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Old 08-08-2019, 12:45 PM
PigFarmer PigFarmer is offline
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I switched my daily carry about a year and half ago. Joined the dark side and went to an M&P 2.0 9mm from a Springfield Operator 1911. I don't regret it. I was a die hard 1911 guy and harbored unfounded bias for the the plastic fantastic Tupperware.

I'm as comfortable now with the M&P as I am with 1911s. It's accurate, reliable, lighter weight, and way higher capacity. Still carry my 1911s from time to time but more often than not you'll find Tupperware on my hip

Chris
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Old 08-08-2019, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by slackercruster View Post
Or sticking with the low cap 1911?
You ask this like I am stuck with only one choice. I'm not. It depends on what clothes I am wearing, concealed or, not and the possible threat level that I expect.

Sometimes I carry only my M&P .380BG or, Makarov, sometimes I have a 1911 and other times I have my XD-45, Mod2.

So, I guess my answer would be, "it depends".

Al
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Old 08-08-2019, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by AK103K View Post
So are these cops better off with a lower cap gun, or are we better off, from a safety aspect, that they have them?


Over the years, Ive shot with and against a lot of cops and military-trained shooters, and a lot of them were at best, borderline competent, and a number of them werent even that. A few were downright scary in their gun handling.
{snip}
Please, don't be a DA. I think you are smarter than that. Though you are giving me pause to reconsider.
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Old 08-08-2019, 02:01 PM
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Please, don't be a DA. I think you are smarter than that. Though you are giving me pause to reconsider.
So what? Make them Bobbies?


And Im dead serious about the gun handling thing. I had enough scares with former military people who swore they knew what they were doing, that I quit giving any of them a full mag in my MP5 on the first try, until they could show me they could handle it. Some scary **** right there!

Not everyone who was in the military is some sort of operator. Seems like a lot of them must have been cooks and clerks.
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Old 08-08-2019, 06:08 PM
AZ_HighCountry AZ_HighCountry is offline
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I would like to think you and I are on the same page. And yes, there are some cops I know who shouldn't have live rounds with their guns. And yes, I am serious. On the flip side, last time I was in London, the Bobbies I spoke with were armed with the following:

- Glock 22s
- H&K MP5s in .40S&W

I asked about that; why not 9mm? They rolled their eyes and basically said some stupid assed UK law about civilians not being allowed to have military issue weapons. That appears to apply to the police including London. So they were rocking .40 S&W.

I'll still stand by my statement; if you're not going to train, regardless of the method (paper, IPSC / IDPA, anything), then more ammo simply isn't going to solve the problem. Other than perhaps an accidental hit. Just look at most NYPD shootings. They do more damage sticking a toilet plunger handle up the ass of a suspect than they do shooting them. Now collateral damage they seem to be pretty good at.
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Old 08-08-2019, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Astronomy View Post
Agreed.

However, I meet damn few people with two guns on their body. Like I said, most folks carry for comfort of wear (smaller, lower capacity guns) despite a lot of bold talk about the bigger guns they leave in the safe. Very few carry full-capacity mags as their reloads either.

When I'm carrying a full sized USP, CZ SP-01, or 1911 (with 8-10 round mags)... I can just about bet I'm one of the very few in the crowd with that size of gun on tap. Or a light. Or two lights. Or a GSW mini-trauma kit on my person.

Most people hate carrying larger guns for daily CCW. I've met folks who thought a G19 was enormous... and immediately jumped on the current crop of very popular single stack baby Glocks, SIGs, etc.

Today, little guns sell like hotcakes for the same reasons they always have. People are satisfied to be merely armed. With anything that shoots. Preferably small and lightweight. Block checked and not a lot of further thought given.
But even that pocket 9 will likely suffice in most defensive shootings. Everything is a compromise.

And I'm saying that as one who's had an off duty shooting, who carried 1911's and full size steel revolvers with extra ammo, preaching to cadets and trainees to do the same. Carrying as you or AK103 do religiously is still to be commended. It reminds me to try and do the same, even if I don't always at this point in my life.

But these days I admit I'm just gratified to see more folks actually carrying, on their person, rather than leaving it under the seat or in the purse. A small 9 may not be ideal, but it at least meets Rule 1.


.


