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Old 05-21-2017, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob Raskin View Post
Based on your personal experiences, what style of combat do you think is the best one to train in if you want to be able to physically defend yourself in hand-to-hand combat in the event you do not have a weapon handy?


If it is one on one with no weapons, BJJ is the way to go. This is a great art to subdue a guy without hurting him. Great for cops, COs etc.

If you are young and healthy, Mui Tai is a great offensive system but is mostly stand up strikes.

Krav Maga is a well rounded system for both younger and older people . It is designed to take out armed attackers single and multiple opponents.

If you are in the older (40+) category and just want some useful skills, plus physical fitness, find a legit Aikido dojo. It's not the best system by any means, but the joint locks, throws etc really work against the average guy on the street
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Old 05-21-2017, 08:09 PM
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I'm far too old to be in the league of extraordinary fighting guys. But, i can offer a few thoughts on real fighting that I learned/observed in 12 years as a Prison Guard in New Mexico State Penitentiary.

Some guys have exceptional trained fighting skills. Most do not. Those who do not, are very aware of their limitations when they come up against the "Big tough boys". I found it amazing how clever and inventive the unskilled fighters would get when it was down to fight and win or lose and suck something you would rather not. I found that speed and surprise almost always won. Striking the opponent at just the right time, when they were the most off their guard really was effective. Fighting skill was never so important as fighting originality. By that, it was the man who struck first and most often. Once the fight began, it was all settled in favor of the man who struck most often and kept moving as quickly as possible. I have seen a single individual, with his head on right and on constant but controlled alert to his surrounding, get attacked by three really meaningful dudes escape the trap, turn the tables, on his aggressors and win, all by simply being quick vicious and accurate. As has been said, fairness absolutely is thrown out the window. You can not afford to lose- ever! Preparedness, like hiding a paper magazine inside your clothing as make shift anti-pointed weapon defence. That means the man was aware of the type of weapons and tactics would be used against him.

I still have a good little collection of some of the most crude yet effective and vicious prison made weapons. I even have a prison made tattoo-gun. Incredibly cleverly made.

In my observations, I came to the conclusion - When you are in a pressure cooker, the mind is the part you would want to build as much (or more) as the body. Psychological power is as much a part of the fight as the hand.

A weapon is an absolute must, regardless of what it is. a 2x4 as section of rebar, a cinder block, a nail, a screw, anything is far better than the empty hand.

Viciousness is good but raw guts, is better and clever use of both is even better.

I saw an inmate challenged to a fight. The guy was big and the challenger was big. The guy being challenged was a really good fighter, but, instead of jumping up and entering the fight at once, being pretty sure he could beat the aggressor, he chose to discuss the "rules" first. Where is this fight going to take place? Will you agree to hands only, no weapons? What time? etc. The aggressor was kind of disarmed by the discussion of "rules" (He was put at a disadvantage psychologically). With the "rules" finally agreed to, The challenged man calmly said, lead the way to the place. The aggressor, walked to the agreed on place, followed close by the man being challenged. Aggressor stepped into the room, turned around and the challenged inmate instantly broke his jaw with a vicious sucker punch right cross. The aggressor went down like a sack of 'taters. Fight over. There are no rules is really the only "Rule".

I asked the man why he didn't fight the guy in a fair fight, for I had seen this man fight before and felt there was no way he could lose to that puke. He said, "I wasn't playing on probabilities. Anything can happen in a fight. I had to win. How I won made no difference."

That's pretty much been my personal philosophy on fighting tactics ever since.
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Old 05-21-2017, 10:17 PM
11evilace11 11evilace11 is offline
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MMA without a doubt.
Learning everything you can and being FIT FIT FIT is key.
My mind still thinks i can knock over anyone i want but i know from experience my body would not allow me to do this anymore because i am not fit enough and with the way things are going NOT LUCKY enough.
I used to get into a lot of fights for various reasons and if sober was never beaten , and the reason for this was simple i was FIT FIT FIT with only moderate fighting skill.
People do not realize the real effort it takes (even with Adrenalin rush) to take someone down and keep them down if you do not get a good/lucky strike in.
It is sapping and after 60 of going at it the average joe is going to be able to be blown over.
Any sort of grappling is a great skill, as a smaller guy i took a few hits to the back as i would latch onto big fellas back/neck and not let go until they fell, but in the process had my back smashed against table and walls in the process but for 40 seconds of pain i knew it was worth it in the long run to hang in there.
I do not think any of these people would have actually tried to kill me , but i always approached as though the would.
Drunk fights on the other hand were much like life now would be , i thought i could do things but my body would not allow and had my face smashed in plenty of times and the best i could say of drunk brawls is dont do it, and i was lucky that i was a ****e drunk fighter cause if you hold a neck to long you can easily kill someone and on none of those occasions would i have been justified.
Learn to grapple because real life fights are not throwing punches and kicks to knock people out like on TV, at least not in my experience.
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Old 05-21-2017, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apok View Post
If you want to train in a martial art that is effective and you will learn quick then train in one that is competitive.

