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Old 04-15-2019, 02:03 PM
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Here is a very crude, but surprisingly effective method to get a pretty decent idea of the direction from which a sound is coming. Remember, however, that sound does reflect, and the direction from which you are hearing the sound does not necessarily mean that is the direction from which the sound originally came from.

Go somewhere that has a variety of distinct sounds. Ones that can be distinguished. Stand with your eyes closed and cup your hands behind your ears. Slowly turn around, pausing every few degrees of the rotation. I believe you will be quite surprised at how much simply cupping your ears enhances the sound from the direction you are facing and reduces the sound behind you.

Just my opinion.
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Old 04-15-2019, 02:50 PM
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sadly how many deer hunters do you know who actively shoot within 750-1,500 meters?? Jerry


realistically you are looking at targets past 1-2 miles away how many parking structures do you know within 100 meters of an emergency dept entrance

don't get me wrong though how many deer hunter have training to 300-1,000 meters

realistically my if you want paint the myth of an urban sniper in today's terrain somewhere within 1-1.6 mile radius somewhere on 3-6 storey building..

with the use of silencer it would be hard to pin point assuming directional parabolic mics are capable of detecting the bullet crack.. within 100-200 meters..

even if you were a Daniel Boone type hunter to sub 1000+meter range it is no guarantee you are going to have repeat performance unless you are former military to begin with..

In a SHTF if you are sniping to stop looting your average range 350-750 meters (just an example)

To be honest looking at the amount of closed down hospitals there are in the US as a whole I think you would have better luck in raiding that for supplies than be a serial pest at a running hospital..

whilst it is good to discussions on this topic i honest think i be a 1 in a billion chance in having sniper problem when you have people fleeing for their lives..

the Urban sniper Myth only works in situations where you are trying instill fear into the populas without a SHFT event going on..


whist urban snipe might be plausible outcome i would say it would be a crap shoot it whilst a shtf is going on..

how many rogue sniper did you hear about in the after action report of IKE and Katrina and other natural disaster event..
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Old 04-15-2019, 07:05 PM
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Why would anyone care (in the city especially) where the sound is coming from?
Lets imagine a shooer without a suppressor but with a bolt action. Within 300 yards there will be one shot one kill. Then he would move and shoot again (if needed). And with the suppressor he would be able to shoot several "targets" before having to move.
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Old 04-15-2019, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by GG42 View Post
Why would anyone care (in the city especially) where the sound is coming from?
Because that's where the bullets are coming from.

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Originally Posted by GG42 View Post
Lets imagine a shooer without a suppressor but with a bolt action. Within 300 yards there will be one shot one kill.
It might be. It very likely won't. Almost no shots are immediately fatal save for anything that destroys the brain, spinal cord, or aortas.

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Then he would move and shoot again (if needed).
If they're smart.

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And with the suppressor he would be able to shoot several "targets" before having to move.
Completely false.
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Old 04-16-2019, 05:36 PM
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sadly how many deer hunters do you know who actively shoot within 750-1,500 meters?? Jerry


realistically you are looking at targets past 1-2 miles away how many parking structures do you know within 100 meters of an emergency dept entrance

don't get me wrong though how many deer hunter have training to 300-1,000 meters

realistically my if you want paint the myth of an urban sniper in today's terrain somewhere within 1-1.6 mile radius somewhere on 3-6 storey building..

with the use of silencer it would be hard to pin point assuming directional parabolic mics are capable of detecting the bullet crack.. within 100-200 meters..

even if you were a Daniel Boone type hunter to sub 1000+meter range it is no guarantee you are going to have repeat performance unless you are former military to begin with..

In a SHTF if you are sniping to stop looting your average range 350-750 meters (just an example)

To be honest looking at the amount of closed down hospitals there are in the US as a whole I think you would have better luck in raiding that for supplies than be a serial pest at a running hospital..

whilst it is good to discussions on this topic i honest think i be a 1 in a billion chance in having sniper problem when you have people fleeing for their lives..

the Urban sniper Myth only works in situations where you are trying instill fear into the populas without a SHFT event going on..


whist urban snipe might be plausible outcome i would say it would be a crap shoot it whilst a shtf is going on..

how many rogue sniper did you hear about in the after action report of IKE and Katrina and other natural disaster event..
Redlineshooter, I am not understanding the comments in relation to what I have posted in this thread. I suspect it is me and my information processing skills, but I honestly am not seeing any connections between what I posted and the comments in your post.

