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Old 05-20-2017, 03:57 PM
KravMagoo KravMagoo is offline
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The quickest and most efficient route towards becoming decent at unarmed self defense would be, Boxing. You can usually start sparring light to even hard, after 3 months of training. After 6 months, you'd be pretty formidable vs. most untrained people in the street that are equal to bigger, say up to 50 lbs or so or even more. 1 year, and you'll be pretty good....as long as you've sparred hard, up to full knockout power....not all the time, or even most of the time...but relatively often enough.

My main style is Muay Thai, with Boxing and BJJ and I fight MMA and Muay Thai. Muay Thai is better than Boxing in the long run as there are more ways of KO'ing someone. Even more so with MMA. But it takes a lot longer to be able to use these compared to just Boxing, as you only train hands and Boxing programs and gyms are usually more aggressive from the get go. And Boxing applies to MT and MMA once you transition into it.

Krav Maga, MCMAP, and other Self Defense only programs are OK....just not as good. They tend to get into a ton of different scenario type training....so you end up forgetting most of it and you may get good at some common techniques/scenarios....but then when it's time to spar, an equally trained & sized Boxer will light up most to all of these Self Defense Only people. Punching dudes in the face to knock them the F out, just works the best for most occasions.
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Old 05-20-2017, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Ole Grunt View Post
I have trained in multiple disciplines for over 30 years. Unfortunately, "most" schools these days focus on the sport aspect, including MMA. While it is still useful to train in any form of martial art, sport fighting can get you hurt or killed on the street against an experienced fighter. Look for schools that focus on real world self defense, like Krav Maga, Military combative, etc. If you can't find that, seek out a good Judo or BJJ school. As others have said, most fights end up on the ground anyway, so knowing what to do when you get there will pay dividends. Striking arts have their place too, but learn to roll if you are really serious about it.


1. Punching someone in the face to knock them the F out, works just the same in the street as it does in the ring. Who's going to be much better at this......a guy who trains at light to medium power contact (which is essentially, pretend fighting) or Sports Fighters who are accustomed to knocking their partners & opponents out (while taking similar damage)?

2. You tout Judo and BJJ....but Judo, is the SPORTY translation of Japanese Jujutsu by Jigoro Kano (a Jujutsu Master) who wanted to remove the cheap, low rent, low skill, damaging moves of Jujutsu, such as eye poking and finger breaking, etc. in order to be able to train & compete at full power....which first was known as Kano's Jujutsu and later became Judo.

BJJ is an even further translation of the sports based MA of Judo, but now emphasizing mostly on Judo's ground game only. And BJJ is like the MONSTER of all Sports MA right now...probably bigger than MMA, because in MMA you get punched and kicked in the face for real, so many don't opt for that "realism". Not saying that a BJJ Purple belt and up can't handle themselves in the street....just that if you say Sports Fighting is not as real in the street, then you shouldn't be bringing up one, if not the biggest, historic sports martial art ever = Judo nor the current biggest, sports martial arts by far in the last 25 years, BJJ.
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Old 05-20-2017, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by KravMagoo View Post
1. Punching someone in the face to knock them the F out, works just the same in the street as it does in the ring. Who's going to be much better at this......a guy who trains at light to medium power contact (which is essentially, pretend fighting) or Sports Fighters who are accustomed to knocking their partners & opponents out (while taking similar damage)?

2. You tout Judo and BJJ....but Judo, is the SPORTY translation of Japanese Jujutsu by Jigoro Kano (a Jujutsu Master) who wanted to remove the cheap, low rent, low skill, damaging moves of Jujutsu, such as eye poking and finger breaking, etc. in order to be able to train & compete at full power....which first was known as Kano's Jujutsu and later became Judo.

