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Old 03-03-2019, 10:32 PM
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Sorry Disturbed but "I don't divulge my sources on here. But nice try."
Nah...we were clear. It was internet myth and rumor.
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Old 03-03-2019, 10:33 PM
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It's not exactly insider information.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.0f63818156e7
I'm failing to see where it mentions women or cost in there. Especially not in a ranked fashion.

Per Blackrock:
"The main driver behind the switch is cost, pure and simple. The second reason is the physical limitations of many of the Officers/Agents that agencies are now hiring. Effectiveness is WAY down the list"

I'd like to see THAT list. Those are some fairly bold statements (no pun intended)
I remember it not being so explicitly stated but rather implied when discussions were had about shooters of smaller stature being more common. I took that to mean more women with smaller hands, less body mass and less grip strength.
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Old 03-03-2019, 10:36 PM
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If you really want to get into it, I didn't claim to have witnessed or participated in any (although I have). I asked you how many you had participated in. Which we all know is zero.
OK I'll make it easy for you. How about you name EXACTLY where and when you shot people with both the 40 and 9 as you did claim. Because I can assure you that IF it did happen you will never forget it and it will be a matter of public record. Or are we supposed to just take your word for this as well?
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Old 03-03-2019, 11:02 PM
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OK I'll make it easy for you. How about you name EXACTLY where and when you shot people with both the 40 and 9 as you did claim. Because I can assure you that IF it did happen you will never forget it and it will be a matter of public record. Or are we supposed to just take your word for this as well?
I've been involved in three on-duty shooting, during the course of 24 years working for a large metropolitan agency, somewhere in the United States. Whether you take my word for it doesn't matter. What matters is I'm still alive and I'm still getting a paycheck.
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Old 03-03-2019, 11:13 PM
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I remember it not being so explicitly stated but rather implied when discussions were had about shooters of smaller stature being more common. I took that to mean more women with smaller hands, less body mass and less grip strength.
I am not denying that those factors were listed in FBI 9mm Justification. I am questioning how Blackrock knows how (or even if) they were weighted. Having spoken with former SAC Boone on more than one occasion, as well as a few others who were heavily involved in the testing - all of whom claim that the 9mm performed as advertised, I'm a little confused as to where this info came from. Having also spoken with Dr Gary Roberts multiple times, I'm even more confused, since his testing matches the FBI's.

There are numerous factors that led to the switch. None of which would have mattered one bit, if the 9mm didn't perform extremely well in testing. Based on initial numbers, there is no change in the number of gunfights being won with the current 9mm. I will say, that being present during my agency's transition from 9mm to 40, back in 94, there was a noticeable uptick in success rate back then. So, based on one extremely busy depts numbers (averaging 20 OIS per year), 40 cal was better than old 9mm, 40 cal and new 9mm are a wash. Go figure. Just like those idiots at the FBI said...
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Old 03-03-2019, 11:31 PM
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I remember it not being so explicitly stated but rather implied when discussions were had about shooters of smaller stature being more common. I took that to mean more women with smaller hands, less body mass and less grip strength.
I am not denying that those factors were listed in FBI 9mm Justification. I am questioning how Blackrock knows how (or even if) they were weighted.
That I don't know but it was a very widely discussed and reaearched topic for years. Could have gotten info from a multitude of sources. I just wanted to point out that it's a well known topic.
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Old 03-03-2019, 11:33 PM
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Anyone who takes James Yaegers word has no credibility on this subject.
I find it funny cuz he told me in person to carry a .40.[IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.survivalistboards.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
That's the game isn't it? Get people to hate it so the price drops. So all this time I have hated him but I have him to thank for my range ammo being nearly the same price as 9mm now. I carry a .357 Sig but use a .40 barrel to train.
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Old 03-04-2019, 07:22 AM
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That's the game isn't it? Get people to hate it so the price drops. So all this time I have hated him but I have him to thank for my range ammo being nearly the same price as 9mm now. I carry a .357 Sig but use a .40 barrel to train.
Do you think those prices will hold as time goes on and the glut starts drying up?

Back when I was using 357SIG and it was upcoming and becoming popular in LE, it cost me the exact same thing as .40, when bought by the case. When things went south back in 08, its price basically doubled ($250 to over $500/1000), and while it did recover a little, never really came back down to the price of .40.