It doesn't matter what it is. Boxing, judo, bjj, muay thai, wrestling whatever. As long as you're training for full contact, because that's what violence is.

Martial arts trainers have made their money for centuries by convincing people they can somehow learn to fight without actually fighting. It's baloney.

Fighting, no matter the style, is about timing/distance, technique under pressure, physical conditioning and aggression.

Competition teaches you this. Learning techniques with a compliant partner teaches you nothing about violence. That's the plain truth of it, there are no short cuts.
Excellent post.

OP there are only two schools of thought.

Those that do realistic full contact styles and use them to compete or fight.

Those who do dojo pretend styles and will never find out they don't work since they will never fight.

And most military guys are no experts either. I taught combatives in the military and its a short course designed to give soldiers a course of action while he regains his weapon, that's all.

What we told students, is the same every other military instructor in the world tells students, is that if you want high level skills learn boxing, kickboxing, mauy, thai, BJJ, wrestling, MMA or other full contact styles in your own time.
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Old 05-22-2017, 02:03 AM
KravMagoo KravMagoo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altoidian View Post
I saw an inmate challenged to a fight. The guy was big and the challenger was big. Aggressor stepped into the room, turned around and the challenged inmate instantly broke his jaw with a vicious sucker punch right cross. The aggressor went down like a sack of 'taters. Fight over. There are no rules is really the only "Rule".
Isn't this just asking to get jumped and/or worse, with weapons later? I mean, who would let this slide? Jaws heal, feelings....not as quick.
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Old 05-22-2017, 02:52 PM
dantheguy dantheguy is offline
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For the street?

You want to look up Kelly McCann, Tony Blauer and ISR Matrix. Those are the best hand to hand, scenario and battle tested training systems I've come across.

There was also this martial art called KFM - Keysi Fighting Method. Looks goofy but a lot of it was great. The founders split ways and you want to hunt down the British Founder. He trained Liam Neeson for the Taken movies..

A couple of others: Geoff Thompson, Dog Brothers (for knife and stick) and anything but Straight Blast Gym if you're looking for more MMA/ BJJ type training.
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Old 05-22-2017, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by KravMagoo View Post
Isn't this just asking to get jumped and/or worse, with weapons later? I mean, who would let this slide? Jaws heal, feelings....not as quick.
Not really. Prisoners are very much like a pack of dogs. top dogs can be challenged. But, you have to take your changes. If you lose you become game for the lesser and lesser "dogs". That is not to say someone who simply does not play the game would not "jump" you. But, you might get jumped at any time anyway. I knew of just one convict that was attacked in his bunk- he was set on fire with toilet paper. He was fortuantely not badly burned, but, it messed his head up pretty good. He did nothing to deserve the atten, but it was done as a prank and they overdid it. Real vendettas go down by total surprise, enlisting people you would never suspect. A guy might be walking down a hallway and pass someone who suddenly reaches out with a cut blade (any thing fashioned as an edge- even a piece of plastic or a can lid) and viciously slashes. You can not defend against such an attack. People are forced to do these things by coercion (strong intimidating the weak) or by "buying them" with sexual favors or drugs. Your family on the street can be threatened by confederates on the outside. They can even control staff this way.

