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Old 08-28-2019, 08:39 PM
wallacengineering wallacengineering is offline
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Default Military Based/Inspired SHTF Firearms Loadout



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Hello, new to the forums! Ive been noticing the trend of really bad events here in the United States and have decided to become some what of a prepper for a SHTF/WROL situation.

Note: This is a long thread, explaining my choice of arms and why, as well as realistic use in a SHTF situation.

Im not a complete noob to firearms, I have a conceal carry, and have several friends who have served in our Armed Forces and have taught me a thing or two, and even let me shoot some of their rifles. However, I am very novice, especially when it comes to rifles.

I have been doing quite literally hundreds of hours of research over the past few weeks, becoming more and more aquatinted with the world of firearms, and I believe I have finally reached a point where I am ready to make a few purchase decisions as far as firearms go for a tactical, capable, and lightweight loadout. Unfortunately, I am still completely noob about optics and accessories for my arms, so I was hoping you guys could help me make selections based on the fact that I am Right-Handed with a Handgun but am unable to close my left eye for aiming.

Primary Arms:

Tactical CQB type Rifle - Primary Weapons Systems MK111 MOD 2-M 7 11.85" Barrel Pistol chambered in 7.62x39mm. This selection was made after searching through literally hundreds of YouTube reviews on AR-15s, AKs, and .308 battle rifles. I shyed away from the 5.56 NATO round almost immediately. Reports from our military and other militaries suggest the the round simply isn't strong enough. If you think about a firefight, especially when your enemy is prepared, they will take cover and employ tactics, possibly even body armor, to help them succeed. You have to remember, a LOT of people in the United States own powerful rifles as well as body armor these days, thanks to our fairly lax gun laws. At first, this led me to 7.62x51 (.308) battle rifles, based off the fact that they are fairly widely used in militaries as well as the most common hunting round in the United States, making scavenging ammunition very plausible in the event I run out, although in much smaller quantity than the 5.56x45mm for obvious reasons. Eventually, I settled on the 7.62x39mm for its balance of power between the two other calibers. Also, because of its very quick powder burn, it has a much lower loss in FPS percentage when used in Short-Barrel and Pistol-Length Rifles. This pretty much makes the 7.62x39mm the ultimate round for CQB situations under 200 meters, the most likely senario by FAR. The PWS MK111 takes these facts and uses them to build what I would honestly say is probably the greatest CQB Pistol/Rifle build of all time. This thing puts the Traditional AK, AR-15, AR-10, and even Military Bullpups to shame. It weights an incredible 6.0 LBs unloaded and collapses down to just 28" long without even a folding stock, while still being able to deliver 2,200 FPS (barrel velocity) 125-grain shell straight into a Watermelon reliably at 300 meters away. You can try to tell me there is a more impressive CQB compact option out there, but Ive looked over roughly 500 AKs and ARs from all over the globe, and have yet to find anything that comes close. Hunting larger game was also a consideration when making this decision as well as ammo scarcity in a SHTF situation.

Accessories? Well I need your guys guidance with that. I know that I want a low power 1.0X-2.0X or variable power 1-4X scope with large, clear 30+mm glass for supreme awareness, also able to run well with night-vision goggles. I also want a Sling, Foregrip, Flashlight/Strobe combo, and Supressor. I want the accessories to be as lightweight as possible so long as the optic is durable and the foregrip can accept at least two fingers comfortably with spacing. I can't see any situation within an SHTF situation requiring multiple mag dumps, so compactness and lightweightness is by far the priority. I do enjoy the idea of a holographic optic but I have seen the issues with battery life.

When Ammo Runs Out: A powerful, yet lightweight crossbow. Still researching this. I dont have a clue about crossbows. Could use some input on this. It would need a decent optic at the very least, possibly a flashlight.

Secondary Arms:

Side-Arm Handgun - CZ P-10 F (Supressor Ready Model). There are plenty of great handguns out there so feel free to put in your opinions, but I like the CZ for its long 5.1" barrel and 21+1 extended magazine capacity, all in a fairly lightweight package for what it is. Obviously the chambering will be 9mm for its popularity and superior ballistics to its larger caliber brothers, even if it doesn't have the greatest knock-down power.

