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Old 07-21-2019, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter View Post
I'm trying to recall if I've ever had a squib in either a revolver or auto pistol, nothing comes to mind, however I do recall having one in a 357 lever action with a long barrel, it was a light target load that didn't make it out the end. I caught on that something wasn't right before I sent another one down the barrel.
I had a standard velocity get stuck in a long barreled .22 H&R revolver years back.
Iirc the barrel was 10 or so.
I think the round was simply a dud.
It almost made it out, the nose was outside the bore.
I was able to grab it with my pocket knife and pop it out.
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Old 07-21-2019, 07:54 PM
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I'm trying to recall if I've ever had a squib in either a revolver or auto pistol, nothing comes to mind, however I do recall having one in a 357 lever action with a long barrel, it was a light target load that didn't make it out the end. I caught on that something wasn't right before I sent another one down the barrel.
It's never happened to me before ever. Had to Google what it was.

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Old 07-21-2019, 08:06 PM
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This was the result of soaking a handful of reloads in a glass of water for a couple of days about a year ago to see what would happen. Most of them went off. A couple were squibs, and one didnt quite make it out.....

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Old 07-21-2019, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ForgedInTheFlame View Post
It's never happened to me before ever. Had to Google what it was.

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I was shooting light target loads through a revolver and was getting really good groups, so I thought I'd try them in a Winchester Trails end, first four or five were fine then nothing. I cleared the rifle and dropped a rod down the barrel and there it was about six inches from the muzzle. My best guess is that there wasn't enough chamber pressure to start with, then fouling built up over the first few rounds and friction took over stopping the last one in the bore.
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Old 07-21-2019, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
You can attempt (and fail) at ignoring well studied police and military shootings going back over 100 years that demonstrate auto loading pistols are more effective defensive handguns. It's harder to ignore the fact that 10MM will induce more permanent crush cavity wounds with more FPE delivered in a shorter time than any 357 magnum revolver.

NEXT!
ok, I'll play. I am retired LEO, 26 yrs, carried both types of weapons so I am fully aware that the 10mm will produce more permanent crush cavity wounds, as you call them.
BUT I am talking about reloading in a shtf situation.
Semi autos require much closer specs or they will fail to extract or eject. In a shtf set up those specs will be much harder to obtain when loading by hand.

Therefore I accept that I will have to substitute good shot placement to do the job, instead of volumetric shock from gaping wounds. I may have to even double-tap. The job, however is to make the attacker(s) cease their attack, not rip them limb from limb. I am aware of the arguments based on the old tales of hopped up natives in India failing to fall down quick enough after being killed (but not aware of it due to the drugs on board).
but I wont just be standing in one spot, toe to toe, trying to win by having the hottest load.

Plus I am aware that shot #2 is more accurate due to less recoil from shot #1 if it is NOT a hot load.

I don't say 10mm are bad, just that for my purposes, and plans, and training, and reloading....I like the 357 better. It's plenty big enough to kill cars, and bears (we trained with both) so I'm satisfied with it.
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Old 07-21-2019, 09:46 PM
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Forgive me Nightvisionary, I did not take you on point by point....

In terms of the semi autos requiring a hotter load, I was using the data from the 1970s by the Glendale Police Dept who tested various loads and weapons. They found their wheel guns would operate just fine at 80% of maximum load , whereas the semi autos would not. If I have to reload, and supplies are finite, that would give me considerable savings in powder. Of course a 10mm will also shoot a 40 S&W round....they both fit. but you have not addressed the effects of reduced FPS for a weapon that DEPENDS on recoil to reload effectively. I have never had a primer jam my cylinder, but I have had plenty of stovepipes shooting standard factory loads in my glocks. It was so bad that when we were issued ammo we had to fiddle around and place each and every round in the barrel to make sure they would fit. And that was with factory, new loads, not reloads.