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Old 08-08-2019, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by AZ_HighCountry View Post
I would like to think you and I are on the same page. And yes, there are some cops I know who shouldn't have live rounds with their guns. And yes, I am serious. On the flip side, last time I was in London, the Bobbies I spoke with were armed with the following:

- Glock 22s
- H&K MP5s in .40S&W

I asked about that; why not 9mm? They rolled their eyes and basically said some stupid assed UK law about civilians not being allowed to have military issue weapons. That appears to apply to the police including London. So they were rocking .40 S&W
.
That one's news to me, since all I saw there was 9mm in handguns and MP5's, even if the patrol guys had semi auto versions.

Maybe a particular city chief put that policy into place or something, but everyone I saw had 9, including London Met cops.


.
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Old 08-08-2019, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by HappyinID View Post
That one's news to me, since all I saw there was 9mm in handguns and MP5's, even if the patrol guys had semi auto versions.

Maybe a particular city chief put that policy into place or something, but everyone I saw had 9, including London Met cops.


.
When were you there last. My last trip was 2010 and the conversation happened during a changing of the guard ceremony at Buckingham.
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Old 08-08-2019, 08:54 PM
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Colt 1911 & Commanders since 1980.
Gone now.

SIG P220 Elite in their place.
Glock 30 or 36 soon to join it...
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Old 08-09-2019, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by AZ_HighCountry View Post
I'll still stand by my statement; if you're not going to train, regardless of the method (paper, IPSC / IDPA, anything), then more ammo simply isn't going to solve the problem. Other than perhaps an accidental hit. Just look at most NYPD shootings. They do more damage sticking a toilet plunger handle up the ass of a suspect than they do shooting them. Now collateral damage they seem to be pretty good at.
Agreed. However, even for a competent shooter, more rounds does give more "cushion" and more options. Sadly, training rarely hits the advantage. I do think if you trained with less rounds in your magazine for "typical" shoot scenarios, you would focus more on accuracy, efficiency, and decision making. I'll say from my experience, he majority of service members are not very competent with handguns; even those issued a sidearm rarely do more than the mandatory 6/12 month qualifications which doesn't offer much in the way of "training". I'm pretty certain many LE fall in the same category.

Most competent shooters do more on their own time than just what's mandated, and I think those are typically the ones we associate more with...

ROCK6
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Old 08-09-2019, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post
Agreed. However, even for a competent shooter, more rounds does give more "cushion" and more options. Sadly, training rarely hits the advantage. I do think if you trained with less rounds in your magazine for "typical" shoot scenarios, you would focus more on accuracy, efficiency, and decision making. I'll say from my experience, he majority of service members are not very competent with handguns; even those issued a sidearm rarely do more than the mandatory 6/12 month qualifications which doesn't offer much in the way of "training". I'm pretty certain many LE fall in the same category.

Most competent shooters do more on their own time than just what's mandated, and I think those are typically the ones we associate more with...
Yup. we're on the same page. I've been around more than enough Regular Army and Marines and people on the AMU or MMU teams. Huge differences in shooting ability.

A couple of the agencies I am familiar with qualification is mandated once per year. And a couple of those guys wonder why I shoot better than them.

Again, it comes down to training. Adding ammo to make up for basic deficiencies doesn't solve the problem. It simply compounds it.
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Old 08-09-2019, 07:49 PM
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Again, it comes down to training. Adding ammo to make up for basic deficiencies doesn't solve the problem. It simply compounds it.
Absolutely and well put

ROCK6
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Old 08-09-2019, 09:59 PM
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When you consider how many times you hear of supposedly "trained" police dumping full mags and a reload in a fight, and at contact distances yet, makes you wonder sometimes if its training or just life.

Everyone likes to think they are expert shots, and shooting deliberately, slow fire, at a static target, they look like good shots, but add stress, movement, and less than perfect hits and a target thats not going down when you think it should, even higher cap guns can come up dry pretty quick.

I just never understood the thinking, especially with guns of comparable size, why having more onboard ammo is a bad thing? Who really thinks that?

If youre worried that they arent hitting with the high cap, how are they possibly going to make out with a lower cap gun? Makes no sense.

Capacity doesnt make you a better or worse shooter. You can either shoot or you cant.