Accessories? Again, I need assistance. A lightweight Supressor, lightweight Flashlight/Strobe combo, and possibly a lightweight Red-Dot Optic.

Other Secondary Firearm: How about a lightweight little .22LR Pistol/Carbine/Sub-Gun to keep in the backpack sitting next to 1000 rounds of ammo for almost no weight at all? Try the Kel-Tec PLR-22! A 26 round capacity little plinker gun with a fairly impressive 10.2" supressor-ready barrel in a 2.8 Lbs package? Whaaaaaat? Yea, this little thing is the perfect back-up gun to toss in the hands of a family member or friend who would otherwise be unarmed. I can't see any reason to equip any accessories besides a Supressor and possibly a Red-Dot Optic. I could haul the gun and 1000 rounds of ammunition at a total of roughly 15 lbs, thats INSANELY good!

Non-Projectile Secondary Weapon: I am looking for a bladed weapon with certain characteristics which I have not found yet. A sort-of Ultra-Lightweight, longer than a knife yet shorter than a Katana mini-sword thing. Maybe like a Tanto but lighter? I need help with this as well.

So, my Patrol setup? Level 3 or 3+ body armor setup with helmet, night-vision goggles mounted on helmet ready to be deployed. MK111 slung over, carried in a way similar to the military. 45 or 60 round extended magazine loaded and inserted, chambered round with safety on until I see or hear something suspicious. 4x standard 30-round magazines on a mag-pouch. Side arm CZ P-10 holstered with loaded 21-round Mag, no chambered round. 2 Spare 21-round Mags on a mag pouch. Short Sword in waist holster. This me a total of roughly 240 rounds shots on me in patrol at a very reasonable weight, able to engage any target at any realistic distance with extreme prejudice and accuracy, all while being completely silent, massively lowering the risk of alerting other possible nearby danger.

Anyways, I know that was very long, but Im not kidding when Ive been researching this like crazy. When Im not working, Im watching or reading firearm and survival reviews and tips, and its been like this for the past 3 weeks lol.
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Old 08-28-2019, 10:07 PM
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do you have a shorter version???
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Old 08-28-2019, 10:11 PM
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`

I see JDY has a new account!

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Old 08-28-2019, 11:47 PM
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Just...... No.
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Old 08-28-2019, 11:51 PM
wallacengineering wallacengineering is offline
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@rjsixgun I actually don't own any of these yet. Right now Ive just got a Taurus 9mm for concealed carry and its kind of junk so Im looking to upgrade it, thinking about an HK VP9-SK LE edition. But this is the loadout I have invisioned to start building.
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Old 08-29-2019, 12:12 AM
273andme 273andme is offline
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I'll play........

1st you argument for 7.62 v. 5.56 is flawed. Dont take that me as saying 5.56 is superior round by any means. Pick you poison based off what you think is best for your situation. below is why I think you augment for the 2 calibers is irrelevant.
-7.62 is easily stopped by the same armor that will stop 5.56 unless you are talking APM which you are screwed either way. different armor is designed to stop different threats. no armor will stop everything some will stop 5.56 and not 7.62 some will stops 7.62 and not 5.56.

-IMO I would rather take shot placement and the extra rounds for the same or less weight in a SHTF scenario. this will aid in suppressing the enemy in your so called firefight.
- good shot placement > body armor.

- If you enemy is hiding behind cover you can break contact or maneuver closer for a better shot.

-the military primarily uses 5.56 there are billions upon billions of rounds. In SHTF I would prefer my weapon to utilize the round that will be most readily available. Yes the military uses 7.62 but not anywhere near as much and 5.56.

-you might want to research military performance of your rounds because mk262 at ranges exceeding 600m is pretty lethal again that will fall into your training and shot placement. there are also other rounds that perform well out of 5.56 at distance.

-your speaking of what you call CQB ranged <300m 5.56 will wreck you world out to 300m and even further. It also allows for faster follow on shots due to minimal recoil.

next accessories....
- you dont need a strobe lol. You also dont need a million lumen and candela I run a 350LMN surefire and I think is plenty bright for what i would need in SHTF. I am contemplated getting a cloud defensive OWL to eliminate the wire on my SF but my SF and optic use the same batteries.

