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Old 05-30-2018, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Redlineshooter View Post
I would likely invest in one of those S&R search cameras which detects body heat or has the capacity of x-ray vision to detect people in there..

something you might need to consider whether it is worth dying for to enter such a situation..
More realistically a car mirror attached to a broom or painters poll.

Death would be a reality, sometimes not doing something has consequences also. But certainly all tactical decisions should be based on risk vs reward. In my opinion the better you are at the activity the better you can assess the real risks vs irrational fear. A lot of people think I'm crazy for doing what I do every night, but its my normal and they benefit from it.

I think a lot of preppers aren't use to taking calculated risks and this paralysis will cause them to be acted upon by others who will or need to take risks. Might you die? Of course, that's the reality of most police officers every day, you get use to that possibility, do the job if it needs done and try to mitigate those risks.

In those types of situations there will be men who step up and do what needs to be done even if others will not, despite the risk. Doing it in the safest manner possible is just smart in my opinion.
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Old 06-01-2018, 10:50 PM
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AHHH..building searches, great for the exhilaration the bring, an increase in respiration and heartbeat, the information you are working on or lack of it.
An open door may just be an open door found on a security check, or it may lead to a death sentence... or something in between.

I have no idea how many I have done in my career. Probably 90% of them were due to faulty alarms or just careless employees leaving doors unlocked.

The ones that really got you heart rate up were the pawn shops. You KNEW there were LOTS O GUNZ inside to make you search much more interesting.

The best ones are the schools searches done with rookies, Eventually they will find the door with the full length mirror on it and a shot will be fired as they see the armed person appear in front of him and the guys gun already raised. YEP.. it really does happen. I have seen it happen half a dozen times and almost did it myself a couple of times but I just couldn't being myself to shoot someone that good looking.

Over the years as you survive and learn you come up with tricks and pieces of equipment that will give you an edge. Throwable lights, door wedges, heavy cord, extendable mirrors, etc etc etc. I had a vest I carried in my bag that if it was going to be one of those BIG clearings I would drag it out of my bag and it already had all my "stuff" in it to give me a little better edge of getting away without becoming a bullet magnet. I called my vest "NEEDFUL THINGS" after the movie.

When there was that surplus of Izzy IR gear hitting the market I popped for my own set to carry with me so I wouldn't have to light myself up to see what was hiding in the dark. AND, it paid for itself a billion times over when I saw the kid with the shotgun in a dark room at a B&E and he couldn't see me. I don't know if he would have shot me, but I didn't have to find out. I backed out of line of fire and then called to him, I described him and the gun and told him to give it up, and he did. He wondered how I could see him. I just told him I great eyesight.

You can buy them books and send them to school but until you have had to go dig someone out who has already killed someone, you know the training only goes so far. Experience takes over and all those hard learned lessons are put to use. It took me over 3 hours to clear a 3 bedroom single story with a basement house looking for a guy who was wanted for murder. (this was before we had an ES Team) We knew he was in there, just didn't want to get famous finding him. Funny thing, if you can control your fear, and slow down your heart beat and breathing, you will hear him, because he can't. If you can remain motionless, I mean not move an inch for 15 minutes to half an hour, you will hear him move, because he can't not move. You use everything you have in your cookie jar and you finally isolate him into the exact location where he is, and then you have as much control as you will ever have to do what you need to do because you know exactly where he is, no surprises, simply because you have more self control and can control your fear.

Then you pull the pin and roll in the frag.(OH it would have made the job so much easier to do something like that.)
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Old 06-02-2018, 06:21 PM
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This is a great topic!
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Old 06-03-2018, 02:47 PM
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Flash Bangs are handy.



So are small road flares, to smoke a person out.
Set in a metal pot or pan, so you don't burn the building down.

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Old 06-03-2018, 02:52 PM
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Flash Bangs are handy.



So are small road flares, to smoke a person out.
Set in a metal pot or pan, so you don't burn the building down.

Torches are as well depending on your objective
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Old 06-03-2018, 02:58 PM
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Yes, most regular civilians have not had "building clearing" "training" but in this training you are probably (at least hopefully) as a cop, trying to just ferret out a bad guy and not harm any others. SHTF, you are probably not as worried about collateral damage. If you are scavenging (i.e. robbing) in SHTF scenario, I would imagine that you need to kill most anything that moves.
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Old 06-03-2018, 03:00 PM
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Torches are as well depending on your objective

Then there is this option (if you want to burn them out)

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Old 06-03-2018, 03:23 PM
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A heap of sulfur in an iron skillet will do a pretty good job of persuading he who be inside to wish to be outside.... A good and useful thread, Black Knight.
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Old 06-03-2018, 03:34 PM
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If collateral damage doesn't matter



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Old 06-03-2018, 04:00 PM
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What about having to clear a bol structure taken over by people who beat you to it during shtf?
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Old 06-03-2018, 04:04 PM
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My son was in the second battle of Fallujah

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah

He said almost everything about clearing out that town, would make your butt pucker.
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Old 06-03-2018, 04:09 PM
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What about having to clear a bol structure taken over by people who beat you to it during shtf?
That is why we have reliable comm's & a full time room/board/rent free well armed caretaker couple living at our isolated BOL.
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Old 06-03-2018, 08:56 PM
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"clearing buildings" by in large part is foolish in a SHTF particular for a "survivalist" that has stocked away resources and materials.