Reality is, no matter how many rounds are in the gun, it takes exactly what it takes to solve the problem. The only real question then is, do you have enough?
THAT is why I shot IPSC competition for years.
Lots of movement
lots of varied targets at varied distances
lots of timed reloading pressure situations
lots of clock pressure

AND

I shot everything tactical instead of games-man (the difference is you engage a target as soon as you see it appears as opposed to running up to it at point blank range and hosing it down using nothing for cover or concealment.)
I shot using my duty gun out of my street gear instead of a race gun with cutaway rigs.

the only thing missing is the target shooting back at you.
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Old 08-09-2019, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by AK103K View Post
So are these cops better off with a lower cap gun, or are we better off, from a safety aspect, that they have them?


Over the years, Ive shot with and against a lot of cops and military-trained shooters, and a lot of them were at best, borderline competent, and a number of them werent even that. A few were downright scary in their gun handling.

I still dont see, or understand, how deliberately limiting yourself to lower capacity is a good thing. Especially in this day and age where most seem to be seeking the high caps.

If you can shoot, you can shoot well with any of them. Capacity, or lack of it, does not make you a better shooter. Time spent in regular practice does that.

With the higher capacity guns, you have the advantage of being able to stay in the fight longer, and without having to reload as often. So wheres the negative?

I have a number of 1911's, shoot them on a regular basis, carried one daily for a couple of decades too, and I know exactly what they are. Its also why Im no longer carrying one, and havent for over a decade now.

Theres nothing wrong with a good 1911 thats built to proper spec, and works.

On the other hand, its 100+year old tech, and things have progressed a bit since then.
IF YOU cannot stop the bad thing happening with 9 rounds, then a whole bunch more isn't gonna work much better when you are in spray and pray mode.

Also, I never considered the number of rounds in the gun as a " handicap" because it wasn't double numbers. 9 in the gun, 4 mags of 8, that is a lot of 230gr pellets at hand. Back when I was serious into training.. which spanned pretty much 30 years, I could keep all my rounds inside the K zone at 15 feet, while doing 3 mag reloads in under 15 seconds.
So, "low capacity" mags were not a problem.

Personally, I never liked the bulky feel of those double stack guns. On the other hand old slab sides fits perfectly and points naturally.
JMB was a true genius.
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Old 08-09-2019, 10:22 PM
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Or sticking with the low cap 1911?
Silly question.

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Old 08-10-2019, 07:49 AM
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IF YOU cannot stop the bad thing happening with 9 rounds, then a whole bunch more isn't gonna work much better when you are in spray and pray mode.

Also, I never considered the number of rounds in the gun as a " handicap" because it wasn't double numbers. 9 in the gun, 4 mags of 8, that is a lot of 230gr pellets at hand. Back when I was serious into training.. which spanned pretty much 30 years, I could keep all my rounds inside the K zone at 15 feet, while doing 3 mag reloads in under 15 seconds.
So, "low capacity" mags were not a problem.

Personally, I never liked the bulky feel of those double stack guns. On the other hand old slab sides fits perfectly and points naturally.
JMB was a true genius.
As soon as you said "spray and pray" you lost all credibility with me.

Just more of the old 1911/.45 rhetoric from a past era, that was incorrect then, and that hasnt changed today. Spray and pray has nothing to do with the gun, or the number of rounds in it.

The exact number of rounds needed, regardless of caliber, will be the exact number that it takes to stop the threat. That could be one, that could be all you brought along.

And I dont care how fast you think you can reload, its never going to be faster than someone who doesnt have to.

As far as the "bulky feel" thing, I suggest you get your calipers out and get to measuring. Most of my "fat" high cap grips are the same or less than my 1911's. Most of those, also fill my hand better, giving better purchase on the gun. And add to that, that most of those "newer" guns, allow for most of the grip to be stippled, and it gets even better.

My 1911's with standard panels are 1.33" wide, The more hand filling and more comfortable panels make the grip 1.36" wide.

My Berettas are 1.36". My SIG P228 is 1.27". My Glock 17 is 1.19".

I shoot all of them on a regular basis, and all them, including the high caps, point naturally for me as well.


Look, if you're comfortable with the lower capacity guns, hey, knock yourself out. I got nothing in it.