I realize there are a lot more handguns in .40 floating around, but once the ammo starts drying up, and isn't being loaded in the quantities it was when popular for LE, I think you're going to see it jump up like the 357SIG did. I don't think it's going to stay at near 9mm cheap.
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Old 03-04-2019, 07:37 AM
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Paul Harrel is the man.
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Old 03-04-2019, 08:26 AM
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That's the game isn't it? Get people to hate it so the price drops. So all this time I have hated him but I have him to thank for my range ammo being nearly the same price as 9mm now. I carry a .357 Sig but use a .40 barrel to train.
Do you think those prices will hold as time goes on and the glut starts drying up?

Back when I was using 357SIG and it was upcoming and becoming popular in LE, it cost me the exact same thing as .40, when bought by the case. When things went south back in 08, its price basically doubled ($250 to over $500/1000), and while it did recover a little, never really came back down to the price of .40.

I realize there are a lot more handguns in .40 floating around, but once the ammo starts drying up, and isn't being loaded in the quantities it was when popular for LE, I think you're going to see it jump up like the 357SIG did. I don't think it's going to stay at near 9mm cheap.
It's been down near 9mm for years now and seems stable. No telling what could happen in the coming years. I've been buying the FMJ by the thousand and stockpiling them alongside my Gold Dot supply. I'm not really too worried about the price, just wanted to let anyone not up to speed know that the price is in fact not way higher than 9mm. I get the impression sometimes that people are working with info from a 1995 Guns & Ammo magazine. Did you stick qith .357 Sig? It's an awesome round.
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Old 03-04-2019, 08:30 AM
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Paul Harrel is the man.
While I don't always agree with him, I really like his videos. He is the polar opposite of jackasses like Yeager who reenforce all the worst stereotypes of the gun community. Have you seen his video on the pump vs mag fed shotgun? I tried to explain to a friend of mine who got one of those mag fed Rock Islands (fun gun) the drawbacks to a mag fed before I saw Paul's video. He did a much better job presenting it than I did. Definitely going to steal his dialogue.
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Old 03-04-2019, 09:13 AM
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It's been down near 9mm for years now and seems stable. No telling what could happen in the coming years. I've been buying the FMJ by the thousand and stockpiling them alongside my Gold Dot supply. I'm not really too worried about the price, just wanted to let anyone not up to speed know that the price is in fact not way higher than 9mm. I get the impression sometimes that people are working with info from a 1995 Guns & Ammo magazine. Did you stick qith .357 Sig? It's an awesome round.
I was just wondering. Seems you have gluts of guns and ammo for cheap, and 10 years down the road, its all dried up, and prices tend to start to go up considerably, as the availability diminishes. Probably wont be quite the case here, but I can kind of see it coming, especially if LE flat out starts dumping it.

If you shoot a good bit, and are buying it in bulk (and components as well) now while its cheap, and stack it up, you should be fine down the road.


I like the 357SIG, but I got out of it about 10 years ago now. When I got into it, it was just at the plateau of becoming popular and looking promising. I had a number of SIG's in the caliber and one Glock.

Ammo wise, at the time, it was almost cheaper to buy in bulk than to load for, as bulk factory ammo was about a $1 a box more than I could reload it for, so why bother. Once the prices shot up, that changed, and I switched to loading it more than buying it. Even then though, it was still pretty pricey, as components tend to be caliber specific, and the cheap 9mm bullets didnt work.

I also had a .40 conversion barrel for most of my SIG's, but soon realized, that was a waste, and just money sitting on a shelf collecting dust. I was never a .40 fan anyway, so they never got used.

I made out OK selling off the barrels and cases of .40 I had for them, as even .40 had jumped a good bit at that time. I REALLY made out selling off the unopened cases of 357SIG I had too. No complaints there.

A couple of things got me to move away from it. At the time things with the ammo shot up, I started getting out of the SIG's, and my experience with the 357SIG in the Glock wasnt looking promising, as my 31 was beating itself to death with no signs of letting up.

Contrary to what you often hear, other than the "bark", I never found the 357SIG was difficult to shoot, or had any real recoil, and actually, was basically nearly identical to 9mm in recoil, especially when compared to +P, +P+. They all shoot about the same too, with maybe a little bit of difference in the POA/POI of the .40s. Nothing to worry about though.

