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Old 03-25-2019, 01:24 PM
SBK SBK is offline
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Originally Posted by TraderBob View Post
They aren't prohibiting you, they are just saying you're fired if you do...lol. Since Arkansas is an at will state, they can fire you for any reason, or no reason at all.
I bet that in a court of law that would equate to "prohibiting". I can certainly understand not wanting to be the test case though. Here in Ohio, before we got the parking lot issue cleared up, some people would keep their gun in their vehicle taped loosely in a postal service box. Since it's illegal to open another person's mail it served to help deter nosy employers, if they somehow gained access to the vehicle.
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Old 03-25-2019, 07:21 PM
Texas Heat Texas Heat is offline
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I saw the video too. I work in the school system. It was our active shooter training. It wasn't bad. Considering old protocol was to sit and wait for help and all those kids died waiting when they could have got out. In the event of us needing to fight, I arm kids with scissors and textbooks and office supplies. These punk ass kids aren't going to stab anybody with scissors. We're running.
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Old 03-25-2019, 09:04 PM
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Stay and fight or run and hide.
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Old 03-26-2019, 03:34 AM
Redlineshooter Redlineshooter is offline
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yes these training episodes, to stop someone with a gun the only option to have a gun yourself..

quickest way is to sit like a sheep waiting for the wolf to mow in a hail of bullets ..

if someone is going to run and gun in your place of work i believe in shoot to kill...

as the person trying to kill you has a gun or guns..

waiting for the the idiots in blue to turn is inviting a lot innocents to get killed even if those innocents created the issues in the 1st place..
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Old 07-18-2019, 12:51 AM
Senex Senex is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC-Trainer View Post
It's called an ambush. Which, BTW, most assaults are.

Perhaps you can post all of the mass shootings that have been stopped by an armed civilian? For the record, the .gov definition of a mass killing involving firearms includes three killed, not including the shooter.

Show us where being armed neutralized an active shooter in the act of murder. That will help drive your point home.
http://memepoliceman.com/list-of-mas...med-civilians/

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/...rmed-citizens/

https://www.conservapedia.com/Mass_s...armed_citizens

https://reason.com/2018/05/14/civili...ning-in-activ/

https://www.washingtontimes.com/mult...d-bad-guy-gun/

https://crimeresearch.org/2019/05/ub...blic-shooting/

https://www.concealedcarry.com/news/...er-events-fbi/

https://www.heritage.org/firearms/co...inals-february

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/24/us/ok...ing/index.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.7d3efa0dd555

https://bearingarms.com/tom-k/2018/1...oting-alabama/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ers/643726002/
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Old 07-18-2019, 12:57 AM
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So how many were caused by an armed civilian?
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Old 07-18-2019, 01:33 AM
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Not the way I was trained or indoctrinated.

"...and complete the mission, though I be the lone survivor".

"Surrender is not a ranger word..."

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk
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Old 07-18-2019, 09:33 AM
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Given the statistically small number of "mass shootings" and that most situations can be avoided by situational awareness, you prove the point that carrying concealed can be very effective with such infrequent incidents. If I'm ever in that situation that >5% is still comforting...it shows armed citizens do have an impact...there are just very few CCW citizens.

Another aspect you should consider is how many of those "mass shootings" occurred in gun-free zones/work areas? Those should be excluded as armed citizens typically follow the rule of law despite the infringement. I bet you would see a much higher percentage of armed citizens having positive effects where they can legally carry...

I see you did that and I prefer your data from 2016-2017 as it's more relevant given the increase of CCW permits and carriers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OC-Trainer View Post
Here are the preliminary numbers for 2016/17 active shooter incidents as defined by FBI:

Number of incidents 50

State with the most active shooter incidents: Texas (6)

Percentage of active shooter incidents neutralized by unarmed citizens* - 8%
Percentage of active shooter incidents neutralized by armed citizens* - 8%

Percentage that took place in "gun-allowed zones" - 50%
Percentage that took place in "gun-restricted zones" - 10%
Percentage that took place in "gun-free zones" - 40%

*Incidents stopped by someone other than LEO or armed security personnel
Part of the issue with your data is that it only represents armed citizens stopping/disrupting a "mass shooting" after three people have already been killed (correct me if I'm wrong). What it wouldn't represent is if an armed citizen stopped an active shooter who's intent is a mass shooting but was stopped before killing anyone or only killed one or two individuals before being stopped...

Your data shows that armed citizens, legally carrying, are able to stop or affect an active shooter intent on a mass shooting almost 50% of the time. I think the data will continue to show that where citizens can legally carry, they will have significant impact on stopping whackos intent on mass shootings...

ROCK6
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Old 07-18-2019, 10:36 AM
OC-Trainer OC-Trainer is offline
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Maybe you missed this part:

Quote:
For the record, the .gov definition of a mass killing involving firearms includes three killed, not including the shooter.

Show us where being armed neutralized an active shooter in the act of murder. That will help drive your point home.
How many in your links fit that definition?
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Old 07-18-2019, 10:45 AM
OC-Trainer OC-Trainer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post
Given the statistically small number of "mass shootings" and that most situations can be avoided by situational awareness, you prove the point that carrying concealed can be very effective with such infrequent incidents. If I'm ever in that situation that >5% is still comforting...it shows armed citizens do have an impact...there are just very few CCW citizens.

Another aspect you should consider is how many of those "mass shootings" occurred in gun-free zones/work areas? Those should be excluded as armed citizens typically follow the rule of law despite the infringement. I bet you would see a much higher percentage of armed citizens having positive effects where they can legally carry...