- holographic sight does use more battery than a RD how ever they are faster on target and offer a wider field of view IMO. I pack extra rechargeable batts and small solar charger.

-adding a suppressor on to you 28" weapon is going to make your rifle roughly 35' but that is about the same for any AR platform unless you are running an extremely short barrel.

your cross bow and bolts. ---- remember you have to carry all of this.

your "secondary firearm" I dont believe there is such a thing as you can typically only operate 1 firearm at a time that would make what ever firearm you are operating your primary. your pistol is a side arm not a secondary. but pick something you can should that is reliable. while suppressors are cool ( i own a few) I dont see much use for one on a pistol in a SHTF situation. Im not playing hitman. i woudlnt say it a necessity or even close to the top of the list.

-suppressors only quite the gas expansion exiting the barrel. All the other noise the gun and round make are still loud. it will make you harder to locate with a rifle. but if you arent seen why engage in the 1st place?


Now you 22 I would consider a secondary to use for small game again a suppressor for what? its not a defensive weapon, I mean it could be a last resort but then why would you need to suppress you sound as a last resort?


where do you plan on keeping all this ammo 1k rounds for this 1k rounds for that i hope you dont have to ever walk very far in a SHTF situation. I know you mention other things further down but Im trying to go piece by piece.

a bladed weapon--- a knife is a good tool, are you a ninja? planning on getting into a sword fight? to you have hand to hand or blade combat training under your belt?

your patrol set up---
body armor i think is good but when you add it to all the other BS you want to carry i think you should review everything as a whole. have you ever work body armor for an extended period of time? there is no such thing as comfortable body armor.
-helmet with NV set up another heavy thing to lug around. takes up space energy needs batteries. again are you used to running around wearing that have you ever worn that for an extended period of time?

-45-60 round mag for what. takes up more space . the benefits dont out weight the cost carry and extra mag. have you ever carried a rifle with 60 rnds of 7.62? thats over 3lbs of ammo. thats over 3 extra lbs you have to hold up to aim and fire

-30rnd magazine is not standard for 7.62 20 is. but 4 30 rnd mags you say 180 rnds? for SHTF? not sure where you get 240 unless you are including you pistol rounds?

-short sword? how do you supposed you get to a short sword on your waste wearing body armor?

you can engage any target and any range with any weapon.

-extreme prejudice? lol I think you watch a lot of movies

- obviously you have never used a suppressor and have watched a lot of James Bond

Im at work but so things like this pass time lol. thanks for passing the time. I think you should go back to the drawing board.
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Old 08-29-2019, 12:19 AM
273andme 273andme is offline
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what are you gonna eat? how are you gonna get rid of the diarrhea you get from eating things and having no clue what you are eating? how are you gonna take care of all the blisters scraps and abrasions you will ultimately get?

More importantly what the heck are you gonna drink? how you gonna keep warm or dry?

no one is perfect or prepared for everything but Ill give you the benefit since you only have 1 post and Im bored at work.

Ill be back for more entertainment after lunch.
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Old 08-29-2019, 12:20 AM
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just give me the high-lights or the cliff notes of your post. it is way to long to read.

I skimmed threw most of it. but if youre looking for a good, fast handling and reliable 7.62x39 rifle, just get an AK-47, chop the barrel down to about 14 inches and weld on an AK-74 type muzzle brake to bring it back to 16 inches.

for 223, just chop and weld an AR carbine......it will be the same as an M4.

its a better option than these silly pistols with a arm brace. You can legally make a 14 inch rifle if you weld on a 2 inch muzzle brake! short barrel real stock!
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Old 08-29-2019, 12:21 AM
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So how much Walking Dead did you watch before making this list? Sword is beyond useless. If you would of said hatchet, tomohawk or machete we could atleast argue fieldcraft work for building shelter or firewood.

I never shot that exact keltec gun but have 2 different ones and can say they have awesome ideas but the engineering and durability is lacking. I would not pick a keltec.
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Old 08-29-2019, 12:35 AM
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This took a fun turn when you brought up crossbows.

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Old 08-29-2019, 01:06 AM
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The thing about planning or engineering is that sometimes you can take something too far or kind of in the wrong direction because of misinformation given to you, the designer.