And for a long while there, I was right there with you, up until the point I realized that high cap guns truly do have more to offer. And with more and more options becoming more readily available as time went on, things only got better.

My goal has always been to try and solve the problem with as few well-placed rounds as possible, but my brain knows not to stop until it is solved. There is no magic number, or bullet. Just focus, skill, and determination.

And youre right, JMB was a genius. And so was Gaston Glock, and a couple of others. Take advantage of the diversity, and expand your horizons.
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Old 08-10-2019, 02:18 PM
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What is the average distance an encounter with a pistol occurs at?

What is the average number of rounds fired before either party is 'deaded' or one/both parties have run away?

The answers will surprise you?

Now factor in the time it takes to assess your target, both you first and you reacting to them engaging first. Factor in whether or not you're condition one. Now factor in your draw time.

So is it PEW PEW or is it PEW x 19 reload and PEW x 19?


But hey, they must make 30 round pistol magazines for something.
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Old 08-10-2019, 02:22 PM
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Came here to find 2-5k likes for my memes.

Leaving disappointed.

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Old 08-10-2019, 03:11 PM
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Get better Meme's!

Heres a couple for ya .......









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Old 08-10-2019, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by AK103K View Post
As soon as you said "spray and pray" you lost all credibility with me.

Just more of the old 1911/.45 rhetoric from a past era, that was incorrect then, and that hasnt changed today. Spray and pray has nothing to do with the gun, or the number of rounds in it.

The exact number of rounds needed, regardless of caliber, will be the exact number that it takes to stop the threat. That could be one, that could be all you brought along.

And I dont care how fast you think you can reload, its never going to be faster than someone who doesnt have to.

As far as the "bulky feel" thing, I suggest you get your calipers out and get to measuring. Most of my "fat" high cap grips are the same or less than my 1911's. Most of those, also fill my hand better, giving better purchase on the gun. And add to that, that most of those "newer" guns, allow for most of the grip to be stippled, and it gets even better.

My 1911's with standard panels are 1.33" wide, The more hand filling and more comfortable panels make the grip 1.36" wide.

My Berettas are 1.36". My SIG P228 is 1.27". My Glock 17 is 1.19".

I shoot all of them on a regular basis, and all them, including the high caps, point naturally for me as well.


Look, if you're comfortable with the lower capacity guns, hey, knock yourself out. I got nothing in it.

And for a long while there, I was right there with you, up until the point I realized that high cap guns truly do have more to offer. And with more and more options becoming more readily available as time went on, things only got better.

My goal has always been to try and solve the problem with as few well-placed rounds as possible, but my brain knows not to stop until it is solved. There is no magic number, or bullet. Just focus, skill, and determination.

And youre right, JMB was a genius. And so was Gaston Glock, and a couple of others. Take advantage of the diversity, and expand your horizons.
FIRST...
IF it fired a bullet I have probably shot it ... A LOT
I have pretty much tried all those hicap guns including the multistack PAraords. (I owned 3 at one time) For me the GLock(the sound you make if you bite into raw chicken) shoots uphill, it requires an unnatural wrist break to get the sights to line up. I was in a line of work where I tried EVERYTHING and ANYTHING that might give me an edge on the street. IF I could have shot a Glock with a 100 round mag in it better than anything else that is what I would have carried. NOTHING fit better or shot better than the 1911 with a flat mainspring housing and checkered wood grips.

WHY are you offended by spray and pray??? That is the exact affliction of folks who think lots of rounds in the gun make up for training and skill. A pro shooter friend, J. Michael Plaxco one day said "Remember, you can never miss fast enough to win." In my case it would be you can never miss fast enough to stay alive. So, by training myself to not miss, I did not need more than what I carried. By training for A LOT OF SPEED, I never even had to shoot some folks who others would have to simply because I could bring a gun to bear faster than everyone I ever came up against except in competition shooting. Against a timer I could regularly draw, fire and hit in K zone in half a second at 15 feet. To do that it takes hundreds and hundreds of hours of practice and hundreds of thousands of rounds. Every day of my work life I would make at least fifty draws just for practice. The draw and presentation became as reflexive as breathing.

LEMMEPUTITTHISWAY....

If you practiced as much and as hard as I did in my life, you wouldn't need all those rounds to stop the fight, put someone down, end things.
Ask me how I know that....
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