Once I came to realize that they all pretty much perform to the same standards, and I could get about the same performance from +P+ 9mm if I wanted that extra zing, and 9mm was that much cheaper and more versatile all around, that pretty much cinched it. 9mm was the way to go, and thats where Ive ended up, for now anyway.
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Old 03-04-2019, 10:05 AM
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I noticed in the video above when he was shooting the cinder blocks, he was using 115 grain 9mm vs what, 165 grain .40's. Seems like he should have used 147s to have a more equal comparison. Not a big deal, but just pointing it out if a more apples to apples comparison was the idea.
Maybe his reasoning is that those are both at the lighter end of each caliber. If he was shooting 147gr. 9mm, he might rather compare it to 180gr .40S&W.

That's where my brain went, anyhow.

I think a lot of LE are switching back to 9mm because of recoil, and second- and third-shot placement. As a man of larger carriage, I don't notice the difference, but I know a lot of LEOs who are a lot smaller than me (men and women). That little bit of difference might make all the difference in when things escalate quickly and you need to keep your head on a swivel because you find yourself in a vicious cockfight.
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Old 03-04-2019, 10:17 AM
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It's been down near 9mm for years now and seems stable. No telling what could happen in the coming years. I've been buying the FMJ by the thousand and stockpiling them alongside my Gold Dot supply. I'm not really too worried about the price, just wanted to let anyone not up to speed know that the price is in fact not way higher than 9mm. I get the impression sometimes that people are working with info from a 1995 Guns & Ammo magazine. Did you stick qith .357 Sig? It's an awesome round.
I was just wondering. Seems you have gluts of guns and ammo for cheap, and 10 years down the road, its all dried up, and prices tend to start to go up considerably, as the availability diminishes. Probably wont be quite the case here, but I can kind of see it coming, especially if LE flat out starts dumping it.

If you shoot a good bit, and are buying it in bulk (and components as well) now while its cheap, and stack it up, you should be fine down the road.


I like the 357SIG, but I got out of it about 10 years ago now. When I got into it, it was just at the plateau of becoming popular and looking promising. I had a number of SIG's in the caliber and one Glock.

Ammo wise, at the time, it was almost cheaper to buy in bulk than to load for, as bulk factory ammo was about a $1 a box more than I could reload it for, so why bother. Once the prices shot up, that changed, and I switched to loading it more than buying it. Even then though, it was still pretty pricey, as components tend to be caliber specific, and the cheap 9mm bullets didnt work.

I also had a .40 conversion barrel for most of my SIG's, but soon realized, that was a waste, and just money sitting on a shelf collecting dust. I was never a .40 fan anyway, so they never got used.

I made out OK selling off the barrels and cases of .40 I had for them, as even .40 had jumped a good bit at that time. I REALLY made out selling off the unopened cases of 357SIG I had too. No complaints there. [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.survivalistboards.com/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

A couple of things got me to move away from it. At the time things with the ammo shot up, I started getting out of the SIG's, and my experience with the 357SIG in the Glock wasnt looking promising, as my 31 was beating itself to death with no signs of letting up.

Contrary to what you often hear, other than the "bark", I never found the 357SIG was difficult to shoot, or had any real recoil, and actually, was basically nearly identical to 9mm in recoil, especially when compared to +P, +P+. They all shoot about the same too, with maybe a little bit of difference in the POA/POI of the .40s. Nothing to worry about though.

Once I came to realize that they all pretty much perform to the same standards, and I could get about the same performance from +P+ 9mm if I wanted that extra zing, and 9mm was that much cheaper and more versatile all around, that pretty much cinched it. 9mm was the way to go, and thats where Ive ended up, for now anyway.
I stick with .40 for training. I get 1,000 round cans for about $220 or so. The 9mm is about $15 less a can. The .357 Sig shoots so much smoother that after shooting 180gr .40 all day swapping to 125gr .357 Sig is absolute cake. Shooting is one of my major hobbies and I don't have kids so I don't care how much I spend. I will go through $100 worth of .40 tomorrow morning just working on riding the short reset trigger in the 229. I don't know if you used one of those and worked out the muscle memory for riding it out until it resets and firing again but it gets so fast it almost sounds like burst fire. Keyholes too. Although people who hate calibers larger or faster than 9mm refuse to believe follow up shots are possible, let alone fast ones.