I served 19 months in combat in the paratroopers in Viet Nam. I've used a lot of different weaponry in the field under combat conditions. From everything I know and have experienced, I would never opt to choose ANY kind of pistol for my main or primary firearm. There are many things you learn in combat that you try to relay to other people and hope it helps them before they need to learn a lesson the hard way or get killed trying to learn.

Here's what I am going to suggest: #1. Keep what you have now. Don't throw it away or dispose of it yet. At this point, you have something which puts you ahead of the majority of people who have zero.

#2. Go back to YouTube and study Keanu Reeves, the actor who plays in all the John Wick movies, and watch what he does for his training program. He does a lot of speed shooting using a Glock 34 pistol and a .223 caliber rifle. He double taps everything, is fast and is very accurate too. Watch his videos about 6 times. Then watch what Halle Berry went through with him too at that same range.

#3. Study 3 gun shooting videos. These videos involve people using pistols, rifles and shotguns in timed competitions. These shooters are also into speed events.

#4. Sign up for some rifle training classes after you get a decent rifle. Make sure that your class is specific to your type of rifle. For example if you get an AK type rifle in 7.62 X 39 make sure that your class is set up for that rifle. Same thing for if you get an AR or M-4 clone type rifle.

#5. Do some research on SUSAT and ACOG rifle sights. I can tell you right now, if you're planning to use a 7.62 X 39 pistol for a primary firearm, you're going to be lunch meat for some predator out there with a decent rifle set-up. Urban warfare, or MOUNT Operations as the military calls them, is the worst kind of fighting a person can engage in anywhere at anytime. Read up on the Battle of Stalingrad from WW2. That battle was one of the most brutal in the entire history of mankind. Now imagine that you're armed with an AK pistol like yours and you're going up against some guys armed with AK and AR rifles that have civilian equivalents of SUSAT and ACOG scopes. You are NOT going to have a nice day at all. That's pretty much why our troops are kicking so much butt overseas right now. We, our forces, have a technological edge to go with our tactical edge. When you compound both, a technological edge and really good tactical training, the other guys are going to be hurting.

I think that you made a good, decent choice in your rounds of ammunition for possible urban area combat, as in fleeing from such combat and general survival purposes, but the barrel length is lacking for longer range shooting accuracy. That's why you might want to consider something like an AK style rifle, say an Arsenal or other type, that would use the ammo you already have on hand. Since Glock pistols are the most common pistol being used by police and military have you thought about using one of them? If so, a good Glock 19 is a model that I would suggest you consider because they will accept both the longer magazines used in Glock 17 pistols and the shorter Glock 19 magazines too.

Good luck with your project.
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Old 08-29-2019, 02:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herd Sniper View Post
The thing about planning or engineering is that sometimes you can take something too far or kind of in the wrong direction because of misinformation given to you, the designer.

Good luck with your project.
Herd, first I got to say, THANKS! I know we don't agree on much and I'm the president liberal **** head around here but I love reading what you have to say and respect the hell out of you for both your knowledge and experience. There is literally not a post that I read of yours (outside of politics) that I do not learn something.

Sorry, all done brown-nosing now.


OP this is a great post with some solid info. You should follow what it says and I'll only add, maybe you want to get a training class or two by someone who knows what they are doing with a rifle.

It could save your life.
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Old 08-29-2019, 04:56 AM
wallacengineering wallacengineering is offline
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@273AndMe: Well, food and supplies are for a different topic area on this website, and I will be posting in those areas as well as soon as I have a place to store supplies. I do not own a home, I rent a room right now because I am a truck driver and am hardly home anyways. Im also not planning on purchasing any of these firearms at this time, Im only upgrading my current concealed carry as I do not have the space for a gun safe. This is basically a "prototype" or "planning" stage for me. Im 27 years old and I have never prepped before, I am entirely new to all of this.

Yes, I entirely agree that the 5.56x45mm NATO round is far more common than the 7.62x39mm. However, there are so many AK enthusiasts in the USA that while I may not be able to scavenge as much ammunition, I am confident that I can at least find enough to have a few shots on me at a time after burning through my original stash.