I cannot argue on whether a 40 S&W has the same FPS as a 10mm. All I can say is it would depend on the manufacturer and what you bought. However, a low power load would have issue in a semi auto, no matter what the caliber.

when I spoke of minor imperfections in hand loads, I was not referring to backed out primers...that to me would be a major imperfection. I was referring to the fact that semi auto loads tend to require tighter specs in casing diameters, since reloading instructional manuals say that casings fired thru a semi auto should ONLY be reloaded (without resizing) for that specific semi-auto since the pressure of firing causes minor warping of the casing to match that particular barrel. They have to be re-sized back to factory specs if you want them interchangeable. Wheel guns don't require such tight fit tolerances, which is why having a dirty semi auto is so much more critical than having a dirty wheel gun. My dept tested weapons specifically to see whether they would fire reliably after they were dropped in dirt, or mud (as in a physical altercation). Wheel guns were MUCH more reliable. Shake them to get the big chunks out and your are back in battery, so to speak.

A lower power load has less recoil and the accuracy is in regard to the shooter having less correction to make for shot #2 both efficiently and accurately. Speed isnt everything if accuracy is bad. So you have me there, The accuracy is in the shooter, not the ammo...that just goes where you tell it to. If we checked, I am certain that the tournament shooters still find that the relatively small 22-cal, high power rounds are the most accurate of all due to their lessened friction from their smaller size. But those would also be impractical for defensive, or meat-getting uses.

I maintain, however that with speedloaders (and keeping in practice, of course) I can reload just as fast as with a magazine. Just fewer rounds per, so I guess I have to carry extra speedloaders. And I never said the semi autos were bad...I do love my glock 40-cal, it shoots sweet, and is easier to conceal due to its flatter profile. But it is more particular in what I feed it, and how clean I keep it (which could be problematic in a grid down situation when finding cleaning solvent is an issue). So I won't be getting rid of my 357 anytime soon. Just a preference, that's all, based on my training and experience. To each their own.

.
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Old 07-22-2019, 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted by kappydell View Post
Forgive me Nightvisionary, I did not take you on point by point....

In terms of the semi autos requiring a hotter load, I was using the data from the 1970s by the Glendale Police Dept who tested various loads and weapons. They found their wheel guns would operate just fine at 80% of maximum load , whereas the semi autos would not. If I have to reload, and supplies are finite, that would give me considerable savings in powder. Of course a 10mm will also shoot a 40 S&W round....they both fit. but you have not addressed the effects of reduced FPS for a weapon that DEPENDS on recoil to reload effectively. I have never had a primer jam my cylinder, but I have had plenty of stovepipes shooting standard factory loads in my glocks. It was so bad that when we were issued ammo we had to fiddle around and place each and every round in the barrel to make sure they would fit. And that was with factory, new loads, not reloads.

I cannot argue on whether a 40 S&W has the same FPS as a 10mm. All I can say is it would depend on the manufacturer and what you bought. However, a low power load would have issue in a semi auto, no matter what the caliber.

when I spoke of minor imperfections in hand loads, I was not referring to backed out primers...that to me would be a major imperfection. I was referring to the fact that semi auto loads tend to require tighter specs in casing diameters, since reloading instructional manuals say that casings fired thru a semi auto should ONLY be reloaded (without resizing) for that specific semi-auto since the pressure of firing causes minor warping of the casing to match that particular barrel. They have to be re-sized back to factory specs if you want them interchangeable. Wheel guns don't require such tight fit tolerances, which is why having a dirty semi auto is so much more critical than having a dirty wheel gun. My dept tested weapons specifically to see whether they would fire reliably after they were dropped in dirt, or mud (as in a physical altercation). Wheel guns were MUCH more reliable. Shake them to get the big chunks out and your are back in battery, so to speak.

A lower power load has less recoil and the accuracy is in regard to the shooter having less correction to make for shot #2 both efficiently and accurately. Speed isnt everything if accuracy is bad. So you have me there, The accuracy is in the shooter, not the ammo...that just goes where you tell it to. If we checked, I am certain that the tournament shooters still find that the relatively small 22-cal, high power rounds are the most accurate of all due to their lessened friction from their smaller size. But those would also be impractical for defensive, or meat-getting uses.

I maintain, however that with speedloaders (and keeping in practice, of course) I can reload just as fast as with a magazine. Just fewer rounds per, so I guess I have to carry extra speedloaders. And I never said the semi autos were bad...I do love my glock 40-cal, it shoots sweet, and is easier to conceal due to its flatter profile. But it is more particular in what I feed it, and how clean I keep it (which could be problematic in a grid down situation when finding cleaning solvent is an issue). So I won't be getting rid of my 357 anytime soon. Just a preference, that's all, based on my training and experience. To each their own.

