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Old 03-12-2018, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Justme11 View Post
The radar is a good thing I guess, but they can't turn it on without spoiling their stealth operating mode.



Similarly, the weapons loadout is severely limited if stealth mode is maintained.


See thatís the beauty of that method... the launching fighter doesnít need to turn their radar on at all. They blind fire it at the bearing the enemy is at and an AWACS, hundreds of miles away, steers it via datalink then engages the missileís on-board radar once itís in range.
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Old 03-12-2018, 09:59 PM
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Default F-35 Dogfight Criticisms laid to rest?

When I was playing the ďKorean Missile CrisisĒ scenario several months back Iíd send up some Korean F-16s to draw their fighters out, then as soon as they were committed Iíd start dumping dozens of AMRAAMs at the swarms of Nork fighters from well outside their detection range. Needless to say the DMZ was being littered with North Korean Migs.
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Old 03-13-2018, 01:30 AM
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Here's the Aviationist link I promised. Better late than never.

https://theaviationist.com/2016/03/0...omment-page-1/

Reading it again reminded me of another aspect to the P-38 story. The P-38 is a large airplane, and nobody expected it to be much of a dogfighter. (It was built to be an interceptor, remember.) It wasn't until some aggressive jocks started scrapping with Spitfires that the technique of the high speed stall and the use of the Fowler flap demonstrated that this twin-engine monster could in fact out-turn the lightest and most (conventionally) maneuverable fighter the British had. Later on our guys learned how to out-turn the vaunted Zero, too.

------------------------

Part of the F-35 system is that a group of aircraft can be linked together (via satellite I guess?) with enough bandwidth that radar data from one is available to all. i.e. one plane lights up its' radar, and others still in stealth mode know where to sneak in for the kill.
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Old 03-13-2018, 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted by WImountainMan View Post
See thatís the beauty of that method... the launching fighter doesnít need to turn their radar on at all. They blind fire it at the bearing the enemy is at and an AWACS, hundreds of miles away, steers it via datalink then engages the missileís on-board radar once itís in range.
Yes, for sure that is their planned method of attack, which sort of obviates the dogfighting ability. The missiles do the dogfighting with AWACs guidance and the F-35 just gets the missiles to the launch point without being detected.

My only point about the F-35 radar was that if they turn it on, they lose their stealth advantage, so it may see very little if any use.
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Old 03-13-2018, 05:47 AM
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The beauty of the F35 is the ability to synthesize inputs from many sources and build a wholistic picture of the battlespace. Imagine being able to see the engagement envelopes of the anti-air, pinpoint all US and allied aircraft, naval forces, pretty much all enemy air and even blue force ground. Imagine knowing the weapons loadout and status of every friendly air asset within 300 miles. Then other assets can be directed to engage. You don't HAVE to engage in a turning and burning dog fight because you saw those -27's coming from 200 miles since a flight of F15's picked them up on radar and the data link fed those into your system. Now since you KNOW there are some 22's up high that the 27's can't see visually or on radar, you can vector them in from behind. Oh, two got away... now they have to fight past the flight of F16's that were in the area on a CAS mission but still have their AIM9x's available. Your data link fed that info to the 16's for engagement. All of that while you were busy launching on a couple of ground targets to protect some Marines and you put an AMRAAM into a Bear.

That type of scenario is what the systems on the 35 are designed to make happen.
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Old 03-13-2018, 05:59 AM
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Worst purchase our corrupt and criminal government ever did!
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Old 03-13-2018, 07:56 AM
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The title of the thread refers to "Dogfighting." Can't see a plane with wing loading as high as the 35 being called a dogfighter. Looks like they decided to put F104 wings on an shrunken F22.
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Old 03-13-2018, 08:42 AM
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Yes, for sure that is their planned method of attack, which sort of obviates the dogfighting ability. The missiles do the dogfighting with AWACs guidance and the F-35 just gets the missiles to the launch point without being detected.

My only point about the F-35 radar was that if they turn it on, they lose their stealth advantage, so it may see very little if any use.
I think you're absolutely right. The reason the F-35 can beat older aircraft in simulated match-ups hasn't been because it can out turn and burn them, it's because it can see them first and is more difficult for those older aircraft to target. I don't want to start a huge argument with The Old Coach over which is more maneuverable, but I've seen articles and pilot testimonials that say otherwise (that the F-35 can't match the F-16 in maneuverability). But then I guess the article he read didn't say maneuverability, it said controllable. Which translates to the F-35 being more beginner-friendly (nothing wrong with that).

