9mm/.40 S&W-- Interesting - Survivalist Forum
Survivalist Forum

Advertise Here

Go Back   Survivalist Forum > > >
Articles Classifieds Donations Gallery Groups Links Store Survival Files


Notices

Advertise Here
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bersa Thunder 40 PRO 40 S&W 4.25″ 13 Rd Duo-Tone from $328.45 shipped wikiarms.com wikiarms.com 0 10-09-2018 08:39 PM
S&W M&P40C 40 S&W 3.5" 10 Rd Night Sights - $349.99 + Free Gear after MIR wikiarms.com wikiarms.com 0 07-05-2017 02:31 PM
Taurus PT100/101 40 S&W 10rd Cope's Distribuitng Cope's Distributing 0 04-11-2017 12:43 PM
40 S&W Question willallen Pistol and Revolver Forum 90 01-27-2017 09:55 PM
S&W M&P40 M2.0 40 S&W 4.25" 15 Rnd from $489 + Free Shipping wikiarms.com wikiarms.com 0 01-07-2017 11:24 AM

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-01-2019, 07:32 PM
Blackrock's Avatar
Blackrock Blackrock is offline
Gettin By
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Living in the Background
Posts: 1,395
Thanks: 289
Thanked 1,589 Times in 657 Posts
Default 9mm/.40 S&W-- Interesting



Advertise Here

Saw this the other day. Found it to be interesting. Makes some very good points.

Quick reply to this message
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Blackrock For This Useful Post:
Old 03-01-2019, 09:50 PM
Chuckleberry's Avatar
Chuckleberry Chuckleberry is offline
Limited Tolerance Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NoDak
Posts: 3,411
Thanks: 5,200
Thanked 8,066 Times in 2,598 Posts
Default

.

Been a while since I watched that. He mentioned the newer technology bullets helped the 9mm be better than it was in 1986, but while he certainly showed it, he didn't spell it out that the same technology can be applied to the 40 & most calibers. That new & improved 9mm was doing what the regular 40 HP did to the meat target. He's always poo-poo'd what he calls the "hyper ammo" like Critical Duty, but I think there you saw that the 9mm hyper ammo clearly out preformed the regular HP 9mm ammo. I think he also once again dispelled this myth so many people have that the 40 has some massively uncontrollable recoil PLUS less stopping power than 25acp. I'm quite happy with my Glock 23 loaded with Hornady Critical Duty ammo & this video is a good example why.

.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 13 Users Say Thank You to Chuckleberry For This Useful Post:
Old 03-02-2019, 02:21 AM
HappyinID's Avatar
HappyinID HappyinID is offline
VIP Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,163
Thanks: 2,420
Thanked 4,027 Times in 1,878 Posts
Default

He speaks with a nice calm voice...as he shares his opinions and feelings.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckleberry View Post
Been a while since I watched that. He mentioned the newer technology bullets helped the 9mm be better than it was in 1986, but while he certainly showed it, he didn't spell it out that the same technology can be applied to the 40
It has. And in the best examples, they test out very close to the same.


.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to HappyinID For This Useful Post:
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 03-02-2019, 09:15 AM
Blackrock's Avatar
Blackrock Blackrock is offline
Gettin By
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Living in the Background
Posts: 1,395
Thanks: 289
Thanked 1,589 Times in 657 Posts
Default

I find his videos to be well thought out and for the most part leaves it to the viewer to form their own opinion.

In many videos I have watched it is easy to tell that the presenter has a point they are trying to prove and skew the testing to make that happen. An example that I recently watched was a comparison of the 45ACP to the 10mm. The presenter was obviously biased to the 45. The discussion was related to penetration. In the testing he used a 230gr+P in the 45acp (heavy for this cartridge) and in the 10mm he used a 135gr (very light for the 10mm). Now obviously a heavy for caliber bullet will penetrate deeper than a very light for caliber bullet (this is why the 147gr has become the choice for defensive 9mm).
A more realistic test would have been a 230gr 45ACP vs 180gr 10mm and this is the testing I usually see from Harrell.

