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Old 08-23-2019, 05:23 PM
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Aerindel Aerindel is offline
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Originally Posted by Late2Prep View Post
I don't understand.

How can a concept be outdated?

The Scout was supposed to be a grab and go option for most circumstances.
Not a target gun, not a true fighting rifle, but it could do these things.
The concept is great. Its how he was trying to implement it. With current optics there is no need for a forward mounted scope, you can achieve the same thing, better, with an illuminated 1-4x scope, nor does the gun need to be a bolt action as we now have many lightweight and reliable semi-autos.

I would even say the idea of a light, compact, scoped rifle has become the most popular template in the current gun world, just not in the way cooper envisioned it.
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Old 08-23-2019, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerindel View Post
The concept is great. Its how he was trying to implement it. With current optics there is no need for a forward mounted scope, you can achieve the same thing, better, with an illuminated 1-4x scope, nor does the gun need to be a bolt action as we now have many lightweight and reliable semi-autos.

I would even say the idea of a light, compact, scoped rifle has become the most popular template in the current gun world, just not in the way cooper envisioned it.
I would agree. The concept is still sound with what he wanted to achieve, but technology is just offering different ways to do it. I think he was right about the lighter weight and you can see it with many of the lighter semi-auto designs as well as many of the lighter bolt guns for those mountainous and high-country stalking.

With a red-dot, you do give up some accuracy at longer distances, but with a good set of younger eyes, I was easily hitting man-sized silhouettes out at 300 meters.

Where I think technology has made a difference is in optics. While I have and can use those IER/EER scout-style scopes, you get just as much speed a far more versatility with several lighter 1-4 (even 1-6) scopes with pretty close to being a true 1x and most with red-dot option that is almost as fast as a true RDS. They give you fast acquisition and speed on lower powers with the red dot and excellent field of view and much more precision potential on the higher powers.

I still think we have a lot of innovative room to still cut weight. I love my naked-weight POF Revolution that's 7.5lbs; however once you add a 1-4x scope, mount, and sling...the scales jump to over 9.5 pounds. And that's with the lightest/quality red-dot, LPVO 1-4x scope I could find under $1000.00. Carbon fiber is proving very robust and a great option to continue dropping rifle weight. I would like to see an AR-styled rifle under 6 pounds, as once you add optics/mount and sling, it will add enough weight to help soak up recoil.

Concept is still valid, but the I think the purpose has evolved to encompass more than Cooper's original scope of the concept.

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Old 08-23-2019, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by 7.5x55 Swiss View Post
I've been reading about Jeff Coopers scout rifle concept for a while, and even went so far as to get myself a Ruger Gunsite Scout several years ago with the plans of turning it in to a scout rifle and that never happened.

Now my views have changed on the concept and I am thinking that a bolt action rifle, while not limited in caliber selection is limited in all of the other criteria Cooper laid out in this modern time period where Semi autos are capable of the same level of accuracy as a good quality bolt action rifle all in a lightweight, compact, easy to shoot package.

I'm not saying bolt action guns don't have their uses, but I'm not seeing anything that a good quality semi automatic rifle in .308 or another cartridge like .270 or .300 Win mag (yes they exist for just a little over $1,000) can do compared to a Scout rifle.

Any argument that a bolt action rifle looks "less scary" than a semi auto is pointless because guns like the Browning BAR (not the machine gun), Remington 740/7400 and FN FNAR, ect. exist.

So those who prefer the Scout rifle concept over a semi auto in the same cartridge, I'm interested in hearing some of the benefits you think they have to offer.

Here's some info on the scout rifle concept if you don't already know what it is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_rifle
I really like my Ruger Gunsite Scout. I have a long eye relief handgun scope on it. There is no quicker scope for getting the target in the scope for me.
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Old 08-25-2019, 10:48 PM
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I've always been intrigued at the concept. So far, the closest I've come was putting red dots in forward positions on a couple of my lever guns.

I have the Holosun on my Marlin 1895.



