. The armed forces of the EU are so puny that they cannot impose their will on reluctant Member States; however, every financial crisis has a silver lining if you world for Brussels, and countries will surrender in their turn, just like Greece and Ireland did, and Italy shall too, eventually. Who decides which issues the several states shall control, and which shall be controlled by the federal government?

Forgive me for rambling. This is a complex issue, with deep roots.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Sorry-no-clues For This Useful Post:
Old 09-12-2019, 11:27 AM
IC_Rafe IC_Rafe is offline
Perspective provider.
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Europe
Posts: 4,221
Thanks: 11,870
Thanked 5,715 Times in 2,594 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snuggle Monkey View Post
As I already said, I DON'T EXPECT THE EU TO HAVE ENOUGH SACK TO DO ANYTHING. I agree with you the problem is with the UK's corrupt scum bag leadership who are remoaners & have been dragging their feet.

The best deal the UK can get is NO DEAL & simply walk away. Trade agreements can be negotiated later just as foreign trade agreements are established between nations everywhere. It is not in the EU or the UK's best interests to refuse to trade but, the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU. Does the EU produce ANYTHING that the UK can't get from the US, China, India or the entire rest of the NON-EU world?
But you're implying that the EU will forcefully hold control of the UK, which is just utter bull****. We're letting them leave however they want. We're not interested in an armed occupancy. We don't need "enough sack to do anything", because we don't even want to do anything. The EU respects the right for the UK to withdraw. It doesn't think it's a good idea, and so do most people here and atleast 49% of the UK population, but they're free to do what they want. We're not holding them in.

I completely agree that they can fix their tradedeals after, which is the whole problem actually, since now they negotiate with the strength and market of the EU behind them. Then they'll get deals fit for a small market in a big world.
Here's the summary of the US trade objectives for a post brexit UK: https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files...Objectives.pdf . Reading through that should give a clear indication on how the US would negotiate new trade deals with the UK.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to IC_Rafe For This Useful Post:
Old 09-12-2019, 01:58 PM
FerFAL's Avatar
FerFAL FerFAL is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,625
Thanks: 231
Thanked 5,136 Times in 1,649 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snuggle Monkey View Post
As I already said, I DON'T EXPECT THE EU TO HAVE ENOUGH SACK TO DO ANYTHING. I agree with you the problem is with the UK's corrupt scum bag leadership who are remoaners & have been dragging their feet.

Dear god you just dont get it do you.
EU can DESTROY UK in a matter of days simply by stopping the trucks that flow in every day full of food, medicines and vital supplies.
Quote:
The best deal the UK can get is NO DEAL & simply walk away. .....
Does the EU produce ANYTHING that the UK can't get from the US, China, India or the entire rest of the NON-EU world?
FFS!!!
Quick reply to this message
Old 09-12-2019, 02:07 PM
Sorry-no-clues's Avatar
Sorry-no-clues Sorry-no-clues is offline
Hiker
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: England
Posts: 717
Thanks: 177
Thanked 1,282 Times in 490 Posts
Default

Oh, bless you. You think an embargo like that is NOT an act of war. Anyway, it’s been tried before, in 1800, 1916 and 1940. Didn’t work then. Why should it work this time?
Quick reply to this message
Old 09-12-2019, 02:17 PM
FerFAL's Avatar
FerFAL FerFAL is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,625
Thanks: 231
Thanked 5,136 Times in 1,649 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorry-no-clues View Post
Oh, bless you. You think an embargo like that is NOT an act of war. Anyway, it’s been tried before, in 1800, 1916 and 1940. Didn’t work then. Why should it work this time?
Its not an embargo, you need to look up that word because you clearly dont know what it means. Leaving without a deal means no EU country is under any obligation to deal with you anymore.
Oh, and the world has changed a bit since 1940, good luck feeding your population with Twinkies, chlorinated chicken and hormoe pumped beef shipped from Australia.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to FerFAL For This Useful Post:
Old 09-12-2019, 04:46 PM
Hick Industries's Avatar
Hick Industries Hick Industries is online now
Live Secret, Live Happy
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Eastern Oklahoma
Posts: 14,238
Thanks: 17,664
Thanked 34,649 Times in 9,716 Posts
Default