BJJ is an even further translation of the sports based MA of Judo, but now emphasizing mostly on Judo's ground game only. And BJJ is like the MONSTER of all Sports MA right now...probably bigger than MMA, because in MMA you get punched and kicked in the face for real, so many don't opt for that "realism". Not saying that a BJJ Purple belt and up can't handle themselves in the street....just that if you say Sports Fighting is not as real in the street, then you shouldn't be bringing up one, if not the biggest, historic sports martial art ever = Judo nor the current biggest, sports martial arts by far in the last 25 years, BJJ.
Great reply. I can't understand the problem with 'sports', when a 'sport' may indicate it has the largest body of full contact competitors. Also a guy against MMA suggesting BJJ and Judo in the next sentence, since they are components of MMA, particularly BJJ being about 50% of it.
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Old 05-21-2017, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Ole Grunt View Post
I have trained in multiple disciplines for over 30 years. Unfortunately, "most" schools these days focus on the sport aspect, including MMA. While it is still useful to train in any form of martial art, sport fighting can get you hurt or killed on the street against an experienced fighter.
This is a serious thing and has less to do with the 'sports' aspect than 'how we train.' I've seen too many JKD and Kenpo students get caught up in their various 'exercises' and it results in a natural 'counter to attack' mentality that skips past obvious (glaringly obvious) openings because the student needs 'permission' to attack them. Recently watched an MMA fight that could have ended *period* with a broken leg but didn't because the particular kick wasn't allowed, thus ignored. Apparently that's par for the course-- they've gone back to boxing with grappling. Is there anything particularly wrong with that? No, not really, but seconds of hesitation during a fight caused by 'but we've never done it that way' can result in some bad things happening.
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Old 05-21-2017, 08:08 AM
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Can't I just shoot the attacker, like the movie guy?
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Old 05-21-2017, 08:43 AM
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I guess I am going to be a lonely voice re: ground fighting. Yes, MMA fighters win on the ground, but MMA is not street fighting. If a street fight goes to the ground and there are multiple opponents - or even nearby spectators - the goal is to GET BACK UP as quickly as possible to avoid a stomping and to keep options like flight open.
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Old 05-21-2017, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by gdf View Post
I guess I am going to be a lonely voice re: ground fighting. Yes, MMA fighters win on the ground, but MMA is not street fighting. If a street fight goes to the ground and there are multiple opponents - or even nearby spectators - the goal is to GET BACK UP as quickly as possible to avoid a stomping and to keep options like flight open.
MMA is not just ground submissions, the standing grapple and disenaging from people holding onto you is a useful skill in a melee. As is getting up off the ground quickly. No sport or style in the world does this better under fire than MMA.
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Old 05-21-2017, 10:24 AM
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Recently watched an MMA fight that could have ended *period* with a broken leg but didn't because the particular kick wasn't allowed, thus ignored. Apparently that's par for the course-- they've gone back to boxing with grappling.
Hmmm doesn't sound right to me, what sort of kick was it? MMA allows muay thai attacks, which are the kings of kicking. Thai fighters wiped out the world champs in karate, full contact karate and kickboxing in that order through 1975-1985. Then all these groups started thai training to get better.
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Old 05-21-2017, 11:08 AM
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During my years in the US Army Special Forces, I had the good fortune to work with, and study under many masters in various martial arts. These include judo, karate, taiquando, shaolin kung fu, but my favorite is the one I grew up with in Southeast Texas...East Texas Whup-ass!!
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Old 05-21-2017, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Rob Raskin View Post
Based on your personal experiences, what style of combat do you think is the best one to train in if you want to be able to physically defend yourself in hand-to-hand combat in the event you do not have a weapon handy?
OP I have train in multiple martial art (including weaponized) and I never find any martial art that is "the best" for whatever purpose that be.

If you planning to train to survive full-contact engagement, then I recommend you start train in whatever martial art you comfortable with.

Eventually in realistic situation, nobody going to remember what kind of style were use during the engagement, only who survive and who doesn't.
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Old 05-21-2017, 12:13 PM
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If you want to train in a martial art that is effective and you will learn quick then train in one that is competitive.

It doesn't matter what it is. Boxing, judo, bjj, muay thai, wrestling whatever. As long as you're training for full contact, because that's what violence is.

Martial arts trainers have made their money for centuries by convincing people they can somehow learn to fight without actually fighting. It's baloney.

Fighting, no matter the style, is about timing/distance, technique under pressure, physical conditioning and aggression.