.
I think semi autos have gotten a LOT more reliable and resistant to dirt and mud since the 70s. You can bury a Glock in the mud , dig it up and fire it.
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Old 07-22-2019, 09:08 AM
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I reload a lot for both autos and revolvers, and both have their issues.

Proper loads for both also use similar powder charges, so Im not seeing a big difference there.

Brass wise, the revolvers probably have an edge there, as they dont have they dont have the rim issues autos have over time and use. Even then though, the auto rounds do still work, but you do see more function problems with them as time goes on.

Revolver brass seems to be more susceptible to losing strength at the neck, and maintaining a proper crimp, which can cause problems that bring more trouble than the autos rims.

Revolver stoppages in general are more serious than auto stoppages, and the guns tend to be out of action when they occur, and a tool of some sort is usually needed to get them back in action. A simple TRB will normally have the autos back in action in a second or two.

Capacity is the major difference. I dont care how fast you are with speed loaders, youre already in the hole at the start, and by as much as three to one. Pretty hard to compete with not having to reload.

While I shoot a lot of both, the autos are the bulk of it, and see the most rounds shot. When I do see an issue with them in practice, its normally due to worn out, constantly reloaded brass starting to cause malfunction troubles.

And I actually see that as a plus too, and it allows for regular and random malfunction practice.

I really cant remember the last time I had any problems with factory new ammo in any of the autos either. If youre having issues there, I think Id be contacting the ammo maker. Something isnt right there.

Generally with the revolvers, when theres a problem with the gun or ammo in practice, I have to stop and go figure out whats wrong. Its rarely a quick "few seconds" fix either.

The last issue I had was with a S&W 625 I just picked up that had a trigger that felt like it was a $$$ custom job, and was very light. So light in fact, that my first thought was "unbelievable action, but we'll see how this goes" when I bought it. And unbelievable was right. Right from the start, I was getting 2-3 light strikes each cylinder. Pulled the grips, and someone had "helped" the action, by backing the strain screw almost all the way out. Screwed it back in, and it still has a real nice action, and its been 100% since. Its also finicky about what moon clips it likes.

On the other hand, when the rear rail broke on my Glock 17, the gun was still functioning like nothing was wrong. Over the 10+ years Ive been shooting it, it also had a couple of trigger springs break, and I could still shoot the gun with them broken.

Things like that rarely happen with the revolvers. Something goes, even stupid minor things, like crap under the extractor star, or a jumped crimp, and youre out of action.

The main thing here, with whatever you choose, is to be very familiar with what you use, and know exactly what to expect from them and be realistic in those expectations.

Personally, if I were to go back to carrying a revolver as a primary gun, Id be carrying two of them.
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Old 07-22-2019, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by kappydell View Post
.

I maintain, however that with speedloaders (and keeping in practice, of course) I can reload just as fast as with a magazine. Just fewer rounds per, so I guess I have to carry extra speedloaders. And I never said the semi autos were bad...I do love my glock 40-cal, it shoots sweet, and is easier to conceal due to its flatter profile. But it is more particular in what I feed it, and how clean I keep it (which could be problematic in a grid down situation when finding cleaning solvent is an issue). So I won't be getting rid of my 357 anytime soon. Just a preference, that's all, based on my training and experience. To each their own.

.
The rest has been adequately covered, but I have a little to add.

This weekend I was "lazy" and Carried a J frame (1 speed strip)
And my G27 in my pocket. When I wasn't carrying a G23 along with the 27.

I'll buy that your as fast on the reload. (With a speed loader)

But the first time I reload my 9+1 G27 it'll be with one of the (2) 15 round G22 mags in my back pocket.

All by the time I'm reaching for that 2nd G22 mag you've had to reload with 4 speed loaders to my one reload. (Worse if a 5 shot)

Durability addressed.


Oh, I use moble 1 synthetic on my vehicles and guns.