I did my Rossi 92 a step further and even put a light on it making it a viable defensive rifle, at least for homestead, or wilderness use. I wouldn't take it to war, but I would face any bad guy or beast with it. The red dot here is the Sig Romeo 5. This gun is one of my absolute favorites, and it shoots wonderfully smooth, and accurate. 9+1 rounds (you can fit 10, just not easy) of .44 mag is a good medicine for anything around inside of 100 yds or so.



I finally decided to build (have built) a scout rifle more in keeping with the original intent. My Brazilian Mauser is at the gunsmith right now, and should be done by Wed at the latest. (or so I'm told) The 7mm round is strong enough to kill anything I'll ever shoot, yet is easier on my shoulder than a .308W. The barrel was shortened to 20" and fitted with a Surefire Warcomp, like several of my other guns, in preparation for the suppressor I dream of buying one day. This was kinda what prompted the build. That 29" barrel kept the damn thing from fitting in my gun cabinet... It will rest in a Hogue stock. I had him mill the rear sight base flat, and fit it with a section of rail I had left from another rifle, and replace the straight bolt with a bent one. Should be nice. I have a Vortex Crossfire II 2-7 x 32 on the way, but I could always go to a red dot again. I love those... Dying for this to be done.
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Old 08-28-2019, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyinID View Post
Cooper was certainly not opposed to the idea of a semi auto Scout, and said so. But nothing was available then that met his other requirements.



I agree the 9"+/- B/O is a very good weapon for many things, but still a little light for a general purpose rifle. He actually spoke highly of the M1 Carbine, other than it's underpowered cartridge, (though it wasn't as bad as many veterans thought it was.) I think he'd like the short barrel Blackout. Almost reminiscent of his Thumper concept. Different ballistically, but more useful in other ways, penetration, accuracy, longer range, etc.
I would agree with you regarding 300 blackout and it's limitations overall. Especially if one considers the requirement stating it should be capable of stopping a 1000 lbs critter with one shot out to 500 yards on a consistent basis. ( Its been awhile since I reviewed his scout requirements, but minimum accuracy = 4 inch groups at 200 yards) From my expietiences via year around hunting/ direct involvement in combat operations....300 BO, 5.56mm, and 7.62x39mm fall short of this requirement in any consistent light.

Note: The rifleman had to be capable of this with chosen stick from actual shooting positions.....so benchrest groups did not matter.

He also stated that his preferred fighting rifle is the BM59 and would be just as well off with an M14.

For a all purpose rifle, I prefer a rifle better suited for fighting ...and also works well for hunting...vs a " manually operated scout rifle"

The main reason as to why = the scout concept itself. ( A lonewolf type out in very rural/ remote wilderness surviving by what he can carry.) While it may sound fancy, I ruled it out as a real world survival strategy via first hand experience.

The more feasible/ practical concept I have chosen through trial and error revolves around a small group surviving as a team. With this in mind.....a "scout" rifle has less overall use when compared to a " scout squad" or " rural patrol " rifle in an all purpose role. ( One reason why the M1A scout squad is not and has never been considered as a true scout rifle ...although most incorrectly refer to it as such because of lack of knowledge it seems...lol)

I guess that one could say that I lean more towards " security" and a small group mentality where mutual support is the key to success. ...and at a cost of a larger footprint...vs....a sole survivor strategy.

As to overall weight of rifle which is often brought up......none in my group have a problem toting a semiauto in 7.62x51mm along ....and instead of a bolt gun chambered in the same.

Direct comparison = Ruger GSR stainless steel 18.5in bbl / XS rail vs M14S 18.5in barrel or M1A A1 Bushrifle/ ARMS 18 optics mount.

Dry weight:

GSR = 7.5 lbs
M14S = 8.5 lbs

Simply put, that 1 lbs of difference does not add up to diddly...and regardless of how far either is to be carried. I have done it with both rifles in very remote places at various altitudes, and also do this sort of thing for a living via the Infantry for over 2 decades.

Ie. .......A rifle that weighs 1 to 2 lbs more will not be a legitimate factor in makin or breakin any one person in any fashion worth noting.

The real factors are unbalanced rifles , weight in ammunition, optics, etc....., and overall weight via other equipment carried...especially if carried by inexpierienced folks that haven't learned how to properly disperse overall weight for a balanced load to begin with. ( See this often in the Army and even with " experience ed " personnel. ..or at least folks who claimed this.)