Stewart Varney interview Brits about this question. It appears that many of the members of parlement who represent districts that voted to support Brexit, are not supporting proposals to leave. They are not behaving like a representative. Kinda like many in the US Congress.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Hick Industries For This Useful Post:
Old 09-12-2019, 05:10 PM
Moccasin's Avatar
Moccasin Moccasin is offline
Mod Certified PITA!
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 10,841
Thanks: 31,045
Thanked 18,483 Times in 7,092 Posts
Default

I have a question for any Brits here. It's one of those 'what's would happen if' things that only someone knowledgeable in the system could answer. It goes like this:

Parliament has passed a law that there can not be a no-deal Brexit and directed Prime Minister Johnson to get a deal or ask for an extension to the Oct. 31 deadline. Johnson has said he would rather be dead in a ditch than ask for another extension, and the EU is saying the deal they reached with Theresa May is it. Parliament is prorogued and won't be back until a week or so before Oct. 31. If Johnson sits on his hands and does nothing - does not get a deal, does not ask for an extension - can Parliament do anything before Oct. 31 to prevent a crash out? I'm sure they can no-confidence him, bring down the government, and try to get a new one up, but can it be done in time? How much of a disaster would this be? And can they put Johnson on trial for breaking the law?
Quick reply to this message
Old 09-12-2019, 05:22 PM
Snuggle Monkey's Avatar
Snuggle Monkey Snuggle Monkey is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Somewhere between the sacred silence & sleep
Posts: 3,831
Thanks: 12,113
Thanked 8,163 Times in 2,671 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post

Dear god you just dont get it do you.
EU can DESTROY UK in a matter of days simply by stopping the trucks that flow in every day full of food, medicines and vital supplies.

FFS!!!
The EU is not the only source of food & medicine in the world. You are living in a dream world if you think the EU could destroy the UK.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Snuggle Monkey For This Useful Post:
Old 09-12-2019, 05:54 PM
FerFAL's Avatar
FerFAL FerFAL is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,625
Thanks: 231
Thanked 5,136 Times in 1,649 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snuggle Monkey View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
[IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.survivalistboards.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/IMG]
Dear god you just dont get it do you. [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.survivalistboards.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/IMG]
EU can DESTROY UK in a matter of days simply by stopping the trucks that flow in every day full of food, medicines and vital supplies.

FFS!!! [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.survivalistboards.com/images/smilies/rofl.gif[/IMG][IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.survivalistboards.com/images/smilies/rofl.gif[/IMG]
The EU is not the only source of food & medicine in the world. You are living in a dream world if you think the EU could destroy the UK.
Its not the only source but it is the closest , cheapest and safest, all thanks to the EU you hate so much. For three decades trucks full of fresh, subsidized food have been rolling into UK non stop, 40% of the food you consume. If you think you can all of a sudden do without that you are clinically insane.
And by the way, of course the EU would crush UK if they would go to war. Not that there would be any need. They havent left yet and they are as divided as they've ever been, much closer to a civil war than a war with the EU.
Quick reply to this message
Old 09-12-2019, 06:59 PM
real wowwee's Avatar
real wowwee real wowwee is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: N. Atlanta
Posts: 6,238
Thanks: 14,815
Thanked 12,609 Times in 4,111 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
Just curious, why are you against 28 sovereign nations working together under the European Union, yet you dont have no problem with 50 non-sovereign States under the thumb of one central federal government.
wrong skippy, they are 50 sovereign states. That why we are called These United States, not THE United States. And we have lots of problems being under the thumb of one central federal government.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to real wowwee For This Useful Post:
Old 09-12-2019, 08:09 PM
Snuggle Monkey's Avatar
Snuggle Monkey Snuggle Monkey is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Somewhere between the sacred silence & sleep
Posts: 3,831
Thanks: 12,113
Thanked 8,163 Times in 2,671 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
Its not the only source but it is the closest , cheapest and safest, all thanks to the EU you hate so much. For three decades trucks full of fresh, subsidized food have been rolling into UK non stop, 40% of the food you consume. If you think you can all of a sudden do without that you are clinically insane.
And by the way, of course the EU would crush UK if they would go to war. Not that there would be any need. They havent left yet and they are as divided as they've ever been, much closer to a civil war than a war with the EU.
The EU doesn't even have an army & if they tried to order their vassal sates to pony up their own militaries against the UK, it would be met with refusals & more states breaking away.....& hopefully the US would stand up for our Brothers & Sisters across the pond in their quest for independence & Freedom.
Quick reply to this message
Old 09-12-2019, 08:58 PM
Steverino's Avatar
Steverino Steverino is offline
Sam Adams was right....
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: SillyCon Valley
Posts: 7,902
Thanks: 3,269
Thanked 17,761 Times in 5,262 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
So what you're saying is, you dont know how to read.
I posted a response, how you took that as a personal attack is beyond me...