It's highly unlikely motor oil will be lacking.
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Old 07-22-2019, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by kappydell View Post
I maintain, however that with speedloaders (and keeping in practice, of course) I can reload just as fast as with a magazine. Just fewer rounds per, so I guess I have to carry extra speedloaders. And I never said the semi autos were bad...I do love my glock 40-cal, it shoots sweet, and is easier to conceal due to its flatter profile. But it is more particular in what I feed it, and how clean I keep it (which could be problematic in a grid down situation when finding cleaning solvent is an issue). So I won't be getting rid of my 357 anytime soon. Just a preference, that's all, based on my training and experience. To each their own.

.
My first USPSA gun years back was a G22.
That gun rarely got cleaned.
Maybe once a year.
It got a little oil on the slide rails and wiped down externally every couple matches/weekends and it ran and ran with no problems no matter the ammo.

You don't need "solvent" for most modern guns to keep them operating and in a "grid" down situation I doubt finding some Hoppes would be your largest priority.
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Old 07-22-2019, 09:11 PM
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I reload a lot for both autos and revolvers, and both have their issues.



Proper loads for both also use similar powder charges, so Im not seeing a big difference there.



Brass wise, the revolvers probably have an edge there, as they dont have they dont have the rim issues autos have over time and use. Even then though, the auto rounds do still work, but you do see more function problems with them as time goes on.



Revolver brass seems to be more susceptible to losing strength at the neck, and maintaining a proper crimp, which can cause problems that bring more trouble than the autos rims.



Revolver stoppages in general are more serious than auto stoppages, and the guns tend to be out of action when they occur, and a tool of some sort is usually needed to get them back in action. A simple TRB will normally have the autos back in action in a second or two.



Capacity is the major difference. I dont care how fast you are with speed loaders, youre already in the hole at the start, and by as much as three to one. Pretty hard to compete with not having to reload.



While I shoot a lot of both, the autos are the bulk of it, and see the most rounds shot. When I do see an issue with them in practice, its normally due to worn out, constantly reloaded brass starting to cause malfunction troubles.



And I actually see that as a plus too, and it allows for regular and random malfunction practice.



I really cant remember the last time I had any problems with factory new ammo in any of the autos either. If youre having issues there, I think Id be contacting the ammo maker. Something isnt right there.



Generally with the revolvers, when theres a problem with the gun or ammo in practice, I have to stop and go figure out whats wrong. Its rarely a quick "few seconds" fix either.



The last issue I had was with a S&W 625 I just picked up that had a trigger that felt like it was a $$$ custom job, and was very light. So light in fact, that my first thought was "unbelievable action, but we'll see how this goes" when I bought it. And unbelievable was right. Right from the start, I was getting 2-3 light strikes each cylinder. Pulled the grips, and someone had "helped" the action, by backing the strain screw almost all the way out. Screwed it back in, and it still has a real nice action, and its been 100% since. Its also finicky about what moon clips it likes.



On the other hand, when the rear rail broke on my Glock 17, the gun was still functioning like nothing was wrong. Over the 10+ years Ive been shooting it, it also had a couple of trigger springs break, and I could still shoot the gun with them broken.



Things like that rarely happen with the revolvers. Something goes, even stupid minor things, like crap under the extractor star, or a jumped crimp, and youre out of action.



The main thing here, with whatever you choose, is to be very familiar with what you use, and know exactly what to expect from them and be realistic in those expectations.



Personally, if I were to go back to carrying a revolver as a primary gun, Id be carrying two of them.
Many good points here, but you also assume missing the first 1-3 shots is almost a guarantee.

Not everyone is a spastic who fires off several rounds in a general direction, some people are quite confident they can get a good look and place shots on target even under duress.

That said, sure, more is better generally speaking, ammo and almost everything else.

But I don't really care what statistics say about self defense encounters because they never account for individual skill or training. Just because person A has six shots in their revolver, and person B has a 15 round mag semi auto with 2 additional magazines, doesn't mean person B will win the fight. They have an advantage, "on paper" as they say, but it's far from a sure thing, and many things can happen in an eternity of 30 seconds or so.



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Old 07-22-2019, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by 7.5x55 Swiss View Post
Why get a .357 Magnum revolver when you can get a 10mm Magnum revolver?
.

Why get a 10 mm. revolver when you can get a .41 magnum revolver?