Everyone will have their own opinion of what works and what they like/shoot well. And that's the beauty of the US, something for everyone.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Blackrock For This Useful Post:
Old 03-02-2019, 12:58 PM
Hick Industries's Avatar
Hick Industries Hick Industries is online now
Live Secret, Live Happy
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Eastern Oklahoma
Posts: 14,277
Thanks: 17,712
Thanked 34,776 Times in 9,746 Posts
Default

His results are pretty consistent with my own experience. Not much difference in recoil or accuracy, only difference in power is the depth of penetration.
With a good modern hollow point, minor power calibers work well on small/medium sized critters, but major power calibers perform well on all sizes of critters.

City folks who carry strictly for social work may carry a (380, 38sp, 9 x 19), but they will likely pay up for the better ammo.
Those of us who live in rural areas will likely carry a (40 cal, 357m, 10mm) and load it with heavy hard cast bullets.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Hick Industries For This Useful Post:
Old 03-02-2019, 08:35 PM
wtr100's Avatar
wtr100 wtr100 is offline
59840 - could fix a lot
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 5,786
Thanks: 786
Thanked 11,426 Times in 3,082 Posts
Default

if someone else is buying the ammo use 40? If you have to buy it there's zero reason to go with 40.

[/thread]
Quick reply to this message
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to wtr100 For This Useful Post:
Old 03-02-2019, 09:17 PM
Disturbed70 Disturbed70 is online now
Hunter
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,947
Thanks: 1,526
Thanked 3,496 Times in 1,366 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyinID View Post
He speaks with a nice calm voice...as he shares his opinions and feelings.....



It has. And in the best examples, they test out very close to the same.


.
Don't get them started...He shoots meat, oranges, soda bottlesand bones! In his backyard! And he has a youtube channel. That doesn't stack up to shooting "jello." You won't win.
Quick reply to this message
Old 03-02-2019, 10:43 PM
Chuckleberry's Avatar
Chuckleberry Chuckleberry is offline
Limited Tolerance Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NoDak
Posts: 3,411
Thanks: 5,200
Thanked 8,066 Times in 2,598 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyinID View Post
He speaks with a nice calm voice...as he shares his opinions and feelings.....



It has. And in the best examples, they test out very close to the same.


.
LOL, so this new bullet technology works great in a 9mm, but does nothing for a 40 huh? So is it only the 9mm that benefits from this mystical technology, or is it that the 40 is the only one immune to it's power. Maybe it's just the 40 was so damn good to begin with that the old bullets couldn't be improved upon. I could see that.


.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Chuckleberry For This Useful Post:
Old 03-03-2019, 12:26 AM
MagnumWill's Avatar
MagnumWill MagnumWill is offline
Near The Glow
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Colorado
Posts: 871
Thanks: 2,779
Thanked 1,678 Times in 551 Posts
Default

Yes, man on the internet... keep telling everyone .40 is no good anymore, and you should get a 9mm...


(Meanwhile, Will is poring over used .40s on Gunbroker with a grin)
Quick reply to this message
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to MagnumWill For This Useful Post:
Old 03-03-2019, 01:00 AM
Blackrock's Avatar
Blackrock Blackrock is offline
Gettin By
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Living in the Background
Posts: 1,395
Thanks: 289
Thanked 1,589 Times in 657 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumWill View Post
Yes, man on the internet... keep telling everyone .40 is no good anymore, and you should get a 9mm...


(Meanwhile, Will is poring over used .40s on Gunbroker with a grin)
I don't think he implied that at all. The majority of his observations were that there was so little difference in the shot to shot recovery time that it didn't make any difference one way or the other.

.40 is a great defensive round. As are the 10mm (40's Big Brother especially with full spec ammo), 45ACP. .357 Sig (9mm's way Big Brother) as well as the 9mm. Rather than argue about what is "Best", just find the one that works for each persons needs and enjoy.

If you don't reload, then 9mm is without a doubt the answer ($8.00/50rds today at several gun stores I went to on my city trip). I reload and cast my own bullets so that isn't a concern for me so I shoot a lot of .40, a lot of .45ACP and lately I have rediscovered my love of the 10mm.

Shoot what works for you and your circumstances.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Blackrock For This Useful Post:
Old 03-03-2019, 09:19 AM
ROCK6's Avatar
ROCK6 ROCK6 is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Georgia/Virginia
Posts: 5,715
Thanks: 6,511
Thanked 12,929 Times in 4,208 Posts
Default

The debates and discussions are academically interesting and entertaining. I've simply concluded that if pistol calibers were women, I'd be a polygamist

ROCK6
Quick reply to this message
The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to ROCK6 For This Useful Post:
Old 03-03-2019, 09:48 AM
Viper6Niner's Avatar
Viper6Niner Viper6Niner is offline
Remove Kebab
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Western WA
Posts: 3,591
Thanks: 2,169
Thanked 9,067 Times in 2,546 Posts
Default

I keep hearing people saying .40 is way too expensive. I buy my range ammo by the 1,000 round can and the difference between the 9mm and .40 is just a few dollars. It used to be the case a decade ago so maybe some people are still running with that info.