I chose 7.62x39mm for a number of reasons. Firstly, the ballistics and muzzle velocity of 7.62x51mm NATO and 5.56x45mm NATO are massively affected by use in barrels shorter than 16 inches. Of course, 7.62x39mm is also affected in terms of ballistics by the shortening of the barrel, but nowhere near as badly as the other two calibers. This is why the Maxim Defense PDX was originally designed with 7.62x39mm in mind, and then the 5.56x45mm was added on further in development.

Secondly, when fired from short barrels under 12 inches, the 7.62x39mm tends to take over in penitration ability thanks to the massive drop off in velocity for the 5.56x45mm and much smaller bullets that don't carry as much energy. Its been well known in the world of firearms for some time now that the 5.56x45mm is the accurate and longer range round while the 7.62x39mm is the superior CQB and stopping power round. Come on man, I learned that when I was 12 years old lol.

@EVERYONE ELSE

For those of you who think that this is an overkill setup, please remind yourselves that this is actually considered a pretty typical loadout for patrolling your established community in an SHTF senario. A Rifle, Side-Arm, and Blade with a moderate amount of spare magazines. What exactly is so odd about that? Thats the most basic loadout of even the lowest ranking infantry in any military around the world. Yes I will obviously carry a few MREs and bottles of water on patrol just in case but again, this is NOT the supplies section of the forums lol. Remember, this is PATROL, that means providing security for your CAMP, which you stay nearby. There are plenty of people who are trying to say they want to take 3-5 rifles and 5 handguns with 5000 rounds of ammo with them and its like "Are you serious dude? You want to try and sling like 200 LBs of weapons and ammo all over the place with you? You realize you wont even make it a few hundred yards, right?" So yea, cool your jets, this is far from impractical. The 7.62x39mm is a bit heavier than the 5.56x45mm and that sucks for ammunition supply weight. However, the fact is Im quite weight efficient running just 2 calibers of firearms, 3 if I am lucky and can squeeze the PLR22 and some rounds into a Bug-Out Backpack or duffle bag.
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Old 08-29-2019, 04:59 AM
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Oh I forgot to say, @HerdSniper and @ZumHug, thanks for the info, I will look into it for sure at some point. I am expecting firefights to be engaged at less than 200 meters, most often below 100 meters. Pretty sure 12" in 7.62x39mm will have no issue with hitting accurately in just about any realistic SHTF combat situation. I can see how a longer rifle would aid in accuracy and distance for sure, however this isn't a military battle, this is civilians living in the wilderness, trying to survive the meltdown of society or a massive ecological disaster. I would be surprised if accuracy shooting ever occured outside of hunting.

This is actually why I considered the SCAR 17S in 7.62x51mm/.308 for some time as my primary rifle. Its actually quite light for what it is and has been shot accurately out to 1000 yards rarely, 750 yards somewhat, and 600 yards consistently. This, and the ability to effectively hunt large game makes the SCAR 17S the absolute most effective SHTF firearm on the planet if it weren't for the massive overall bulkyness of the rifle and weight of the .308 round, hindering it quite badly as an SHTF primary weapon.
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Old 08-29-2019, 06:53 AM
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Well then, you just have it all figured out now....Carry On....Smartly

and yes a scar 17s is hands down the best choice for SHTF given all the proprietary parts and limited availability you should buy one. because its the only rifle that can be shot accurately at 1k yrds. So is it quite light or hindered by its bulkiness?
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Old 08-29-2019, 07:20 AM
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I shoot the S*** out of 7.62nato and it is not bulky or a hinderance at all.
Scar 17 or LWRC Reper
Get an ELcan spector Optic. 1.5x-6x's are awesome

I have a PWS in .300 blackout. It is my dirtiest piston gun due to the way that the piston system is made. It is also has just as much recoil as the Scar 17 or Lwrc Repr AR10.
I agree with your assessment of need to penetrate cover. BUT-
With the 7.62nato I can shoot farther.
Well you did ask our opinions... and then nobody agreed and you are stuck defending your postition. Let me suggest if you like the AK round get a Galil and have your AK and AK round but also get yourself a USA caliber rifle. Either 5.56 or 7.62nato are a good choice for SHTF. It is all based upon a lot of scenarios. I have both. I am still trying to figure out when and why I would grab my Scar16/5.56 rifle. Maybe when I run out of 7.62nato. Or MAYBE if I am on a scavenging mission and need to hoof it light. But other than that I'm sticking to my larger caliber for patrol.
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Old 08-29-2019, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 273andme View Post