Load your own ammo to 10 mm. levels , and voila'. Or load to hot .41 special velocities.
I just have more time on my hands now. Although I have to admit ... I would like a 10 mm. in a Sig P220 hunter package, just for bragging rights.
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Old 07-22-2019, 09:25 PM
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Or 44 Magnum master race
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Old 07-22-2019, 09:52 PM
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Many good points here, but you also assume missing the first 1-3 shots is almost a guarantee.

Not everyone is a spastic who fires off several rounds in a general direction, some people are quite confident they can get a good look and place shots on target even under duress.

That said, sure, more is better generally speaking, ammo and almost everything else.

But I don't really care what statistics say about self defense encounters because they never account for individual skill or training. Just because person A has six shots in their revolver, and person B has a 15 round mag semi auto with 2 additional magazines, doesn't mean person B will win the fight. They have an advantage, "on paper" as they say, but it's far from a sure thing, and many things can happen in an eternity of 30 seconds or so.



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Im not assuming anything. I practice regularly with both, and have no trouble hitting well with both.

I think its pretty obvious though, once you start to introduce movement, more than one opponent, not so perfect hits, etc, into the scenarios in practice, the revolvers (and lower cap autos) tend to go empty pretty fast.

I also think the assumption is being made, that simply because youre making hits, that the target will instantly stop/drop, which I dont think is a realistic expectation, especially if youre only going for body shots.

The drill is to keep shooting until the threat is down and out. You may accomplish that in 1 round, or it might take all you have. And things just get exponentially worse as the opponent count goes up and/or skill levels go down.

But who only trains to shoot "once" and then have a look? You shoot, and shoot quickly, until you dont have to shoot anymore. This is where the revolvers (and lower capacity autos) start to get a little shaky in the ammo department. Its also where those who "shoot and look" tend to get lost.

Keep in mind too, to be serious with the revolvers, they need to be shot DAO too, and you need to be to the point that you can do that without thinking about doing that.

Statistics, like ballistics, make for great arguments, but neither are a guarantee that what you get, will fit the numbers, or the fight you always win in your head. The whole point of working things out in practice is to allow for as much as you can, even if it might seem to deviate from what youre always told you will only need. Better to be overprepared than underprepared, dont you think?

Personally, I dont understand the resistance to carrying a high cap auto, that will allow you a lot more options, especially when that gun, is no bigger, and often smaller, than a comparable revolver. They are both really pretty easy to shoot well with, if youre familiar with them, and the autos have fewer challenges and issues, should something go wrong.
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Old 07-22-2019, 10:04 PM
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Im not assuming anything. I practice regularly with both, and have no trouble hitting well with both.



I think its pretty obvious though, once you start to introduce movement, more than one opponent, not so perfect hits, etc, into the scenarios in practice, the revolvers (and lower cap autos) tend to go empty pretty fast.



I also think the assumption is being made, that simply because youre making hits, that the target will instantly stop/drop, which I dont think is a realistic expectation, especially if youre only going for body shots.



The drill is to keep shooting until the threat is down and out. You may accomplish that in 1 round, or it might take all you have. And things just get exponentially worse as the opponent count goes up and/or skill levels go down.



But who only trains to shoot "once" and then have a look? You shoot, and shoot quickly, until you dont have to shoot anymore. This is where the revolvers (and lower capacity autos) start to get a little shaky in the ammo department. Its also where those who "shoot and look" tend to get lost.



Keep in mind too, to be serious with the revolvers, they need to be shot DAO too, and you need to be to the point that you can do that without thinking about doing that.



Statistics, like ballistics, make for great arguments, but neither are a guarantee that what you get, will fit the numbers, or the fight you always win in your head. The whole point of working things out in practice is to allow for as much as you can, even if it might seem to deviate from what youre always told you will only need. Better to be overprepared than underprepared, dont you think?



Personally, I dont understand the resistance to carrying a high cap auto, that will allow you a lot more options, especially when that gun, is no bigger, and often smaller, than a comparable revolver. They are both really pretty easy to shoot well with, if youre familiar with them, and the autos have fewer challenges and issues, should something go wrong.
Well I don't know where you got shoot and look from, maybe I didn't use the best wording, but I just meant getting a good shot picture and shooting at your target, and not merely in the direction or orientation of.