One reason I still don't carry 9mm despite improvements to ammo in general is that while gel tests are cool because they show the potential for each bullet design in a perfect setting for comparrison it doesn't show how they will perform in tissue. Introduce all those variables and you lose your scientific control. 9mm tends to be hit or miss on expansion while all larger or faster rounds perform well. I think a couple large factors in that are velocity and width of the hollow point opening. 9mm and .40 are not too different in the velocity category but .40 is wider and allows more material in to open it. I carry .40 in my M&P shield because I believe the weight and diameter help compensate for the short barrel length. My P229 is loaded with 125gr .357 Sig. The extra few hundred feet per second makes a huge difference for the narrower bullet. People will say any test in real meat is not a true test and in a manner of speaking they are right but at the same time gel tests aren't representative of what their defense ammo WILL do when used in real life, just what it COULD do. If gel people attack I will happily use 9mm.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Viper6Niner For This Useful Post:
Old 03-03-2019, 10:05 AM
AK103K's Avatar
AK103K AK103K is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,586
Thanks: 6,496
Thanked 10,941 Times in 4,440 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post
The debates and discussions are academically interesting and entertaining. I've simply concluded that if pistol calibers were women, I'd be a polygamist

ROCK6
LOL. Im well into "18-80, blind, deaf, dumb, and crazy" (slightly changed for the PC crowd. ).
Quick reply to this message
Old 03-03-2019, 01:51 PM
Disturbed70 Disturbed70 is online now
Hunter
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,947
Thanks: 1,526
Thanked 3,496 Times in 1,366 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckleberry View Post
LOL, so this new bullet technology works great in a 9mm, but does nothing for a 40 huh? So is the it only the 9mm that benefits from this mystical technology, or is it that the 40 is the only one immune to it's power. Maybe it's just the 40 was so damn good to begin with that the old bullets couldn't be improved upon. I could see that.


.
No. The newer technology solves problems that were primarily found in the earlier versions of 9mm. Core/jacket separation had a much worse effect on 9mm than it did on 40 cal. Once that issue was taken out of the equation, the differences between the rounds, in terms of effectiveness on humans became negligible.

I know hyperbole is fashionable these days, but nobody with any degree of ballistics training is saying "40 sucks." Universally, people say "pick whichever you can shoot the best, and can afford to shoot the most, and that you will be fine with whichever that ends up being." People also tend to point out that even the most proficient shooters in the world tend to shoot 9mm the best, once they actually document the testing (and don't eyeball a target or two, and say, "that looks close, and it felt about the same speed"). Furthermore, people point out the advantages of higher capacity, and the fact that 9mm is cheaper. In terms of round to round performance, there is no major difference. One is not "better" than the other.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Disturbed70 For This Useful Post:
Old 03-03-2019, 02:09 PM
ajole ajole is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 9,766
Thanks: 7,741
Thanked 22,102 Times in 7,002 Posts
Default

When someone starts producing 9mm with 160-180 grain bullets that will do 1100-1200 FPS out of a pistol barrel, Iíll start believeing 9 mm is ďas good asĒ the .40.

Until then, itís all talk.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to ajole For This Useful Post:
Old 03-03-2019, 02:31 PM
Aceoky's Avatar
Aceoky Aceoky is offline
Outside the box
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: W. KY
Age: 56
Posts: 1,208
Thanks: 22,478
Thanked 2,500 Times in 880 Posts
Default

Doesn't matter to me, I often carry both (sometimes at the same time ) and have been known to carry a 1911 in .45 acp as well. I do pay more attention to carry ammo in short tubed 9mm CC pistols for good reasons however.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Aceoky For This Useful Post:
Old 03-03-2019, 02:45 PM
AK103K's Avatar
AK103K AK103K is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,586
Thanks: 6,496
Thanked 10,941 Times in 4,440 Posts
Default

I noticed in the video above when he was shooting the cinder blocks, he was using 115 grain 9mm vs what, 165 grain .40's. Seems like he should have used 147s to have a more equal comparison. Not a big deal, but just pointing it out if a more apples to apples comparison was the idea.