It was a great education for me. The smallest thing can get you into incredible danger.
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Old 05-22-2017, 05:18 PM
Rob Raskin Rob Raskin is offline
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I am definitely in the 40+ age group, so this is helpful to know. Thanks!
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Old 05-23-2017, 12:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altoidian View Post
Not really. Prisoners are very much like a pack of dogs. top dogs can be challenged. But, you have to take your changes. If you lose you become game for the lesser and lesser "dogs". That is not to say someone who simply does not play the game would not "jump" you. But, you might get jumped at any time anyway. I knew of just one convict that was attacked in his bunk- he was set on fire with toilet paper. He was fortuantely not badly burned, but, it messed his head up pretty good. He did nothing to deserve the atten, but it was done as a prank and they overdid it. Real vendettas go down by total surprise, enlisting people you would never suspect. A guy might be walking down a hallway and pass someone who suddenly reaches out with a cut blade (any thing fashioned as an edge- even a piece of plastic or a can lid) and viciously slashes. You can not defend against such an attack. People are forced to do these things by coercion (strong intimidating the weak) or by "buying them" with sexual favors or drugs. Your family on the street can be threatened by confederates on the outside. They can even control staff this way.

It was a great education for me. The smallest thing can get you into incredible danger.

Damn, that is some good info. Thank you. I love hearing these real stories from former/retired Guards, more please.

So in a prison with more violent inmates, how big of a deal is it to not look weak? Like if someone wanted to just serve their time, but not get more time added on and/or maybe get rejected for probation later....should they absolutely, never fight?
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Old 05-23-2017, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Ole Grunt View Post
I have trained in multiple disciplines for over 30 years. Unfortunately, "most" schools these days focus on the sport aspect, including MMA. While it is still useful to train in any form of martial art, sport fighting can get you hurt or killed on the street against an experienced fighter. Look for schools that focus on real world self defense, like Krav Maga, Military combative, etc. If you can't find that, seek out a good Judo or BJJ school. As others have said, most fights end up on the ground anyway, so knowing what to do when you get there will pay dividends. Striking arts have their place too, but learn to roll if you are really serious about it.
Plus one for this post, I think Ole Grunt is dead-on here. Of course any HtoH combat training is probably better than nothing (primarily in preparing your body for physical combat), If you're looking to putting the 10,000 reps into a decipline, I'd focus them into one on Ole Grunt's list here. Krav Maga at the top of the list IMO. Careful with LEO designed training, after 17 years of LEO defensive tactics training (where the outcome of every interaction is to detain within non-strike/non-combat sideboards) I feel as if the "combat" has been trained out of my brain to some degree. Some may disagree and that's an oversimplification but I expect maybe some other LEO's here would know what I'm getting at and agree. Having also done some Krav Maga and BJJ, I still feel the best training I ever got for combat and street fighting was high-school wrestling- it all begins and ends with maintaining and denying balance, which is why Judo makes the short list too (not a lot of wrestling training available for middle age dudes).
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Old 05-23-2017, 01:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Raskin View Post
Based on your personal experiences, what style of combat do you think is the best one to train in if you want to be able to physically defend yourself in hand-to-hand combat in the event you do not have a weapon handy?
krav maga is my favorite. No dancing around, just getting to the point fighting (or running away).

I have done 3 years of taekwon do and 2 years of kung fu. Only a little krav maga, but I love it.
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Old 05-23-2017, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Twilight View Post
If it is one on one with no weapons, BJJ is the way to go. This is a great art to subdue a guy without hurting him. Great for cops, COs etc.
The main problem with this though is that Cops have other weapons that they can escalate to: spray, baton, taser, pistol, AR-15, 12 gauge....and they have backup, more backup and then SWAT, maybe even with an APC.....

Aside from their training and weapons, Cops also command a certain level of authority & respect. Granted that the recent Obama Admin tried and succeeded in eroding much of such, a Cop in uniform with a badge, still command both and has the Law & Court behind him later.

So the average thug on the street, IN GENERAL, is not going to go full blast on two Cops (b/c there are usually at least 2) or even at all....they may resist arrest, scuffle and run, but rarely would try to actually knock out 2 Cops.....and even more rare, would they actually target and attack cops. They know that cops will escalate...and if they happen to kill a cop, then the wrath of the Cops in that city and the surrounding will be poured the F down on that whole area...and tons of snitches would look to cash in on the reward monies. Criminal activities would suffer so all the Mafia would certainly give them up.

This is in general, why BJJ and even Aikido, can work well for cops...especially to leave less marks as compared to Cops raining punches onto a perp's face (looking horrible on Youtube). But the Average Joe is not afforded most of the above. Your attacker will go full blast on you. Not saying that BJJ can't work though, just different with Cops.
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Old 05-23-2017, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by txprep View Post
krav maga is my favorite. No dancing around, just getting to the point fighting (or running away).