Ease of field maintenance goes to the GSR, while ease of use while firing goes to the M14S. The GSR also costs less overall, but M14 mags cost less than good quality GSR mags.

https://alphaindmfg.com/products.html

https://www.brownells.com/magazines/rifle-magazines/magazines/springfield-m1a-10rd-magazine-308-winchester-prod27330.aspx



Both tie when it comes to overall balance/ length/ and terminal performance on critters up to 1000 lbs out to 500y

11B
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Old 08-28-2019, 04:31 PM
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every time i come back to this concept i reach the conclusion that there are better ways to achieve the same thing today.
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Old 08-28-2019, 09:38 PM
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Are there any prism scopes with long enough eye relief to be mounted in the forward position ? This sounds like a perfect fit for a scout rifle considering the weight.
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Old 08-28-2019, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerindel View Post
The concept is great. Its how he was trying to implement it. With current optics there is no need for a forward mounted scope, you can achieve the same thing, better, with an illuminated 1-4x scope, nor does the gun need to be a bolt action as we now have many lightweight and reliable semi-autos.

I would even say the idea of a light, compact, scoped rifle has become the most popular template in the current gun world, just not in the way cooper envisioned it.
I am not a fan of the forward mounted scope but the rest of the rifle makes sense even today.

During a period of broke, Whirlibird loaned me a little Remingtom 660 .308 that was a pseudo-scout. The entire package weighed in at 6.5lbs.
I used it for almost a year, and with the 4x Leupold on top, there was little I couldn't hit out as far as I will shoot.
Around the house, the scope came off and an old Lyman receiver sight was put in place.

I have yet to find a semi-auto that compares to the handiness of that little carbine.
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Old 08-28-2019, 11:16 PM
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I think I already have the perfect rifle for this, Ruger model 788 in 308, Leupold Scope 2x7 two extra five round mags. Nice sling. Will shoot most ammo about .5 " all day. Iron back up sights still on it. Refinished the plain stocks with an oil finish. Light to carry, dead on accurate. If you have a chance to buy one of these rifles you should seriously consider it. I've shot two of them in diff calibers and both were dead on accurate. I think the Colonel would enjoy it very much.
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Old 08-29-2019, 11:57 AM
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I will say, if you want a defensive rifle in a place where an AR would cause drama but a hunting rifle would get along without raising eyebrows, it could be a good choice.
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Old 08-29-2019, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vodka Wizard View Post
I will say, if you want a defensive rifle in a place where an AR would cause drama but a hunting rifle would get along without raising eyebrows, it could be a good choice.

Or if you want a hunting rifle with a few extra features. Like a stock that can be adjusted for LOP (GSR), a detachable magazine, the ability to forward mount optics and a flash suppressor which can be removed and replaced with a suppressor, provided you do the class III paperwork necessary to get one.
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Old 08-29-2019, 01:36 PM
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My first attempt at a scout rifle. I used a family hand me down Brazilian Mauser (7x57) my father-in-law's uncle brought back from Italy in 1946.

Yes, I know that the collector purists will freak out... I have taken a numbers matching war bring back Mauser that doesn't have any import markings, and cut the barrel off... Fact is, this rifle has been in my wife's family for 70+ years, and hasn't even been fired in over 30 because nobody liked the stock or sights. Well, that's probably what happened to 75% of the bring backs. They became hunting rifles. Besides, if you have an original, it's now worth more... By not mounting a conventional scope, at least I can still see the Brazilian crest on the receiver ring.

I had the 29" barrel cut to 20" (wouldn't fit in my gun cabinet anyway) then fitted with a Surefire Warcomp to match my other guns, and so a suppressor can be used. The gunsmith just happened to have one Hogue stock left for a Mauser. I LOVE Hogue stocks. This, however prompted a change of plans. I was happy with the straight bolt, but the new stock has a cut out for a bent bolt, and it would look funny. Well, he also happened to have a bin full of bolt handles, so I told him to throw one on, but leave it in the white, and spray it with clear Krylon so it looks kinda like the original, and matches the receiver. Works real good. as soon as my hand leaves the gun, my fingers are right on the handle. Glad I got it.