Competition teaches you this. Learning techniques with a compliant partner teaches you nothing about violence. That's the plain truth of it, there are no short cuts.
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Old 05-21-2017, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by gdf View Post
I guess I am going to be a lonely voice re: ground fighting. Yes, MMA fighters win on the ground, but MMA is not street fighting. If a street fight goes to the ground and there are multiple opponents - or even nearby spectators - the goal is to GET BACK UP as quickly as possible to avoid a stomping and to keep options like flight open.

I don't think you know what MMA is.
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Old 05-21-2017, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Captned View Post
Can't I just shoot the attacker, like the movie guy?
It depends. Is it that easy to shoot someone after they've attacked you? I mean are they going to announce that they're attacking and give you ample time and distance to draw and shoot?

Or would it usually be that you're both screaming and cussing...so within KO range and he suddenly swings? What if you're caught and get KTFO? What good is a gun then?

Would you have just shot him during the screaming and cussing session? Even fatboy, George Zimmerman, took his beating like a man....so he did try to fight with his hands first.....before losing and almost going out unconscious.... with injuries to prove it....before shooting Trayvon. And look at how well that ended up for him in Florida, a Castle Doctrine w/Stand Your Ground state to boot. Over $1 million in legal defense fees and years of crap to deal with. He probably can't even go out in public now.
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Old 05-21-2017, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by drjones013 View Post
This is a serious thing and has less to do with the 'sports' aspect than 'how we train.'

Recently watched an MMA fight that could have ended *period* with a broken leg but didn't because the particular kick wasn't allowed, thus ignored. Apparently that's par for the course-- they've gone back to boxing with grappling. Is there anything particularly wrong with that? No, not really, but seconds of hesitation during a fight caused by 'but we've never done it that way' can result in some bad things happening.
In MMA, kicks to the knee are not allowed, but they happen often and are overlooked....unless it was blatantly intentional. Even oblique kicks that targets the upper thigh but often hits the knee, are rarely called. Plenty of roundhouse kicks land right on the knee.

Trained Fighters who must adapt to various rule sets, not just in competitions but also during training....which has even more rules....would be quite proficient in the street because our brains are more accustomed to adapt. And then there are the much higher levels of skills, power, experience, etc. compared to those who aren't Fighters. It's like when I fight Muay Thai...I'm not going to go stupid all of the sudden and take someone down or even sweep them illegally. This is an extra added skill to be able to adapt to different environments.....in the streets, with NO RULES.....it would make it much easier as now I have no rules to worry about. Nothing stops me from soccer kicking someone's head in (other than possibility of going to jail for 2nd degree murder).
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Old 05-21-2017, 02:34 PM
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Well, in my experience, though I trained in a number of styles, I always have fallen back on jiu-jitsu, with maui tai techniques to back it up with the striking. Ah, and combining some of the aiki-jujitsu joint locks with the jiu-jitsu holds really helped as well.

As for what kind of jiu-jitsu...if you're a smaller person, focus on BJJ. If you're larger/stronger, Nihon jujitsu is fine. I'd recommend people train judo for the throws as well. The more you know...the more you know. Oh, and lest I forget...Krav Maga is kind of the new rage but IS very effective.

Bottom line it all comes down to how hard you train. Look at the early UFC's since MMA is about the closest thing to real fighting that you can see. Royce Gracie was tearing people up left and right. It didn't, contrary to what people might like to think, prove that BJJ was just so much better than kickboxing, karate or what have you. But Royce TRAINED so hard, most of his opponents just couldn't match that. Their training ill prepared them for a real fight.

So, if you're really looking to prep yourself for real fighting, I think the best you can do is get into one or more of those styles and pick schools that train hard. Then if you want to pick it up another notch, go compete in MMA. You'll prove a lot to yourself if successful and bottom line, you'll learn if you have the ability to translate what techniques you know into the 'real world' and use them effectively.

A black belt is only good for holding your pants up. It means you know a certain gamut of techniques in that particular art and can execute them. It means nothing when it comes to proving whether you have the timing and ability to use those same techniques in a dark alley against an actual opponent.
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Old 05-21-2017, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Apok View Post
If you want to train in a martial art that is effective and you will learn quick then train in one that is competitive.

It doesn't matter what it is. Boxing, judo, bjj, muay thai, wrestling whatever. As long as you're training for full contact, because that's what violence is.