I wish the mods would give strikes for personal attacks... it would keep people on topic and civil

Since you can't be expected to act civilly, and will instead personally attack me for simply posting a response... that only demonstrates your intolerance... and gets you ignored...


enjoy your ignorance...
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Steverino For This Useful Post:
Old 09-12-2019, 10:05 PM
Hick Industries's Avatar
Hick Industries Hick Industries is online now
Live Secret, Live Happy
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Eastern Oklahoma
Posts: 14,238
Thanks: 17,664
Thanked 34,649 Times in 9,716 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
Its not the only source but it is the closest , cheapest and safest, all thanks to the EU you hate so much. For three decades trucks full of fresh, subsidized food have been rolling into UK non stop, 40% of the food you consume. If you think you can all of a sudden do without that you are clinically insane.
And by the way, of course the EU would crush UK if they would go to war. Not that there would be any need. They havent left yet and they are as divided as they've ever been, much closer to a civil war than a war with the EU.
Dint you learn anything about picking a fight with Great Britain?

Without Nato, Europe is a sunstandard police force, and America will always side with GB.
I expect the Canada, Austrailia, New Zealand, and India would side with GB too.
Between us, I believe we could manage to feed the British.

But if you pick a fight with GB, you can kiss off Nato covering you, meaning you become Putin's Butt Monkey.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Hick Industries For This Useful Post:
Old 09-13-2019, 02:08 AM
FerFAL's Avatar
FerFAL FerFAL is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,625
Thanks: 231
Thanked 5,136 Times in 1,649 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hick Industries View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
Its not the only source but it is the closest , cheapest and safest, all thanks to the EU you hate so much. For three decades trucks full of fresh, subsidized food have been rolling into UK non stop, 40% of the food you consume. If you think you can all of a sudden do without that you are clinically insane.
And by the way, of course the EU would crush UK if they would go to war. Not that there would be any need. They havent left yet and they are as divided as they've ever been, much closer to a civil war than a war with the EU.
Dint you learn anything about picking a fight with Great Britain?

Without Nato, Europe is a sunstandard police force, and America will always side with GB.
I expect the Canada, Austrailia, New Zealand, and India would side with GB too.
Between us, I believe we could manage to feed the British.

But if you pick a fight with GB, you can kiss off Nato covering you, meaning you become Putin's Butt Monkey.
Start by figuring out how to not starve to death if you no longer get 40% of the food currently imported from the EU.
Then pick up a calculator and do your numbers again. The question was can UK beat the entire EU and the anwer is no it cant, thats retarded.
https://youtu.be/WMpDn9VIDLM
Quick reply to this message
Old 09-13-2019, 02:15 AM
FerFAL's Avatar
FerFAL FerFAL is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,625
Thanks: 231
Thanked 5,136 Times in 1,649 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steverino View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
So what you're saying is, you dont know how to read.
I posted a response, how you took that as a personal attack is beyond me...

I wish the mods would give strikes for personal attacks... it would keep people on topic and civil

Since you can't be expected to act civilly, and will instead personally attack me for simply posting a response... that only demonstrates your intolerance... and gets you ignored...