However, what happens when you have two 5th-gen fighters going after one-another. If their stealth-design and ECM capabilities negate their stand-off and BVR weapons it forces them into closer and closer combat. And that's why maneuverability still matters. Sure, the F-35 can stand-off all day and splash MIG-29s all day long. But if we go up against Russia or China's 5th gen fighters, we could still see the old fashioned turn-and-burn coming back because stand-off weapons are negated by avionics and stealth. I'm not sure the military brass understand this. Of course they probably don't want to believe that large-scale engagement between peer-nations is even possible anymore. So as long as the F-35 can maintain a 35:1 kill ratio against 4th-gen and older aircraft, they probably don't care if it has a -2:1 ratio against other 5th gen fighters. Those are arbitrary numbers by the way. I'm not saying the F-35 can't do the job against other 5th gen fighters like the Russian Su-57 and the Chinese J-20, I haven't given it a ton of thought or investigation. I just worry the Pentagon has gotten so used to fighting against inferior opponents that they no longer give any serious consideration to the capabilities of our closest military competitors.
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Old 03-14-2018, 01:14 PM
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So, again...

The F-35 is not designed -- nor intended -- to be a front-line air-superiority platform nor is it going to have to fulfill that role. Originally, the plan was to make an entire fleet of F-22 Raptors (which are still the best AAW platforms on the planet) to handle air-superiority and interceptor/air interdiction roles, and the F-35 Joint STRIKE Fighter was designed to be the highest-technology , latest-generation Air-to-Ground platform.

The battle-plan was to have F-22s clearing the skies of enemy fighters and/or bombers while the F-35 comes in undetected to launch precision strikes on the ground, or launch stand-off weapons from long distance, with (as mentioned several times by other posters) other platforms capable of vectoring , retargeting, and terminal controlling of the weapons.

Obviously the F-22 program got truncated (which is a damn shame, because it's an amazing platform, other than that whole oxygen problem) and the F-35 has become so expensive .... and as a result, the F-35 is having to position itself as a be-all do-it-all air combat platform. Still, the F-35 is not , Not , NOT designed to be "dogfighting" front-line near-peer enemy aircraft. It's designed to kill them before they even know they're being targeted, or sneak in undetected to launch precision air-to-ground strikes, OR carry heavy payloads for ground strikes while being covered by F-22s or F-15/F-16s to do the dog-fighting for them.


Not really fair to be like, "Oh the F-35 isn't even as good as the F-16 at dogfighting!" when the F-16 was purpose-built , initially with the SOLE ROLE as a "dog-fighter" ... but in real life, the F-16 (or realistically, Flankers, MiGs, etc.) would never even find the F-35 to kill it , they'd get flamed up the tailpipe by a Slammer missile before they knew they were in trouble.
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Old 03-15-2018, 01:03 PM
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So, again...

The F-35 is not designed -- nor intended -- to be a front-line air-superiority platform nor is it going to have to fulfill that role. Originally, the plan was to make an entire fleet of F-22 Raptors (which are still the best AAW platforms on the planet) to handle air-superiority and interceptor/air interdiction roles, and the F-35 Joint STRIKE Fighter was designed to be the highest-technology , latest-generation Air-to-Ground platform.

The battle-plan was to have F-22s clearing the skies of enemy fighters and/or bombers while the F-35 comes in undetected to launch precision strikes on the ground, or launch stand-off weapons from long distance, with (as mentioned several times by other posters) other platforms capable of vectoring , retargeting, and terminal controlling of the weapons.

Obviously the F-22 program got truncated (which is a damn shame, because it's an amazing platform, other than that whole oxygen problem) and the F-35 has become so expensive .... and as a result, the F-35 is having to position itself as a be-all do-it-all air combat platform. Still, the F-35 is not , Not , NOT designed to be "dogfighting" front-line near-peer enemy aircraft. It's designed to kill them before they even know they're being targeted, or sneak in undetected to launch precision air-to-ground strikes, OR carry heavy payloads for ground strikes while being covered by F-22s or F-15/F-16s to do the dog-fighting for them.