Would you please explain with a bit more detail so I can see where I may be missing something. The older I get it seems the more trouble I have seeing connections.

Thank you.

Jerry
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Old 04-16-2019, 07:23 PM
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I mentioned 2 ideas. Shotspotter was the 2nd one. Simply some microphones slaved to a timing computer that triangulate gunshot sounds to estimate the point of origin. First I heard of the idea was when they were trying it out in NYC somewhere.
I can see where echos would be a difficulty in a big city.
Oh, yeah, that's true. They're using that to catch people now. Think it's in more than one big city.

Don't know what it's exactly made of though--- if it's triangulating microphones.

I guess if you could use it to find gangsters murdering each other with handguns, then you could use it to find snipers.

Think I've seen more than one article about someone being caught with that.
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Old 04-16-2019, 07:46 PM
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Oh, yeah, that's true. They're using that to catch people now. Think it's in more than one big city.

Don't know what it's exactly made of though--- if it's triangulating microphones.

I guess if you could use it to find gangsters murdering each other with handguns, then you could use it to find snipers.

Think I've seen more than one article about someone being caught with that.

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Old 04-16-2019, 07:46 PM
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another solution might be to have 2 - 3 dogs youve trained to stay in the vicinity of the property and trained to bark and "point" toward anyone they find in the area. it would be like having trained anti-sniper patrolmen out for security. you would have to have someone paying attention to the area and where the dogs are in case a "sniper"/gunman shoots a dog with a suppressor. if the dog is out of sight too long, use a high pitched dog whistle to call them in. if it doesnt come right away & no barking, get ready for a gun fight.

im wondering if that would also work with a few sheep and an alpaca/llama as they are protective. but im just crapshooting with that idea, i dont know enough about these animals.
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Old 04-16-2019, 07:49 PM
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I think the OP brought up a valid concern.

Thanks to everybody for all the great suggestions.

I'm thinking of the threat of untrained snipers. I think I've read two or three times about that being an actual and common threat in the Balkans or other places. There could be many motivations for it. When SHTF, people could just be doing it just as part of running wild. Or it could just be part of an effort (perhaps misguided) at self-defense / area denial--- the **** hits the fan, a sheeple gets his hand on a rifle, and then thinks the wise thing to do is just to hang out all day, every day, shooting at everything on two legs.

The threat could range from something like this on up to anything including active duty military or police snipers who are carrying out some kind of orders, and who think their rules of engagement include you or your family when they see you.

I think that if we're talking about a civil war, we could have a real mixed bag. And it seems to me like the awareness about snipers and anything tacticool or military is a lot higher now--- for instance consider civilian sniping competitions and ranges, YouTube videos, and what you get out of a 1980s Paladin Press sniping book compared to one that's more recent. Or consider we've got a fresh batch of combat vets from Afghanistan and Iraq, and they may not all be on your side. It's common, or used to be, for outlaw bikers to come from the marines or the army. I'm not saying it's ordinary for those guys to have an elite ex-soldier like an ex-sniper, but I'm just saying, keep an open mind. A gangster who wasn't that bad in the military could always somehow manage to get some sniping training in before SHTF, and it might benefit him.

All that said, I think the untrained, opportunistic sniper is the threat we should be most concerned with.

However, we shouldn't forget the possibility someone with better training making up a very significant portion of the threats. They could be rogue military, people who just got out of it, someone self-taught, or people who are following some kind of mistaken orders or immoral leadership. Just looks at the cops versus the gilets jaunes. The cops think they're doing the right thing, but it's very, very common to side with the gilets jaunes, even among the cops.

As far as what can be done about snipers---
all I have to add is to mention the usual military security measures, like passwords, code words, radio discipline, head counts, etc. A lot of that stuff is very ninja, although it's been standard practice for ages. It's true soldiering.

Snipers have to infiltrate an area, and the security measures are all concerned with keeping a guy with that kind of motive or mission from getting where he needs to be to take his shot.

It all suggests the need to grow your network at some point, whether it's right before SHTF or whatever. If you have enough people, you can monitor and block off areas with sentries, obstacles, and protocols for being allowed to pass them to more central areas, or other kinds of important areas. Could keep a lot of people from getting their heads shot off!
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Old 04-16-2019, 11:34 PM
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Not to trivialize the threat but even your average deer hunters are rarely accurate between 50-100 meters. I do think most sniper threats will simply be some degenerate looking to score some kit; they are likely not trained nor are they going to be very accurate with a long gun. More importantly, they will likely have a poor hide and lack noise, light, and movement discipline. If you have to navigate through an area with a high threat probability, patience, observation, recon (drone aerial recon), and maximizing cover with movements will be the best COA. Unless your mission is to neutralize and counter a sniper, I'll stick with the evacuating the area if one is encountered. Again, I don't want to underestimate the threat, but when we talk "sniper", I don't see many marksmen-thugs capable of hitting a moving target over 100 meters away. Even gun enthusiasts overestimate their own skill when shooting from a comfortable, covered bench at static targets...