enjoy your ignorance...
You posted quotes that proved your own statements to be wrong. Instead of getting offended by a simple joke you could have just recognized that your assumption was mistaken. But good luck with ever accepting such a thing, right?
Lets stick to our ignorance and keep babbling about EU being a tirany, its countries not being sovereign States, while claiming that US States are soveregin States, even if none of that is true.
Quick reply to this message
Old 09-13-2019, 02:22 AM
FerFAL's Avatar
FerFAL FerFAL is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,625
Thanks: 231
Thanked 5,136 Times in 1,649 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snuggle Monkey View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
Its not the only source but it is the closest , cheapest and safest, all thanks to the EU you hate so much. For three decades trucks full of fresh, subsidized food have been rolling into UK non stop, 40% of the food you consume. If you think you can all of a sudden do without that you are clinically insane.
And by the way, of course the EU would crush UK if they would go to war. Not that there would be any need. They havent left yet and they are as divided as they've ever been, much closer to a civil war than a war with the EU.
The EU doesn't even have an army & if they tried to order their vassal sates to pony up their own militaries against the UK, it would be met with refusals & more states breaking away.....& hopefully the US would stand up for our Brothers & Sisters across the pond in their quest for independence & Freedom.
Youre talking personal suppositions of yours, what ifs and wishful thinking. The statement was that UK could beat the EU and thats simply not true given forces each side has. EU 27 has had no problem in dealing with Brexit as a unified block and present a reasonable leave deal while UK is ripping itself apart unable to agree on what they want. I wouldnt keep underestimating the level of understanding and cooperation within the EU.
Quick reply to this message
Old 09-13-2019, 02:53 AM
FerFAL's Avatar
FerFAL FerFAL is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,625
Thanks: 231
Thanked 5,136 Times in 1,649 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by real wowwee View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
Just curious, why are you against 28 sovereign nations working together under the European Union, yet you dont have no problem with 50 non-sovereign States under the thumb of one central federal government.
wrong skippy, they are 50 sovereign states. That why we are called These United States, not THE United States. And we have lots of problems being under the thumb of one central federal government.
Shared sovereignty, thats why you have to put up with the federal government at all. Otherwise you could ignore it or just leave the union like UK claims it wants to do (but doesnt actually go through with it 🙂 )
Quick reply to this message
Old 09-13-2019, 06:59 AM
Sorry-no-clues's Avatar
Sorry-no-clues Sorry-no-clues is offline
Hiker
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: England
Posts: 717
Thanks: 177
Thanked 1,282 Times in 490 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
Its not the only source but it is the closest , cheapest and safest, all thanks to the EU you hate so much. For three decades trucks full of fresh, subsidized food have been rolling into UK non stop, 40% of the food you consume. If you think you can all of a sudden do without that you are clinically insane.
And by the way, of course the EU would crush UK if they would go to war. Not that there would be any need. They havent left yet and they are as divided as they've ever been, much closer to a civil war than a war with the EU.
If you think that the EU would stop suppliers selling to the UK, then ...that's a trade embargo. Why would any sane person suggest that? The EU might set up trade barriers to make it impossible for UK to sell to the EU. But, as I'm sure you're aware, it's a big world, with lots of people selling stuff. Of course there would be difficulties and dislocations, but we'd cope. Don't use words like 'destroy' if you mean 'inflict temporary and minor economic difficulty'.

The EU could crush the UK militarily if they all worked together. You'd have to use the French, Polish, Romanian, Dutch, Italian and Spanish amphibious capability to seize a beach-head, then use the French and Polish forces to develop the bridgehead and conquer the rest of the country. I think we can disregard the Bundeswehr, after the contribution of the next President of the European Commission. The amphibious force would amount to maybe a division at best. While you were getting this ready we would, of course, be looking the other way, drinking tea and chatting about the cricket.

I suppose you could try a special forces operation to seize the Channel Tunnel and then drive across to Folkestone, at short notice, but by the time the Poles had driven across Germany with their armoured divisions we might have noticed a sudden influx of undocumented immigrants in green suits. Or maybe not. Who knows what chaos a No-Deal Brexit could unleash?

Maybe you could do an airborne operation to seize Heathrow. Fly in a bunch of infantry in airliners and expand from there. Could work. Do it on a Sunday, when the RAF are having the day off.

You see, standing together in a trade negotiation is one thing. Putting together a 27-nation coalition to fight an aggressive war against a nation that doesn't give up easily, and is better armed than nine tenths of the countries on your side, while your victim fails to notice your preparations, requires the kind of deception plan that the D-Day planners could only dream of.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Sorry-no-clues For This Useful Post:
Old 09-13-2019, 07:11 AM
Sorry-no-clues's Avatar
Sorry-no-clues Sorry-no-clues is offline
Hiker
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: England
Posts: 717
Thanks: 177
Thanked 1,282 Times in 490 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
Shared sovereignty, thats why you have to put up with the federal government at all. Otherwise you could ignore it or just leave the union like UK claims it wants to do (but doesnt actually go through with it 🙂 )
They're not allowed to leave the Union, or ignore it. A precedent established in the mid 1860's.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Sorry-no-clues For This Useful Post:
Reply

Bookmarks



Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Survivalist Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Gender
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright © Kevin Felts 2006 - 2015,
Green theme by http://www.themesbydesign.net