I see you did that and I prefer your data from 2016-2017 as it's more relevant given the increase of CCW permits and carriers.



Part of the issue with your data is that it only represents armed citizens stopping/disrupting a "mass shooting" after three people have already been killed (correct me if I'm wrong). What it wouldn't represent is if an armed citizen stopped an active shooter who's intent is a mass shooting but was stopped before killing anyone or only killed one or two individuals before being stopped...

Your data shows that armed citizens, legally carrying, are able to stop or affect an active shooter intent on a mass shooting almost 50% of the time. I think the data will continue to show that where citizens can legally carry, they will have significant impact on stopping whackos intent on mass shootings...

ROCK6
The data (from FBI) is only based on active shooters. Some may or may not have crossed the .gov definition of "mass killing," which is 3 or more. The truth of the matter is though, that the majority of "mass shooting" occur in the home and they are always "gun allowed zones" technically here in the US.

Not sure if that address your questions, but just let me know if you need a follow up.
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Old 07-18-2019, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
So how many were caused by an armed civilian?
A 2007 study (by the Violence Policy Center of all organizations...very anti-gun/left leaning):

Quote:
Which leaves 369 across 10 years, or as a group CCW have a murderer rate of .3 per 100k,
or a third as violent as the average Brittish person.

ROCK6
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Old 07-18-2019, 10:50 AM
OC-Trainer OC-Trainer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
So how many were caused by an armed civilian?
Good point, All of them.
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Old 07-18-2019, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC-Trainer View Post
The data (from FBI) only is based on active shooters. Some may or may not have crossed the .gov definition of "mass killing," which is 3 or more. The truth of the matter is though, that the majority of "mass shooting" occur in the home and they are always "gun allowed zones" technically here in the US.

Not sure if that address your questions, but just let me know if you need a follow up.
Yes and no, but while the FBI data is pretty sound, it's a very narrow focus as it can only identify "mass shootings" which allows the active shooter to kill three or more people first and doesn't address anybody (armed or not) from preventing a potential mass killing in the first place. Any data would be subjective, but it does address how active shooters or mass killings are recorded for data purposes.

Interesting to see that homes are the most common area. I think those are still relevant, but don't paint a picture of a public setting, which is much of what many here picture. If anything the data is pretty clear that "mass shootings" are still quite rare and it's even more rare for a legally armed citizen using their firearm to stop the progress of a mass shooting. It doesn't influence my opinion on carrying concealed, but it does reinforce that stressed/mentally ill people are dangerous and being armed is safer than non being armed...

ROCK6
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Old 07-18-2019, 11:03 AM
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Another perspective of the data (through 2017):











ROCK6
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Old 07-18-2019, 11:34 AM
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RUN and HIDE in an urban environment is a multisided coin.

Depends where you are in urban land.

There are areas where I worked where in the best of conditions, NO officer EVER went into ALONE, usually certain bars, and a few housing projects.
This one Mex bar in particular the first cop through carried a 12GA at port arms, He Stepped through the door then off to the side to provide cover for the officers who followed. Once everyone was through he went to low ready, round chambered,ready to rock... they DID NOT LIKE us. The drill was hit the floor and let the 12ga do the dirty work. Or.. as we learned over the years.. there really was no such thing as an "innocent bystander"

In the projects there was one way in or out and could be blocked by a couple of cars making it possible to cut off officers from leaving or help arriving.

If the situation was a big enough disaster maybe the natives would be distracted enough to not engage in their usual behavior of pillage, rape, loot and kill... but it would be dangerous to make that assumption.

As an iterative process, so if you can't run, then you hide, but if you later see an opportunity to run, you take it.

I just sat through our annual disaster preparedness training at work, and this was the pitch. It's mostly based on a disgruntled employee showing up with a shot gun, but it seemed to me like a good theoretical framework for urban survivalist in general.

Agree? Disagree? I'd love to hear other opinions.


The other issue of hiding is where and will someone take issue of your selection.

More clarity is required of what you are hiding from.
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Old 07-18-2019, 11:42 AM
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I just found out something of interest... More and more companies/businesses, in the area where I live, have quietly begun to allow certain employees to carry concealed on their property and be ready to respond if an active shooter situation develops. From what I was told, some business owners talked over the idea of run, hide and fight scenario and decided that they did not like it because there was no serious defense to it at all. Instead they talked it over and came up with the idea that they could trust certain employees and would allow them to carry on their property provided that those employees got insurance and a state concealed carry permit. By meeting the legal requirements all across the board that should pretty much protect everybody in a bad situation. Of course, everybody understands that there will still be a civil action that could befall them.
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Old 07-18-2019, 01:02 PM
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Run, hide, fight? This depends, of course, but whether we are discussing workplace violence or crisis survival, this would be a loser.
Let's see they have a meeting, discussing the new sales quota. Their dear friend comes in late, opens his coat and there is an AK in there. How is this run, hide works?
The only reasonable answer is to plug the SOB while he is inserting the mag in.
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Old 07-18-2019, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A_SonofLiberty View Post
Does your company allow you the means to defend yourself? If not, how are you supposed to fight?
Throw those plastic, Chink-made staplers. What are you, some kind of red-blooded, individualist American with an IQ above room temp, or something?

For asking that question, you’ll receive a visit from your local commissar.
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Old 07-18-2019, 08:25 PM
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I just rent Chuck Norris when I travel in America.
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Old 08-01-2019, 08:04 AM
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For most people, this training makes sense. You know exactly who I'm referring to. This training is better than no training for sheep. For the rest of us, I don't need to tell you what you'd do in a given situation.
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