ROCK6
You know ROCK you are right about a lot of deer hunters I have killed deer legally with other hunters watching me take the shot had them come over just to tell me I was a lucky shot and I am just a Retired Infantry GySgt , In a large swath of America today even in the Military , there is a real lacking in the basic fundamentals of the skills needed to properly utilize a rifle to its full potential, much less real sniping. JMHO and S/FI!
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Old 04-17-2019, 12:25 AM
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The scenario that concerns me is getting home after an event has occurred I must walk home 30-40 miles which may take several days over terrane that is unfamiliar .
I use to keep a spotting scope in my EDC but it added too much weight and bulk. I've got 10x30 monocular but that is too weak to see real threats at a distance. but it's better than nothing . A hand gun is no defense against a sniper even an amateur.
I have maps for going around but sometime you don't know what an area has hiding in it .
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Old 04-17-2019, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim from 28DaysLater View Post

All that said, I think the untrained, opportunistic sniper is the threat we should be most concerned with.

Snipers have to infiltrate an area, and the security measures are all concerned with keeping a guy with that kind of motive or mission from getting where he needs to be to take his shot.
I still think these types of "untrained" snipers will be the biggest threat. A sniper doesn't necessarily mean a formally trained individual, just someone harassing or denying access from a hide of some type.

For most people or communities already bugged-in, I do agree that a sniper team infiltration could be a threat. However, I think the bigger "sniper" threats will be when traveling, hunting, scouting, scavenging, and someone either ambushes you or tries to "snipe" at you to either deny you access or an opportunistic kill from a less-than-moral individual or group (ala gang).

My only caveat is that I don't think these types of threats will be very effective/accurate over 50-100 yards. I don't make that assumption lightly, but it does formulate my combat drills. It will likely require more than "one shot, one kill", which means you may have some time to react, find cover, and break contact, E&Eing back to your last rally point to asses your next course of action.

If a sniper threat is in your AO, you will have to counter and hunt them down. If outside my AO while out on a long range patrol, it's counterproductive to engage them...the juice simply isn't worth the squeeze if you will, hence my COA to mark and bypass.

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Old 04-17-2019, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Jerry D Young View Post
Redlineshooter, I am not understanding the comments in relation to what I have posted in this thread. I suspect it is me and my information processing skills, but I honestly am not seeing any connections between what I posted and the comments in your post.

Would you please explain with a bit more detail so I can see where I may be missing something. The older I get it seems the more trouble I have seeing connections.

Thank you.

Jerry

how many cases have you heard of a urban sniper in context of SHTF in context with earth quakes or Hurricane events do you hear of..

How many hospitals do you know of that have a active 3+ storey parking structure within 100 meter the emergency dept entrance

whilst some of my last post was directed at you however most of it was directed towards all respondents of the topic..

realistically unless you are former military you aren't going to be taking pot shots at hospitals being public pain in the backside until someone shoots you dead because you are only doing it because you don't have the balls to blow out your own brains...

Because at most instances people taking pot shots gov based buildings typically have a nut bar attitude to cause mass casualty or wanting to die because they can't get the help they need...

from what I look at urban sniper i look to dc sniper in recent years, or back to the 50's-70's where you some kid or kids shooting up the university..

or the would be banl robbers in LA as the target of mass shootings. and looking at the narrative coming out of mainstream media it either doesn't happen they way they say's it happens or they make up a fake news story ..


classic example of this sandy hooks, may be it was a training incident that went wrong and then news got hold of the narration and completely blow the story out of proportion and make fake news out of it..

Yet some of the people looked like out of work actors who had made a judge judy appearance at some point in their collective careers ..

From what I can see from the 1st post in topic seems to be following the news narratives on tv with no thinking capacity for reasoning and believing the hype vs reality that in most cases would not happen because it is a billing to 1 shot in the 1st place, though the news anchors paint the issue to 10 to 1 or 5 to 1 shot to sell the hype and drama of the mess..

to the former military that post iin this thread I have to ask as a competent hunter what was your longest engagement to your target animal of choice..