Martial arts trainers have made their money for centuries by convincing people they can somehow learn to fight without actually fighting. It's baloney.

Fighting, no matter the style, is about timing/distance, technique under pressure, physical conditioning and aggression.

Competition teaches you this. Learning techniques with a compliant partner teaches you nothing about violence. That's the plain truth of it, there are no short cuts.
This. A shorter simpler version of what i meant. Absolutely. HOW you train and training HARD is more important than what specific style you pick. The only thing I'll add is that the good thing about some MMA schools now and some Krav Maga places is that they incorporate techniques from multiple styles. So that may be more effective than say training in jiu-jitsu and kickboxing like I first mentioned. If you find a school that teaches both striking and grappling techniques together, and trains hard, you've got a good base to start from, IMHO.
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Old 05-21-2017, 04:43 PM
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Not disputing most of what you have to say. I have competed in MMA and kickboxing as well, and while I actually prefer standup fighting, my experience is that many fights end up on the ground. True, Judo and BJJ have become sports for the most part, but like all Martial Arts, do have their roots in self defense and can prepare someone for a ground fight. Also, while I had quick hands and feet, not everyone does. so for a less athletic person who may not have great hand eye coordination, I am a fan of the ground arts. Started training when I was 12 in...you guessed it, TKD, then moved on to Kyokushin, Ishin Ryu, and eventually ended up in an MMA in my 30s. It opened my eyes to the value of ground fighting as the experienced fighters were often able to take it to the ground when they realized they were outmatched on their feet. My personal favorite ground art to train in was with our gyms wrestling coach, so we can throw that out there too, even though it is a sport as well. Again, just my opinion. We are all entitled to one and feel I am certainly entitled to mine after 30+ years of training, competing, teaching, fighting, and actual combat in the armed forces. You have your opinion, I have mine.

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Originally Posted by KravMagoo View Post
1. Punching someone in the face to knock them the F out, works just the same in the street as it does in the ring. Who's going to be much better at this......a guy who trains at light to medium power contact (which is essentially, pretend fighting) or Sports Fighters who are accustomed to knocking their partners & opponents out (while taking similar damage)?

2. You tout Judo and BJJ....but Judo, is the SPORTY translation of Japanese Jujutsu by Jigoro Kano (a Jujutsu Master) who wanted to remove the cheap, low rent, low skill, damaging moves of Jujutsu, such as eye poking and finger breaking, etc. in order to be able to train & compete at full power....which first was known as Kano's Jujutsu and later became Judo.

BJJ is an even further translation of the sports based MA of Judo, but now emphasizing mostly on Judo's ground game only. And BJJ is like the MONSTER of all Sports MA right now...probably bigger than MMA, because in MMA you get punched and kicked in the face for real, so many don't opt for that "realism". Not saying that a BJJ Purple belt and up can't handle themselves in the street....just that if you say Sports Fighting is not as real in the street, then you shouldn't be bringing up one, if not the biggest, historic sports martial art ever = Judo nor the current biggest, sports martial arts by far in the last 25 years, BJJ.
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Old 05-21-2017, 04:59 PM
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For the OP, as you can see, there are many schools of thought on this, and I knew you would get a number or responses. However, I think "most" of us can all agree on one thing. Don't put all your eggs into one basket. Train in multiple disciplines if they are available to you. A good MMA school is a good start and I do recommend competing. The more times you get rocked or submitted, the better you will become eventually. There is simply no replacement for experience. I Suppose my "sports" comments were not as clear as they should have been and were never meant to be taken the way they were. Heck, outside of a few, almost all of them are sports now and you need the experience of actual fighting to become truly skilled at it. With that said, there's are ways to disable or kill people that are not allowed, or even taught, in a sporting environment. Eye gouges, throat punching, etc tends to be frowned upon in the ring, but a well placed punch to the throat will disable just about anybody you face, at least long enough for you to remove yourself from the situation. Anyway, good luck in your search. Hope you find what you are looking for.
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Old 05-21-2017, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Ole Grunt View Post
Not disputing most of what you have to say. I have competed in MMA and kickboxing as well, and while I actually prefer standup fighting, my experience is that many fights end up on the ground. True, Judo and BJJ have become sports for the most part, but like all Martial Arts, do have their roots in self defense and can prepare someone for a ground fight. Also, while I had quick hands and feet, not everyone does. so for a less athletic person who may not have great hand eye coordination, I am a fan of the ground arts. Started training when I was 12 in...you guessed it, TKD, then moved on to Kyokushin, Ishin Ryu, and eventually ended up in an MMA in my 30s. It opened my eyes to the value of ground fighting as the experienced fighters were often able to take it to the ground when they realized they were outmatched on their feet. My personal favorite ground art to train in was with our gyms wrestling coach, so we can throw that out there too, even though it is a sport as well. Again, just my opinion. We are all entitled to one and feel I am certainly entitled to mine after 30+ years of training, competing, teaching, fighting, and actual combat in the armed forces. You have your opinion, I have mine.
I have to agree with this. I DO understand that if you're facing multiple opponents 'on the street' you probably don't want to take things to the ground where you can get kicked and stomped. But then again, in the street I don't care WHO you are...if you're up against more than one opponent, it's going to hurt. Real life ain't like in the movies, at least most of the time.