If you need to deny these structures burn them.
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Old 06-03-2018, 11:40 PM
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"clearing buildings" by in large part is foolish in a SHTF particular for a "survivalist" that has stocked away resources and materials.

If you need to deny these structures burn them.
Well being a "survivalist" doesn't mean having stocked resources, that at best makes you an amateur prepper. Being a survivalist means having skills, contingency plans, being adaptable to unknown versions of the future that might threaten your life.

For sure there are situations where burning a building might solve a problem, but what might make sense in one particular scenario doesn't in a thousand other situations.
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Old 06-04-2018, 12:42 AM
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While clearing a building would be a useful skill to have (IMO all skills are useful), it is moderately low on my list of skill priorities to learn. It is far too risky to undertake on my own without a team. I would rather make a temporary shelter if needed than try to clear a building on my own for use as a shelter while on the move.

If I found myself needing to clear my own BOL by myself, I would rather retreat immediately upon detecting a break in and observe from a distance for a while to gather as much information as possible about the interlopers than try to clear it by myself against an unknown number of foes.
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Old 06-04-2018, 08:08 AM
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While clearing a building would be a useful skill to have (IMO all skills are useful), it is moderately low on my list of skill priorities to learn. It is far too risky to undertake on my own without a team. I would rather make a temporary shelter if needed than try to clear a building on my own for use as a shelter while on the move.

If I found myself needing to clear my own BOL by myself, I would rather retreat immediately upon detecting a break in and observe from a distance for a while to gather as much information as possible about the interlopers than try to clear it by myself against an unknown number of foes.
You sound like a problem solver and all fighting is problem solving. Good post. Although I could come up with a number of scenarios where you would be motivated to push the fight and enter into the house. Say you left love ones at the house for short period of time while you went out to gather firewood, hunt, fish, have a meeting with the neighbor or whatever, and you return home to find the door open and nobody answers at the door when you called out.

Or a more basic right now scenario where you wake up and at night, because of a loud crash, realize someone is in your house, then hear your kid scream for help that lives on the level below you.

Those scenarios are very similar but necessitate different tactics/speed to attempt to solve the problem in the safest manner. But are definitely times when I would push forward.
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Old 06-04-2018, 02:40 PM
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There's always a possibility someone is forced to act against their better judgement out of necessity. That's why I don't exclude the need for learning to clear a house, I just put it at a lower priority to learn than things like emergency first aid, water treatment, gardening, E&E, etc.


Personally, I'm confident that I would have the jump on anyone breaking into my home. In that situation they are the ones "clearing the house" and taking the risks. I don't have kids, so I'm only defending myself. I can be the scary threat laying in wait in a spot of my choosing. Of course all that goes out the window (along with myself) if I determine I'm badly outnumbered


I guess my point is that while CQB is valuable to know, it should be a very last resort.
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Old 06-06-2018, 04:50 PM
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In my law enforcement career I have been clearing rooms and buildings for a long time. I have been exposed to a LOT of training and ideas on the subject, I've seen what I like and don't like, what works in training vs what works in the field. I cleared buildings with extremely well trained teams. I have also cleared structures by myself and with small groups of guys with various levels of training. I have also trained teams and cadets on the subject. There are many nights at work that clearing a structure is something I do multiple times a day.

The two major problems I see with the prepping community on this subject is that ONE they don't think that CQB or structure clearing is an activity that will be needed/used a lot. I THINK THIS IS A HUGE MISCALCULATION. I will probably list some of the many, many scenarios where this would be required below in another comment.

The SECOND issue I see is people assuming they are skilled on the subject because they received basic training on the subject at some point in the past, or watched a video about how the military does it. A lot of what is commonly presented as "the way" to do CQB is NOT the way it is done anymore professionally, and that is for good reason. A lot of development in technique, concepts, and strategy has taken place. CQB is problem solving and the equation is not as simple as checkers style techniques, it often takes a chess level players to do in the safest manner possible.

Context in regard to who, what, when, where and why effect tactics greatly for a successful outcome in regard to clearing structures. There is a TON of information out there on the subject for people who are willing to dig for it, and its a skill that actually takes a lot of practice to get good at.