Then I had him mill the rear sight base flat, and bolt down a leftover section of picatinny rail I had for a scope mount. Trying to cheap out and not buy the XS scout mount. My original idea was to have the mount fit through the factory top wood, but then I seen that Hogue stock, and lost it... I may get the XS mount anyway in the future just because this looks kinda clunky, with the Hogue, but it works. He has several Timney triggers left over that he tried to sell me, but I need to try it more as is first. Its does shoot smooth, just heavy. Haven't tried it yet with the new stock.

I ordered a Vortex Crossfire II 2-7x32 Scout Scope for it. This, I really have mixed feelings about, and all I've done so far is walk around with it in the woods on my property. At 2 power, boom, it's right there. At 3 or even 4, it's good, but at anything higher you have to start stretching your neck out to get closer to the scope. It's practically unusable at 7 power unless you're a giraffe. Now I understand If I'm taking a distant shot, I'll be taking my time anyway. No snap shot here, but it's damn uncomfortable, and may go back. Maybe a Leupold. Also thinking about just going red dot. I love red dots... Still undecided on sights yet. Waiting on more money, and looking for a rear peep that won't interfere with stripper clip feeding.

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Old 08-29-2019, 02:02 PM
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I'm trading an ak for another Ruger GSR and a Leupold 2.5x Scout scope. Might as well build a scout rifle off of it.
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Old 08-29-2019, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter View Post
Or if you want a hunting rifle with a few extra features. Like a stock that can be adjusted for LOP (GSR), a detachable magazine, the ability to forward mount optics and a flash suppressor which can be removed and replaced with a suppressor, provided you do the class III paperwork necessary to get one.
Not an AR fan here, but you can have everything listed above with one plus more. They are not the only semiautos that can feature all of these on your list either.

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Old 08-29-2019, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Vodka Wizard View Post
I will say, if you want a defensive rifle in a place where an AR would cause drama but a hunting rifle would get along without raising eyebrows, it could be a good choice.
We do quite a bit of hog erraddication around here, and have been invited to help clear pigs off of other's property. One property owner didnt want us using semiautos of any type ( although they make for the Better tool for this type of work).

My GSR filled in here.... Although it is not " set up" in any traditional scout package. More of a very simple to maintain in the field, stainless steel, bolt action hunting rifle .

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Old 08-29-2019, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Vodka Wizard View Post
I will say, if you want a defensive rifle in a place where an AR would cause drama but a hunting rifle would get along without raising eyebrows, it could be a good choice.
That was the inspiration for the modifications to this .44 mag Rossi... Something I could travel with to states (or Canada) where an AR was unwelcome. Here, I elected to forego the magnification altogether in favor of the faster red dot, as this is a 100 yds or less defensive gun.


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Old 08-29-2019, 10:18 PM
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In World War 2, Germany mounted the scopes forward on some Mausers......they learned the many short comings of mounting the scope wrong and went back to mounting it on the receivers...…..and never made that mistake again.
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Old 08-29-2019, 10:50 PM
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In World War 2, Germany mounted the scopes forward on some Mausers......they learned the many short comings of mounting the scope wrong and went back to mounting it on the receivers.....and never made that mistake again.
Having such a small scope on my rifle right now I would agree, but I can see the benefit of a forward mount for longer, high magnification scopes, which are out of the parameters of the Scout concept.

I don't have the Leupold scope on my rifle right now as I'll need picatinny bases, but I'm not sure it'll work how I want it to. I do have a 3.5x prism scope by Primary Arms on it and it seems to work for now, though I've yet to test it. I might try to upgrade to the 5x with better eye relief due to the longer tube, but will test the 3x out before that
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Old 08-30-2019, 09:17 AM
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best way to co-witness irons with a scoped bolt-gun? i'd love one of these with a ghost ring but an option to use the scope as well.
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Old 08-30-2019, 11:59 AM
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best way to co-witness irons with a scoped bolt-gun? i'd love one of these with a ghost ring but an option to use the scope as well.
I don't know without making the sights higher. On mine if the red dot, or scope goes out it needs to come off to use the irons.
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