As far as +p+ vs .357 there is still a couple hundred FPS. For a round of that diameter and energy I want all the speed I can get. +p+ is a step in the right direction but I just don't have faith in the 9mm to reliably expand in varying/adverse mediums at the speeds it reaches. Maybe I am being a little too picky about it but if I'm only carrying a total of 15 or 29 rounds I want the most out of them. Any given magazine has a certain amount of millimeters. Some say 9mm gives you an extra chance to make a hit, some say it requires you to hit one more time to equal the tissue damage. All depends upon nearly infinite variables. Too many to quantify.
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Old 03-04-2019, 10:17 AM
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Maybe his reasoning is that those are both at the lighter end of each caliber. If he was shooting 147gr. 9mm, he might rather compare it to 180gr .40S&W.

That's where my brain went, anyhow.

I think a lot of LE are switching back to 9mm because of recoil, and second- and third-shot placement. As a man of larger carriage, I don't notice the difference, but I know a lot of LEOs who are a lot smaller than me (men and women). That little bit of difference might make all the difference in when things escalate quickly and you need to keep your head on a swivel because you find yourself in a vicious cockfight.
Yea, never thought about it that way about the weight comparisions.

As far as the 9mm being easier to shoot, it just is, and it just gets even better for the big "manly" men.

And since they all perform to the same standard, why would you intentionally choose something that was even just a skoshie bit harder to shoot?

And if you shoot them all, you do know there is a difference, and especially once you step away from a solid two handed hold and into different variations.

The only thing that might push me that way, would be cost. Simply because I could practice more with it. Even then though, and even with more practice, Ill still shoot the 9mm better.
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Old 03-04-2019, 11:31 AM
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James ditch boy yeager is a retard
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Old 03-04-2019, 11:39 AM
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Paul Harrel is the man.
His meat targets are different that's for sure.
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Old 03-04-2019, 02:24 PM
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I think a lot of LE are switching back to 9mm because of recoil, and second- and third-shot placement. As a man of larger carriage, I don't notice the difference, but I know a lot of LEOs who are a lot smaller than me (men and women). That little bit of difference might make all the difference in when things escalate quickly and you need to keep your head on a swivel because you find yourself in a vicious cockfight.
Higher magazine capacity has to play a role, too. For example, a full-size P320 in 9 is 17 rounds with a flush fitting magazine, while the .40 and .357 Sig are 14 rounds. Assuming 9mm performs at least comparably to the other calibers, having three extra rounds per magazine is a pretty big advantage.
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Old 03-04-2019, 03:03 PM
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One nice thing about 40 is that during every panic ammo is available, 9mm is one of the first to sell out.
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Old 03-04-2019, 03:20 PM
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It's not a matter of being a prick. This entire post devolved into people ascribing comments to proponents of 9mm, that I have frankly never seen. Especially not by anybody that has even a rudimentary understanding of ballistics. Again, nobody says "40 sucks." However, that is indeed what people allege is being said.

It smells quite strongly of the old, "I carry a 45 because they don't make a 46," or "I won't carry anything that doesn't start with 4." Both of which are statements that can only be based in stupidity. And forgive me if I lend little to no credence to a guy in his backyard, shooting a grocery cart full of items, to show how a given caliber may perform in a human body. The guy is a hobbyist. He has neither training, nor the data necessary to interpret anything, but by God, his videos sure do make the rounds.
Well....maybe I misread what you were saying, or how you were saying it. But I do mostly agree with you...especially that there are idiots on both sides.

As to the "stop"...a fight is stopped is when the fight is no longer being fought. Dead on the floor or running away, it is stopped. Maybe not as conclusively as we'd like, especially if, like the police, you then have to go pursue the guy.

But for most of us, bad guy leaving is the same as on the floor, it's over.

Yeah....they might come back. But that's a different fight.

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The 9 vs 40 debate is fun to read.
In bold above is a very important point, leaving cost out then physical size and familiarity with weapons in general does matter.
An accurate shot with any 9 is much better than a miss with any 40.
In any gun the recoil from a 40 will be sharper than the recoil of a 9. For some lite weight new shooters that fact will adversely affect any need to " think quick and pull the trigger", it might even make them dead.
Sure practice can overcome shyness but first you need to want to practice.
So in many instances 9 beats the 40 by any measure.
So, if a hit from a smaller caliber is better than a miss from a larger...the .380 in a full size gun with it's reduced recoil must be THE BEST GUN EVER!!!!!
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