Not really fair to be like, "Oh the F-35 isn't even as good as the F-16 at dogfighting!" when the F-16 was purpose-built , initially with the SOLE ROLE as a "dog-fighter" ... but in real life, the F-16 (or realistically, Flankers, MiGs, etc.) would never even find the F-35 to kill it , they'd get flamed up the tailpipe by a Slammer missile before they knew they were in trouble.
Yeah, thats nice and all. But there are worries already about radarguided missiles having problems locking onto enemy stealth planes, like the Chinese stealth planes. All the long range missiles are radar guided.

Plus the stealth fighters have a small number of missiles while being stealthy ( payload bay only ).

Also , active counter measures will soon ( within a decade ) make the transition to air planes.

I would not be surprised if guns make a comeback vs peer adversaries.
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Old 03-15-2018, 01:33 PM
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Yeah, thats nice and all. But there are worries already about radarguided missiles having problems locking onto enemy stealth planes, like the Chinese stealth planes. All the long range missiles are radar guided.

Plus the stealth fighters have a small number of missiles while being stealthy ( payload bay only ).

Also , active counter measures will soon ( within a decade ) make the transition to air planes.

I would not be surprised if guns make a comeback vs peer adversaries.
If the F-35 was really intended to only be a stealthy weapons launch platform without dogfighting, this mission was already being done far better by the B2 stealth bomber. Waaay more payload.
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Old 03-15-2018, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by DWwolf View Post
Yeah, thats nice and all. But there are worries already about radarguided missiles having problems locking onto enemy stealth planes, like the Chinese stealth planes. All the long range missiles are radar guided.

Plus the stealth fighters have a small number of missiles while being stealthy ( payload bay only ).

Also , active counter measures will soon ( within a decade ) make the transition to air planes.

I would not be surprised if guns make a comeback vs peer adversaries.

I can't tell if you're just looking to complain about something and are using the F-35 as that something, you're looking to argue with me specifically, or you just don't understand the subject matter.


So we've gone from "The F-35 sucks because it's not a dogfighter" to "It uses radar-guided missiles and radar-guided missiles suck!" and btw, guns and countermeasures.



I am not exactly the biggest F-35 fanboy in the world. Frankly I think people on both sides of the military/civilian sides of the program should be in jail for the cost overruns. But that doesn't mean it's not the most advanced thing flying in the skies. Calling it bad because of dog-fighting is like saying the new Ohio-replacement Columbia-class SSBN sucks because it will lack the Tomahawk strike capability. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.... because that's not what it was made for..... and then it sucks because it carries Nukes, and we never use nukes anyway! So it sucks!

Pretty hard to respond to such an argument.
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Old 03-15-2018, 05:33 PM
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The biggest problem with the F-35 is it not having the GE-136 powerplant! Yes Iím bias, having worked on the XF and YF120 programs...😀
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Old 03-15-2018, 05:45 PM
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If the F-35 was really intended to only be a stealthy weapons launch platform without dogfighting, this mission was already being done far better by the B2 stealth bomber. Waaay more payload.
If fighting an adversary like China or Russia, a few F-35's are going to go up against a superior numbers.
As a missile platform I'm sure they'll do fine. Till they run out of missiles.
So they invent the arsenal ship concept of B-1's or B-52's carrying lots of Air to Air missiles.
Hope it works
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Old 03-15-2018, 05:49 PM
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The B-1 and B-2 are scheduled for retirement.
http://www.news.com.au/technology/in...84c2e2494c70d9

And relying on a 60 yr old B-52 to survive in a fight with Russia or China is rather optimistic.

the F-35 is a colossal screw up.

I think the next Topgun movie will go something like this.

Dangerzone musak plays for a few minutes. Launch Maverick!

Maverick spins up his lift fan. Maverick is Airborne with 2 missiles. I need a tanker quick!
Tanker fills up his war chariot.

Maverick is inbound toward bogies. I see 6 SU-37s on an intercept course.

Fox 2 Fox 2!

Well, we are empty and sitting ducks goose, let's head home.

launch the alert fighters! Launch the alert fighters! - We don't have any. Blew the budget on that miracle machine you were drivin.

1 Amraam hits and 1 misses and Tom Cruise spends the next 18 hours strutting about like a Tom Turkey waiting for his plane to be serviced for the next flight.