My guess 1/4-1/2 mile repeatable, out to 1-1.5 miles 1 in 5 shots, with military training used as augmenticve training that will be closer than 1 in 2 to 1 in 3 shots
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Old 04-18-2019, 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by swamppapa View Post
"Got bait?"
yeah, know it all teenagers
Not worth the bullet

Your question highlights the positive benefit of bugging-in.
If an individual/family/clan are fully prepped, there should be very few
compelling reasons to venture outside your secured area immediately after SHTF.

The longer you can stay hunkered down, the better your chances that
law enforcement will regain control; the sniper will get taken out;
or the sniper will get what he needed from some less fortunate soul
and will move on.
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Old 04-18-2019, 05:39 PM
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Thank you, Redlineshooter for the clarification. It makes much more sense to me now. I figured it was in my perception and it was.

I would like to say that my reply on how to deal with a sniper was not intended in any way to imply these actions during a Katrina or Sandy type event. Earthquake, blizzard or any other 'normal' disaster. It was only applicable to a post-disaster world where there is no rule of law, there has been a huge die-off, and people are out trying to find food and other resources in 'mostly' abandoned places.

The snipers would be people protecting what they perceive as 'their' resources or hope to take the supplies and gear of those they are targeting. It could also be a sniper that is part of a group looking to take over additional areas, or are moving through the area and do not want to be seen or interfered with during their movement, or the sniper could simply be a nutcase out to kill people because he/she can.

It would only be during the aftermath of a cataclysmic or apocalyptic disaster though. Certainly not anything where most people and authorities are still around.

I should have made it clear in my post it was in this kind of situation where what I posted would be used.

Still just my opinion.
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Old 04-19-2019, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveLife View Post
Your question highlights the positive benefit of bugging-in.
If an individual/family/clan are fully prepped, there should be very few
compelling reasons to venture outside your secured area immediately after SHTF.

The longer you can stay hunkered down, the better your chances that
law enforcement will regain control; the sniper will get taken out;
or the sniper will get what he needed from some less fortunate soul
and will move on.
I was wondering myself why, just because there was no law, snipers would appear. How would a civilian shooting people crossing the street significantly advance his chances of survival?

It was asked: "The scenario that concerns me is getting home after an event has occurred I must walk home 30-40 miles which may take several days over terrane that is unfamiliar." To me, that is another unrealistic sniper concern.

Now in a military action, like in Fallujah, the Balkans, Stalingrad, Hue... that is where I think snipers could be a problem. There the goal is not robbery or fun but killing/tying down as many people as possible as part of a military action.. And I agree with LoveLife - git inside and hunker down.
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Old 04-19-2019, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post
I still think these types of "untrained" snipers will be the biggest threat. A sniper doesn't necessarily mean a formally trained individual, just someone harassing or denying access from a hide of some type. ...
You have no idea what a sniper is. Vs a designated marksman or plinker/harassing fire.
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Old 04-19-2019, 10:03 PM
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You have no idea what a sniper is. Vs a designated marksman or plinker/harassing fire.
If I caught a round 1k yards out, I doubt I’d say, ”Thank God that shooter was only a designated makesman.....and not a sniper.
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Old 04-20-2019, 12:23 AM
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I was wondering myself why, just because there was no law, snipers would appear. How would a civilian shooting people crossing the street significantly advance his chances of survival?

It was asked: "The scenario that concerns me is getting home after an event has occurred I must walk home 30-40 miles which may take several days over terrane that is unfamiliar." To me, that is another unrealistic sniper concern.

Now in a military action, like in Fallujah, the Balkans, Stalingrad, Hue... that is where I think snipers could be a problem. There the goal is not robbery or fun but killing/tying down as many people as possible as part of a military action.. And I agree with LoveLife - git inside and hunker down.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
A lunatic with a rifle could become a shooter for any, or no, reason.

However, logic says while there is retail food and fuel available,
most sane folks will purchase, barter, or loot.
But when stores are empty, and fueling stations are burning,
that is when the risk of sniping could be a real danger.

That is why prepping is so critical.
After SHTF is no time to be running to a store.
Hunkered down with a good quantity of preps is risk mitigation.
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Old 04-20-2019, 06:58 AM
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If someone was desperate for food or gas, how would climbing up on a building or water tower and shooting people solve their problem? Seems to me it would just make it worse, good way to get killed yourself.
Not really seeing it..
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