-your speaking of what you call CQB ranged <300m 5.56 will wreck you world out to 300m and even further. It also allows for faster follow on shots due to minimal recoil.
WITH proper shooting you can engage out past 800 and no hasty follow up shot is required ... with a good 7.62X51/.308
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Old 08-29-2019, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 273andme View Post
Well then, you just have it all figured out now....Carry On....Smartly

and yes a scar 17s is hands down the best choice for SHTF given all the proprietary parts and limited availability you should buy one. because its the only rifle that can be shot accurately at 1k yrds. So is it quite light or hindered by its bulkiness?
Yea honestly the SCAR 17S only weights 8 LBs naked, making it one of the lightest production Semi-Auto .308 rifles in the world, but its actual physical size is a bit bulky. Big grip, big rail, big lower and upper assemblies. Its not terrible by any means but they probably could have slimmed it down a bit. But yea, thanks to a full 16" barrel and fairly heavy loaded magazine, I could see a SCAR 17S easily hitting over 12 LBs even with a lightweight config.

I love the SCAR 17S. Yea, parts may be a bit rare to come by but there is a following in the USA, and besides it's a SCAR. I've never heard of one breaking to begin with, especially if you do your maintenance. No matter the rifle I plan on a few basic spares anyways. If it weren't for .308 ammo being so heavy, the gun being so bulky, and no need for 500+ meter shots outside of some rare hunting needs in SHTF, I would take it over the PWS any day of the week.

Thats just the thing, and most SHTF preppers have agreed - theres absolutely no need for a long range weapon in SHTF outside of hunting. Sniping has been accepted as a "mythical fantasy", that it would never really happen in a realistic senario. Even in SHTF Hunting, shots outside about 250 meters is probably never going to happen, and the PWS can take care of 250 meters no issue at all with a bit of practice. So while it would be nice to have a rediculous amount of range and the ability to pierce just about any cover or armor an assailant might be using, it's just not really realistic or practical to try and setup a massive .308 rifle as my primary. If I can own both someday, then great. I have no idea how I would slug around a whole nother rifle and a whole nother stash of ammunition with me in SHTF though. Im pushing it as is if I want to try and bring a Crossbow with somehow (not patrol, more of roaming around and trying to find a safe place.to set up camp).

In case any of you are wondering, the accepted realistic limits for 11.5-12.5 inch rifle/pistols in 7.62x39mm in general are the following:

- 500 yard shots have been made but its tough and not doable by the average shooter
- 300-350 yards is considered the realistic maximum for these types of rifles/pistols.
- Killing potential is limited to about the same 300-350 yard realistic maximum range
- 3X rapid-succession mag dump tests have been performed on the PWS and only after 80 rounds does the barrel tend to get pretty hot
- PWS uses a long-stroke piston gas system with components very similar to the original AK-47, making it just as reliable as the original
- PWS has adjustable gas-level for supressed and adverse operation, making it even more durable
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Old 08-29-2019, 11:29 AM
Jack Swilling's Avatar
Jack Swilling Jack Swilling is offline
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The best gun out there
FN SCAR 17
I want two
Do not want to burn that much $$$
But that is what I would pick
They do not break
Yes I know everthing breaks, but they are beyond Glock/AK durability/reliability

As for the rest of it, way too much for me to condsider right now
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Old 08-29-2019, 12:07 PM
wallacengineering wallacengineering is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
The best gun out there
FN SCAR 17
I want two
Do not want to burn that much $$$
But that is what I would pick
They do not break
Yes I know everthing breaks, but they are beyond Glock/AK durability/reliability

As for the rest of it, way too much for me to condsider right now
Exactly, SCARs are just about the greatest rifles ever built. A truly modern marvel of a military battle rifle, but for me its just too big.

Cost isn't too much of a concern. I only ever want to own the 1 or 2 rifles, I'm certainly not a gun collector like some you see who own like 10 rifles and 20 handguns, absolutely not. This means I can spend more on quality over quantity. My Bug-Out firearms are going to pretty much be my only owned firearms besides my concealed carry H&K VP9-SK LE.
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