And I do think while the gap may not be huge, it is fair to expect larger calibers to incapacitate sooner.

Over preparing is great as a concept and I agree, but in most people's every day lives we compromise in one way or another. Like for instance I don't leave the house with a gallon of water, in the event I am stranded somewhere. Could I be in a situation where I need it? Sure, but doing my own risk /cost analysis, I don't see it as a pressing prep. I live in the city and expect to be able to find myself some water to drink at several places if the need arises.

I think more than it being "resistance", its merely the idea that 6 will be enough, if I need them, combined with the preference of the reliability of a revolver, regardless of how safe or reliable semi automatics may be.

I own both. But I will continue to consider a revolver more reliable, and I will continue to prefer a higher caliber round in less capacity than the opposite.

And you can "but what if you face 3 guys" me to death. It falls beyond the threshold of my risk/cost analysis.

There is a commonly accepted idea in several industries that you cannot realistically, and resource wise account for 100%, of scenarios, so you focus on 70-80% of them as the most likely and focus your efforts there. The situations where I would need more than drawing, let alone firing more than 3 shots, fall into that 20% range. That I leave to to lord almighty.

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Old 07-22-2019, 10:29 PM
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"Shoot and look" seems to be a popular thing at the various places Ive been around people who shoot. I guess its human nature to see how you did, but its a bad habit to get in to. You should already know where they went, and shouldnt have to look.

I used to think that the .45acp, and a couple of others were the hammer of Todd, but I now think I have a better understanding of things and they all pretty much suck, so, "shoot them to the ground" no matter what it is youre using.

As far as playing the odds and numbers? Hey, whatever floats your boat. I got nothing in it.

I already know exactly how many rounds its going to take, any time something might happen. And that number is EXACTLY what it takes.
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Old 07-22-2019, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by AK103K View Post
"Shoot and look" seems to be a popular thing at the various places Ive been around people who shoot. I guess its human nature to see how you did, but its a bad habit to get in to. You should already know where they went, and shouldnt have to look.



I used to think that the .45acp, and a couple of others were the hammer of Todd, but I now think I have a better understanding of things and they all pretty much suck, so, "shoot them to the ground" no matter what it is youre using.



As far as playing the odds and numbers? Hey, whatever floats your boat. I got nothing in it.



I already know exactly how many rounds its going to take, any time something might happen. And that number is EXACTLY what it takes.


Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk
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Old 07-23-2019, 01:59 AM
Nomad, 2nd Nomad, 2nd is offline
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Originally Posted by ForgedInTheFlame View Post
.

But I don't really care what statistics say about self defense encounters because they never account for individual skill or training. Just because person A has six shots in their revolver, and person B has a 15 round mag semi auto with 2 additional magazines, doesn't mean person B will win the fight. They have an advantage, "on paper" as they say,
Of course not. Experence, willingness, born reflexes, who had a bad day.... All kinds of things make a difference.

But:
1. "You with a weapon you have to reload 4x less"
Will beat:
2. "You with a weapon you have to reload 4x more."

And THAT is a variable you CAN control!

when I shot IPSC and practical pistol I used full power loads, and regular holsters.
I didn't shoot against the other shooters, I shot WITH them, and against MY previous times and scores.
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Old 07-23-2019, 08:12 AM
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Israel Putnam Israel Putnam is offline
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Originally Posted by Ratpacker View Post
.

Why get a 10 mm. revolver when you can get a .41 magnum revolver?

Load your own ammo to 10 mm. levels , and voila'. Or load to hot .41 special velocities.
I just have more time on my hands now. Although I have to admit ... I would like a 10 mm. in a Sig P220 hunter package, just for bragging rights.
10mm Magnum not 10mm.

Uses common bullets and equivalent to the odd .41mag.
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Old 07-23-2019, 09:48 AM
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Hick Industries Hick Industries is online now
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10mm Magnum not 10mm.

Uses common bullets and equivalent to the odd .41mag.
Sig was forced to beef up the side of the P220 to handle the 10mm.
I dont know of a reasonable sized pistol design suited for the 10mm mag.
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