With that said I have seen a LOT of building clearing done extremely poorly. I've seen a lot of entries go right simply because no bad guy was inside wanting to hurt us. It is a dangerous activity when done correctly, it is that much more dangerous when it is done poorly. I now enough to know I still have a lot to learn on the subject as dose most everyone.

Thoughts on the subject?

A little background via myself here seems in order.

Never was a cop of any kind. Been in the Infantry for the past 20 plus years. " Cleared " countless rooms and buildings, bunkers, etc while they were occupied by fellas that didnt see eye to eye...so to speak. ( Multiple sustained combat operations lasting a minimum of 12 months in several built up areas ( Cities) in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Somalia. ...to name the recent 3.)

A few guidelines........

1. MOUT ( Military operations in urban terrain) clearly states that if fighting in built up areas can be avoided, then do so unless you deem it as a tactical advantage . The advantage goes to the defender ( contrary to what everyone else seems to think including former military combat gurus.)
If you happen to be defending, you may have said advantage...however.....

2. There are 2 basic types of clearing buildings.... The first is what's known as precision clearing ( Think of law enforcement as well as what we were forced to do after our president declared that " major combat ops " were over a few weeks after we invaded Iraq in 03.)

The second version is referred to as Dynamic clearing". This involves slightly more powerful/ destructive means to achieve a similar goal. ( Explosives, molotovs, tanks, SP howitzers in direct fire mode, various LOS missiles, CAS, and up to and including a friken B52 bomber.

Note: In gonna skip the details in preparation for the Dynamic version ( example = a dedicated engineer element concerning mobility after the initial push), and focus on what your true motive for this thread is about...... ( SHTF and armed primarily with civilian owned small arms)

1. Avoid it in the offense if at all possible. ( Saving that blonde hair blue eyed damsel in a " hostage rescue" sounds Hollywood, and in reality will present a laundry list of risks......example. If someone else conducted a successful raid upon you and yours to begin with...then the issue did in fact start with an initial and unsuccessful attempt at preserving your force to begin with....any terrain.

2. It can be an advantage if your in the defense. Be advised that local counter attacks may have to be conducted iot regain a tactical advantage regardless. Also be advised that your " enemy" may switch from precision to dynamic at a later time.

3. Think outside the box while in urban builds. ( Defense or offense.) Example = a modern swat team vs a small but well versed team . The Swat team will take casualties regardless of the final outcome if they are on the offense. With that said, an historical example includes the use of a remotely controlled device rolled in to where an active shooter was located, and they ended up blowing that guy up iot reduce additional casualties. ( How a defender reduces that threat is relati rely simple...provided they think of it and prepare before it gets in thier face.) Unlike ROE, and RUF, shtf would severely curtail this factor....unless you are with a unit that has to follow any.

4. Folks with dedicated training and above all....actual experience at doing the real thing have a decisive advantage only if they can effectively train the cherries. ( A 1 man show it ain't.) Smart folks will be training thier replacements beforehand.

5. Mind set is a big factor. If you are afraid to get hurt, stay out of it altogether. You are in reality a liability in the end. Violence of action is simply one tool that can be utilized. It's easy to type this out and for others to read it and not truly understand exactly what this entails. I wont explain further.

6. A semiautomatic DMR trumps a dedicated bolt action presicion rifle in built up areas. ( I can get into more detail, but wont at this time) hint......TRE.

7. Perishable skills: This is one form of extreme violent action that is no time to find out that your a tad rusty. Reliance on what a body used to do can be a current miscalculation of actual abilities. ( Hope for the best/ train for the worst is a common saying around here. However.....training should be constant and concurrent along with how to adapt against/ with new technologies as they form.)

8. Expect casualties and prepare accordingly. Any guru that has done this sort of thing for real will not honestly state that " it can't happen to me". If they state that, then they are fos plain and simple. Worse than that.....if they are more concerned with themselves vs anyone else in thier team, than they are a liability to said team sooner or later. ( Fighting in built up areas requires a huge amount of recources, including medical supplies, medevac teams, and medical personell.

9. Scavengers post shtf: Call it what you want, but in reality they are looters. It is very plausible that they will be shot on sight. This affects everyone involved, and works either direction depending on the perception of the Indian that spotted a person to begin with. Regardless of if what he seen was a looter or not......shot on sight ends the debate for that individual.

Note: The above points are only a few, and are each the tip of a bigger iceberg. Specifics would entail a detailed METT TC. ....of which is only a beginning of another detailed list of crap altogether.

11B
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Old 06-06-2018, 08:51 PM
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I remember house clearing requiring lots of ammo ,grenades and men. Maybe the OP means purposeful urban recon.
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Old 06-06-2018, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunkerbuster View Post
My son was in the second battle of Fallujah

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah

He said almost everything about clearing out that town, would make your butt pucker.


He most definitely was NOT WRONG!


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