I also noticed, that while the time comparison was close between the two, he was noticeably slower to the eye, trying to recover from recoil and get the next round off when shooting with the 40. At least it looked that way to me.

I know we are all different, but for me, I put a tighter burst (and I tend to shoot in bursts) on target with 9mm quicker than I can with 40 or 45. Im sure on the clock it wouldnt likely look like a big difference, but combine the time, and location of the hits, its pretty obvious.

What is kind of funny when you get into these arguments is, all of them are pistol rounds (and it works for rifles too), and all the hate seems focused on the guns and the ammo, and not the target, and getting a lot of rounds on it quickly.

It matters not what you use of the sensible rounds (and even the not so sensible), with any of them, you should be shooting them to the ground, and even when "round #1" has already finished it. The other rounds should already be on the way, before it even registers, on both of you that round one actually solved it.

And if for some reason, you know, like just life in general, #1 doesnt get it done, its not going to matter, help is already on the way.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to AK103K For This Useful Post:
Old 03-03-2019, 04:03 PM
Disturbed70 Disturbed70 is online now
Hunter
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,947
Thanks: 1,526
Thanked 3,496 Times in 1,366 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajole View Post
When someone starts producing 9mm woth 160-180 grain bullets that will do 1100-1200 FPS out of a pistol barrel, Iíll start believeing 9 mm is ďas good asĒ the .40.

Until then, itís all talk.
Until they make any commonly available, and reasonably shootable handgun round that is anything but a stopgap measure when it comes to reliably stopping/killing a human being, the differences are negligible. Handguns are lousy fight stoppers. Whether they are 9mm, 40, 357mag, 357sig, 45, 10mm. All varying degrees of crap, relying on adequate penetration and expansion to do the job. Any of the above choices offer both.

A 30 gr difference and a couple hundred fps means nothing. I know...Backyard Bubba knows more and has access to more data than the FBI and US military, and is far more educated in mechanisms of wounding, too.

As much as the "but muh 40 cal" crowd loves to say they are victimized by mean people saying stuff they never said, the reality is, universally, they appear to be the equivalent of flat earthers.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Disturbed70 For This Useful Post:
Old 03-03-2019, 04:16 PM
cantankerous's Avatar
cantankerous cantankerous is offline
Low speed , High drag
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Doin time on planet earth
Posts: 670
Thanks: 734
Thanked 1,320 Times in 402 Posts
Default

There is an old video on you tube where a trauma surgeon discusses gun shot wounds. He wasn't a gun guy just talking about all of the gun shot wounds he saw through the years.
His conclusion was the bigger diameter of the bullet the larger the wound channel.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to cantankerous For This Useful Post:
Old 03-03-2019, 04:25 PM
Chuckleberry's Avatar
Chuckleberry Chuckleberry is offline
Limited Tolerance Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NoDak
Posts: 3,411
Thanks: 5,200
Thanked 8,066 Times in 2,598 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cantankerous View Post
There is an old video on you tube where a trauma surgeon discusses gun shot wounds. He wasn't a gun guy just talking about all of the gun shot wounds he saw through the years.
His conclusion was the bigger diameter of the bullet the larger the wound channel.
`

That's one of those that seems like a no brainer's but since he's not a gun guy, he probably doesn't know a lot about ballistics, especially in regards to expansion & what velocities are ideal for expansion in a given bullet. Not to mention what velocity does to the energy dumped into a human torso in creating both temporary & permanent wound channels. He sees guys come in shot & notices those hit with a 22LR round nose don't have as much damage as a guy who got shot with a 44mag HP's. He probably doesn't notice that a guy shot with the same size bullets, but different calibers might suffer far different wounds. Say a 9mm with good HP's Vs a 357sig ball ammo. I'd bet more often than not the 9mm will fare better given those loads, same thing with a 10mm vs 40. If you have a 10mm with ball & the 40 with HP, the 40 might seem to have outperformed the 10. Bullet design & velocity are probably more important than caliber, but all lag WAY behind bullet placement.

.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Chuckleberry For This Useful Post:
Reply

Bookmarks



Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Survivalist Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Gender
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright © Kevin Felts 2006 - 2015,
Green theme by http://www.themesbydesign.net