I have done 3 years of taekwon do and 2 years of kung fu. Only a little krav maga, but I love it.

Here's the problem with your misconception of Krav Maga, and you did say that you've only trained "a little" so I'm not trying to berate you, just giving you info as someone who have trained a decent amount of Krav and whooped the hell out of many Krav'ers at high levels in sparring.....some were instructors....although there were legit Krav instructors there that could fight well, we just didn't spar....and most of these legit fighters/Krav instructors train pure Muay Thai, BJJ and Boxing regularly....see the correlation?

When you're new to Krav, so Level 1, they teach you to go bezerker mode, because at this point, you're w/o any training and probably not good at fighting....and will adrenaline dump anyway, etc. Basically, going berzerker is your best chance if you were to get attacked next week or something.

But as you move up in rank, say Levlel 3 (or even 2), the training gradually becomes very much like SPORTS fighting....mostly MMA, employing Muay Thai, Boxing and BJJ.....but more like MMA Lite. Because as you improve with your techniques, you now need to calm down as this is a superior form of fighting/self defense (whether in the street or ring) ....and there will be this "dancing around"...which you obviously meant the "feeling out" process between 2 trained fighter in a sports fight.

Then there are the different Federations of Krav Maga....some of them require that you fight (win or lose) in a full contact, continuous, sports fight in order to earn a Black Belt. So not points Karate nor stop & go type fights....but a full out, to KO, timed round fight. But Krav Maga is still, MMA Lite with the addition of weapons disarming training...and MMA is still superior as it is rougher, which is why you see a lot more hot chicks and women in Krav.
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Old 05-23-2017, 11:32 AM
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When you're new to Krav, so Level 1, they teach you to go bezerker mode, because at this point, you're w/o any training and probably not good at fighting....and will adrenaline dump anyway, etc. Basically, going berzerker is your best chance if you were to get attacked next week or something.

But as you move up in rank, say Levlel 3 (or even 2), the training gradually becomes very much like SPORTS fighting....mostly MMA, employing Muay Thai, Boxing and BJJ.....but more like MMA Lite. Krav.


this is what most of the martial arts crew don't get. The more people develope so called 'lethal art' or 'military combat style' the more it turns into the same strikes, punches, kicks and grapples that MMA, boxing, muay thai use.

But you will never convince most suburbanites of it because the real issue here is people want to get something for nothing.

If they can convince themselves some fat comicbook looking guy with a black belt in 'bullshido' is going to turn them into Bruce Lee without breaking sweat, they will hand over money for it.
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Old 05-23-2017, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by KravMagoo View Post
The main problem with this though is that Cops have other weapons that they can escalate to: spray, baton, taser, pistol, AR-15, 12 gauge....and they have backup, more backup and then SWAT, maybe even with an APC.....

Aside from their training and weapons, Cops also command a certain level of authority & respect. Granted that the recent Obama Admin tried and succeeded in eroding much of such, a Cop in uniform with a badge, still command both and has the Law & Court behind him later.

So the average thug on the street, IN GENERAL, is not going to go full blast on two Cops (b/c there are usually at least 2) or even at all....they may resist arrest, scuffle and run, but rarely would try to actually knock out 2 Cops.....and even more rare, would they actually target and attack cops. They know that cops will escalate...and if they happen to kill a cop, then the wrath of the Cops in that city and the surrounding will be poured the F down on that whole area...and tons of snitches would look to cash in on the reward monies. Criminal activities would suffer so all the Mafia would certainly give them up.