But the Carrier is sunk and the movie ends early.
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Old 03-16-2018, 02:49 AM
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I had the honer of working a Lockheed Martin for about 40 years and the F-35 is a excellent air craft that will protect America for a long time to come. It will also protect the other countries buy then
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Old 03-16-2018, 04:38 AM
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The Russians and Chinese are just too good at stealing or buying our technology. They'll find a way to neutralize the F-35's EW capabilities and then it will be missiles against missiles and we can't afford a 1 to 1 win-loss rate. The Marines always want a bird that's as good as what the Navy and Air Force use but strapping bombs onto this plane kind of turns it into a slow, overpriced F-18. Should have dumped the duct and built something cheaper for ground attack for the Marines and limited the F-35 to Air Force and Navy.
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Old 03-16-2018, 08:43 AM
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There have been times I've felt the A10 would be better suited for the Marine's CAS requirements. The only issue though is it is not a carrier designed platform. And now, the A10 is every bit of 40 years old and while many are trying to retire it others are fighting to keep it. Unfortunately, there isn't anything in current inventory with its capability so the political aspect is what's justifying its continued existence.
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Old 03-17-2018, 12:46 PM
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So a few different comments just made are perfectly right-

First off, absolutely right. China in particular stole a literal and figurative metric ton of info on the F-35 and quite possibly know all its secrets. However, some detailed analysis I have read suggests that while it does in fact suck they have such info, some of it still won't help them. They might know HOW the F-35 does what it does, and what could be necessary to stop it/detect it/etc. but actual practical application of that is something else entirely. So they might not be able to detect it (until too late) for some time (although they have made leaps and bounds and they continue to steal and reconfigure our stuff as their own... they basically have an F-22/F-35 clone, an Independence-class LCS clone [ahahaha suckas, that ship sucks, nice espionage job!] and are actively copying our Aegis & Railgun technologies as we speak.). They will just keep getting better. That doesn't make the F-35 WORTHLESS, just, it's worth is less than what it could have been if this technology and secrets were not cyber-stolen.

Also, about CAS, I completely and totally agree. The A-10 is an absolute CAS beast and the F-35 simply will not be able to fulfill that role. If you read about the opening battles of Afghanistan through the early stages of Iraq, we were launching F-16s with bombs and even F/A-18s on CAP vectored to support troops in contact. But they quickly realized... an F-16 flying @ 500 kts with two bombs in the Hindu Kush, may or may not hit the right target, but then need to bug out immediately to make it back to the base. The A-10s (like the Apache attack copters) could continue fighting, lighting up the enemy with rockets, guided missiles, machine gun rounds, and precision second to none. Plus, the A-10 can take an absolute BEATING. An errant round to the fuselage of an F-35 ruins millions of dollars worth of Radar Absorbent Material and fancy metals and electronics. I still think the F-35 will make an outstanding strike platform. That is not necessarily to say it will @ CAS.
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Old 03-21-2018, 04:01 AM
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Sales brochure do came in variety of form these days aren't they

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Originally Posted by Ozarks Tom View Post
I noticed they didn't mention that after it's comparatively short flight time it take two days maintenance before it can fly again.

It's a grossly overpriced and under performing white elephant that should have been cancelled years ago.
Excellent points there

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Originally Posted by Hick Industries View Post
I believe the Marine version will be an excellent replacement for the AV-8 Harrier.
From technological standpoint it's certainly "newer & more expensive"

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Originally Posted by Hick Industries View Post
The Navy version is better and far more survivalble than the F-18.
The F-35 is light years ahead of current strike aircraft used by our Allies.
F-35C is certainly far better compare to the "bug", however it's remain to be seen the OT&E, and IOC/FOC of the F-35 (all variant)

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Originally Posted by Hick Industries View Post
I believe it is a good addition to our current mix of aircraft, but IMO the US still needs to develop a modern replacement of the A-10 Warthog.
Why anyone wan't to "fix-something-that isn't broken"? A-10 is battle proven and has solid reputation. Too bad it's not available for export market, otherwise we poor & savage 3rd worlder could certainly use it to abuse more human right

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Originally Posted by Brettboat View Post
The F35 is a great example of an aircraft that can do anything, and not do any of it well. In a dog fight an SU27 can go head to head with it running 1990s era avionics... Awesome right?
I've haven't heard or read any report of Су-27 vs F35 happening outside DACT

Су-27 & F35 were design and intended to work with entirely different combat doctrine.
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