Another thing I'd say is that Judo cam from jiu-jitsu, not the other way around. Judo is just the throws of jiu-jitsu with most of the other techniques taken out. It's more of a sport form.

BJJ is simply a philosophy difference within jiu-jitsu. It emphasizes techniques and an approach to help a smaller person take out a larger opponent or at least defend. Nihon jujitsu emphasizes more taking the offensive and getting into a dominant position via a throw or something. They both have the same moves in them...there's no magic secret techniques. After all, there's so many ways to choke someone, break an arm, etc. The difference between the two is in the philosophy and what is emphasized by each.

Many martial arts have the same techniques that others do. If you go to a Krav Maga class for example, you'll learn a lot of the same techniques you would in jiu-jitsu, kickboxing or Muay Thai, Sambo, etc. It's how you put those techniques together and the overall philosophy that differs more. Not saying all arts are the same but AM saying that many if not most at least share a good number of techniques between them.
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Old 05-21-2017, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Ole Grunt View Post
For the OP, as you can see, there are many schools of thought on this, and I knew you would get a number or responses. However, I think "most" of us can all agree on one thing. Don't put all your eggs into one basket. Train in multiple disciplines if they are available to you. A good MMA school is a good start and I do recommend competing. The more times you get rocked or submitted, the better you will become eventually. There is simply no replacement for experience. I Suppose my "sports" comments were not as clear as they should have been and were never meant to be taken the way they were. Heck, outside of a few, almost all of them are sports now and you need the experience of actual fighting to become truly skilled at it. With that said, there's are ways to disable or kill people that are not allowed, or even taught, in a sporting environment. Eye gouges, throat punching, etc tends to be frowned upon in the ring, but a well placed punch to the throat will disable just about anybody you face, at least long enough for you to remove yourself from the situation. Anyway, good luck in your search. Hope you find what you are looking for.
Well said, especially about the experience and competition. What holds most people back or at least what I saw when people would walk in the door, was the physicality. You need to be prepared to train hard and that like most intense workouts, there's going to be some pain involved. Now a good school will carefully monitor how training proceeds, but a lot of people have unrealistic expectations of being a bad ass after a few classes or have an inflated sense of themselves as soon as they walk thru the door. Once they're exposed to the harsh reality of working with more experienced students, they can become disillusioned and then they don't come back.

Can't even count how many 20 year olds I had walk into the studio and claim that they were active Navy Seals or "masters" in Ninjitsu or BJJ black belts (that usually takes about 10 years if you're COMMITTED). After getting exposed in their first class 99% never came back. Or big guys that looked tough that left after a month or two while only coming in once a week anyway. Different expectations maybe but same results.

In the end like anything else, you need to train and train hard to get good at whatever style you pick to train in. The harder you train and the harder you push, the better you will get. Pick the experienced "tough guys" in the class to spar with once you're comfortable. You'll learn more in getting your butt kicked and WHEN you get to where you're holding your own, or beating them, THEN you'll know you've really made some progress!
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