This is in general, why BJJ and even Aikido, can work well for cops...especially to leave less marks as compared to Cops raining punches onto a perp's face (looking horrible on Youtube). But the Average Joe is not afforded most of the above. Your attacker will go full blast on you. Not saying that BJJ can't work though, just different with Cops.
Can't really agree with your thinking on this (at all), but I don't think you're too far off on your principal which is to avoid LEO training. BJJ is a great fundamental discipline for self defense and combat- like has been pointed out, it is basically the primary discipline for much of MMA fighting. But like I mentioned in my post- LEO training is a specific version focused on detaining or immobilizing someone with some sideboard non-strike rules that don't otherwise apply. "You fight like you train" and simply put- if you're not training to gouge out some $&^#ers eyes when you get the chance, then your training is not preparing you for true combat. Same principal in why some here are advocating to avoid "sports fighting" training. If you're not an LEO I'd stay away from LEO training, but I wouldn't confuse that at all with BJJ, as it's an entirely different animal.
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Old 05-23-2017, 11:55 PM
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Can't really agree with your thinking on this (at all), but I don't think you're too far off on your principal which is to avoid LEO training. BJJ is a great fundamental discipline for self defense and combat- like has been pointed out, it is basically the primary discipline for much of MMA fighting. But like I mentioned in my post- LEO training is a specific version focused on detaining or immobilizing someone with some sideboard non-strike rules that don't otherwise apply. "You fight like you train" and simply put- if you're not training to gouge out some $&^#ers eyes when you get the chance, then your training is not preparing you for true combat. Same principal in why some here are advocating to avoid "sports fighting" training. If you're not an LEO I'd stay away from LEO training, but I wouldn't confuse that at all with BJJ, as it's an entirely different animal.
Here's the thing, I train with plenty of LEO, Secret Service, Feds, Marines, Rangers and other soldiers. And this is in an MMA gym and a Krav Maga gym. If any of these above, only had training from their perspective department, then they are no better than our average White belts in BJJ. And we rarely let noobs spar in Muay Thai (and they're usually too scared to anyway), but in general.... aren't any better than the average student who can be a male nurse or something, with the same amount of MT training. Maybe a veteran Cop may be, as they'd have more experience in H2H than most soldiers. But many Cops train at BJJ gyms due to being much better than what they can get on the job.

The notion of fighting to gouge eyes being so deadly is just fake marketing, notoriously common with the Krav Maga people. The reality is, they ONLY pretend to gouge eyes, as well as pretend most other strikes. So if you say that you'd fight the way you train, then does that mean that you'll just PRETEND eye gouge someone in a real situation?

UFC 1-4 had no disqualifying rules. Someone could eye gouge, bite, striking: nuts, throat, knees, back of the head, spine, etc. and win all of their fights for the $60k purse at the end of the night. 2 guys did try to bite and eye gouge Royce Gracie to get out of a locked in hold.. and that's why Gracie didn't let them go after they kept tapping profusely......the Ref had to pull him off. Gracie purposefully dislocated one guy's elbow and tried to put the other to sleep.

Eye gouging is not that easy when you're going to get knocked out the moment you step forward towards a trained fighter. There's no magic formula to just walk up and eye gouge a Fighter. You're aiming for a very small target; while his entire fist is heading for your face. Who's going to get there faster with more precision and power?
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Old 05-24-2017, 02:03 AM
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Not looking to start a debate, I think the LEO guys train in your gym for the same reasons I'm trying to point out about the limitations of LEO specific training. Seems like we agree on that. And you're right, most LEOs are not HtoH combat masters, and I don't pretend to be myself. As an LEO- If I'm in a HtoH battle, I've already failed somewhere. I trained before my military and LEO career, and continue to train other disciplines, so I felt like I have a well rounded understanding enough to add my input here.

My point is to the OP and others, when seeking training, to look for something more generalized and avoid LEO specific training that is often the easiest to find. You seem to favor striking disciplines, and that's cool, I've given my opinions which are similar to Ole Grunts that for the OP and others at a similar spot I'd recommend Krav Maga, BJJ, Judo and the like for a foundational skill set over a striking discipline.

I tried to use eye gouging as just an example, could make a dozen other examples of specific things that are off limits for an LEO that- when an opportunity is presented- would be missed if you're specifically trained to avoid it. It seems like you may be intentionally trying to miss my point. My disagreement was mainly with your assessment that the tool belt, backup, badge, and respect from combatants makes HtoH any different for an LEO- all the things you say don't happen because of that list, happen every single night all around the country, so I just disagree with your assessment. On that note, I can tell you of at least one night where a full-on eye gouge saved a cop's life. All 3 paragraphs you use to discredit the very notion of something like an eye gouge lead me to feel like you've spent more time fighting roided-up gladiators on a mat for points than road-rashed on the asphalt fighting for your life.

If you're a high-speed low-drag MMA Demi-god, power to you. I am not, and I don't mean to represented myself as such. It seems the OP is not either, nor are many others looking to this thread for pragmatic advice. I stand by my advice to those looking to start into some HtoH training.
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Old 05-24-2017, 07:14 AM
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in today's of self defense and martial arts, Krav maga, hapkido, ninjitsu and kali.

anything based sportstyles will likely have no practical use in a street fight unless you can find a true true teacher that can teach the true nature of the martial arts in shtf/wrol anything you acquire from the major styles in Karate/BJJ/tkd/judo/juijitsu/thai boxing/kungfu/fc karate (kick boxing)

in a ring where a point counts this is fine out side in the real world likely get yourself killed..

the reason why ninjitsu and kali make that list is because of the weapons training though if you find training in a sword style add it in there.

note: in wrol it is 1 hit 1 kill as you waste energy prolonging a fight scenario for any length of time..

NOTE: and i do not say this lightly I come from this by researching the subject for many year years and also as a martial artist to know what will and will NOT work in a fight on the streets and what is often depicted blitz and other such martial arts mags are choreographed fight scenes that often do not happen in the real world.
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Old 05-24-2017, 12:37 PM
KravMagoo KravMagoo is offline
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Originally Posted by KeyserSoSay View Post
Not looking to start a debate, I think the LEO guys train in your gym for the same reasons I'm trying to point out about the limitations of LEO specific training.
Hey, nothing wrong with a debate, that you said you didn't want to start but then proceeded to type paragraphs telling me why I was wrong Don't get me wrong, I like your posts.

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My disagreement was mainly with your assessment that the tool belt, backup, badge, and respect from combatants makes HtoH any different for an LEO- all the things you say don't happen because of that list, happen every single night all around the country, so I just disagree with your assessment.
Wait, I'm saying it rarely happens....I didn't say it never happens. You're saying that it happens every single night just means that somewhere, it happens to at least 1 LEO out of all the LEO's. That's not anything unusual nor hard to believe. It obviously doesn't happen to you every night, does it? While for each LEO, who's job it is to get themselves into such conflicts when answering calls...then that's a hell of a lot more potentially bad situations than the Average Joe ever gets in; it rarely happens that someone would go full blast on you. But for an ordinary Citizen who's getting mugged, and he fights back, then it's going to be this full blast. This was my point, we don't have the same resources, protection under Law, backup, and most important....the command of authority as you do as a Cop.

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I tried to use eye gouging as just an example, could make a dozen other examples of specific things that are off limits for an LEO that- when an opportunity is presented- would be missed if you're specifically trained to avoid it.

On that note, I can tell you of at least one night where a full-on eye gouge saved a cop's life.
You said Sports fighting don't train eye gouging, therefore an unrealistic weakness of, ie. MMA. Therefore, Sports Fighters are likely to not be able to eye gouge when their life depends on it in the street.

But here, you're saying that eye gouging is "off limits" for Cops and therefore, it's not trained to Cops by their department. But then how were these Cops' able to save their own lives by employing eye gouging then if they weren't taught nor trained by the Police Dept. to eye gouge?
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Old 05-24-2017, 12:49 PM
KravMagoo KravMagoo is offline
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Originally Posted by Redlineshooter View Post
in today's of self defense and martial arts, Krav maga, hapkido, ninjitsu and kali.

anything based sportstyles will likely have no practical use in a street fight unless you can find a true true teacher that can teach the true nature of the martial arts in shtf/wrol anything you acquire from the major styles in Karate/BJJ/tkd/judo/juijitsu/thai boxing/kungfu/fc karate (kick boxing)

NOTE: and i do not say this lightly I come from this by researching the subject for many year years and also as a martial artist to know what will and will NOT work in a fight on the streets and what is often depicted blitz and other such martial arts mags are choreographed fight scenes that often do not happen in the real world.
It doesn't sound like you're very familiar about Krav Maga. What level are you in Krav? Level 1 right? Did you actually join and stuck with it for at least a year or did you just buy a 10 class Groupon or something?

How does training to knock someone clean out with one punch, not work in the street when it works fine in the ring. And in the ring, it's 2 equally skilled and sized, trained fighters. In the street, it would usually be this Trained Fighter vs. some untrained slob who eats donuts for breakfast. Who's going to be faster, more powerful and more precise? KO's don't stop threats anymore?
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