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Old 06-25-2019, 08:40 PM
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You can't just leave us hanging like that. I can't be the only one who wants to hear about this draw lol.

Great post(s) from you in this thread btw
GOT a call of an "injury report" at a local hospital.
nothing came from the hospital about any issues,
so
I go in,
working alone,
no flashlight,
no stick,

Injured party is back in a treatment area so I am getting info from his intake chart.
all of a sudden there is yelling, there are running nurses, an orderly goes flying in a ball down the hall.

Charging out of the back is this rather bloody, 6'5" mid 20s white guy with furious eyes I step out to stop him and he reaches out and grabs me by the front of my shirt with one hand and by the throat with the other and lifts me off the ground.
"HUH?"
(remember, I am 6'2" 220 and with all my gear and boots on over 230, and he seemed to not be bothered by my weight other than he had his arms bent so I was close to him.)

Falling back on expedience I came over the top with a hard right fist right on the bridge of his nose. HE let go and sort of staggered back, at which time I fell back on my most scientific principle of hand to hand and kicked him right square in the crotch.... with absolutely NO visible effect. (Combat boots)
HUH?
So, when all else fails, do it again... (remember, brown belt karate, I know how to kick people) this time I kick him hard enough to literally lift him to his tiptoes and I mean SQUARE in the GONIES. ... NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!
HUH?
It finally dawns on him what I was trying to do, he glares at me and says "I am gonna kill you." and the real fight began.
He came in to grapple and rip my head off, I wanted to keep him off of me because he was on some serious juice making him impervious to any pain.
So, I was using elbows, forearms, feet, knees, he kept trying to rip my head from my body... throwing every hard and dirty shot I could.

(In the background I could hear the staff screaming "Hit the alarm" a panic alarm that went directly into our dispatch. I knew help would be forthcoming so long as I could hold out. Also, because of the fact I knew help was coming I did NOT use blows that I knew could cause permanent injury, such as going for the eyes, or possible death by hitting him in the throat.)

Another factor in his favor, he is still bleeding from his arm laceration that he was there for, thereby making him slippery to grab onto.

So while I am dancing with the guy one of the hospital security guys dives in and then gets kicked in the head by the BG and he is down, then another orderly joins the frey and jumps on his back like a monkey, not sure what he was trying to accomplish but it was a distraction.

The security guy started to get back into it when I saw a chance and I took the guy off his feet and down he went with me on top. I flipped around so now I am on my back laying on his chest and stomach. From an aerial view it would have looked like a cross.

I then started working him for serious, roll one way and elbow to the face, roll the other an elbow to the crotch, face crotch face crotch working him like a perverse speedbag. Meanwhile the security guy and orderly are hanging onto his legs so he has no leverage. Every time he starts to try to pick his head up he is getting another elbow square in the face.

About the tenth, twelfth, fourteenth.. who knew but after a LOT of elbows to the face and crotch he finally says he gives.
I roll him over, get the cuffs on him just as the first cops come boiling through the doors. They look at me and ask how badly hurt am I? I was covered in blood, my uniform was in tatters. One of my collar brass pieces was literally bent in half and twisted 90 degrees. My shirt was split right up the back, no seam there, he just pulled the shirt material hard enough to split it.

The back story...
My wayward youth, according to his parole officer had just finished doing 6 years in Jackson State Prison for armed robbery and for 6 years he did nothing but lift weights and take on all comers. I got him when he was 6 weeks out of Jackson.
He was fairly impervious because he was high as a kite on speed, and that was why he smashed his hand through a plate glass window causing the damage requiring the hospital trip.

Cannot claim it as a "win" because I did have help.
and
If I had met him on the street in a traffic stop or such and was in the same fight, I would have stepped back and shot him... probably a LOT of times.
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Old 06-27-2019, 02:09 AM
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This is short sighted at best. A cane may be a formidable weapon, but when you multiply a cane x4 you have complete devastation of all opponents.

Enter: The Walker.

If a cane is better than TWO guys with a folding knife in each hand, a walker is equal to 16 wielded knives!

You can also mount a weapon system, laser targeting, storage, jet thrusters, the possibilities are endless ......

You are welcome.

Don't forget the strobes... Useful for confusing and fighting off all the nursing home zombies, especially during a power outage

And a battery operated red/blue cherry will get all those wheelchairs to pull over to the side of the hall
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Old 06-27-2019, 03:31 AM
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WHAT EVER anyone chooses, so much of it depends on your size and what works for someone your size.
^ ^ ^
THIS


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I SPENT about 30 years as a cop
20+ was working inner city ghetto world and mostly working the 8PM -4AM shift. That shift had the most violent crimes, armed felony arrests , just about every type of violence you could perpetrate against another human took place.

It was a rare day when you did not have to hands on with someone.
When asked about how many street "fights" I had been in I used to say my record was 10,000 -0- 1.

My dad boxed in GG and college and started me boxing at a very early age. I did regular sparing until around 17 years of age.
I made it to brown belt in karate(just short of black)
I had numerous courses in hand to hand
I taught hand to hand in the academy when my schedule allowed it.
I was an FTO for years and on the street had to teach the RATS to survive the environment.

I hardly used any of it. IF I had to actually hit someone I NEVER NEVER NEVER(well hardly ever) used my hands, fists. .. although open hand to the side of the head is a highly underrated way of dropping someone. I basically used forearms and elbows. Deliver much more energy on impact with very little chance of injury to yourself.

I taught my RATS to throw away the notion of "escalation of use of force." You know, if the BG resists with 5 lbs of resistance you respond with 10lbs to overcome his resistance, then he can resist with 15lbs you go to 20 ... I taught if the BG resists with 5lbs of force, you respond with 110% of violence to overwhelm his ability to ramp up and at the time sort of put them in shock and get them into custody before they realize what happened. It works. Can't see where it wouldn't on the street in civy life.

Later in my career Most of my street arrests where I had to go hands on resulted in applying a rear arm bar choke hold and a LOT of "this cop has to be crazy" attitude.

IF you are 5'6" what worked for me might not work for you, but what always works is what Bear Bryant used to say, "IT is not the size of the dog in the fight, it is the size of the fight in the dog".
IF you are the small dog in the fight, and you have to fight... going psycho crazy goes a long way to unsettling an opponent who is just looking to kick your butt but doesn't want to risk losing his own body parts in the process...
but there is also nothing wrong with engaging in a tactical retreat to live to fight another day.
^ ^ ^
AND THIS


I was LE in a hood, too, mostly overnights. At (then) 5ft nothing female, what worked for 5'6 or 6'5 male officers simply did not work for me. OTOH, what worked for me simply did not work for them. It was far easier for me to deescalate **** and that was a whole lot better than fighting because there is always a chance of someone hitting his/her head on the pavement and becoming a vegetable for life. Unfortunately, not everything could be deescalated or resolved without force. If I did end up in a fight, I preferred the ground and took it there immediately. Everyone had height, weight, and reach on me, and I found a lot of that advantage could be lessened/minimized on the ground. Acting fast/decisively when it had to be done and understanding/applying experience and sneakiness trumps youth and skill. Using my small size to advantage (leverage and ability to move in small spaces and interesting angles created by intertwined/smushed together bodies/arms/legs) to get the handcuffs on.

Improvise reflexively and never panic.
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Old 06-27-2019, 09:59 PM
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^ ^ ^
THIS




^ ^ ^
AND THIS


I was LE in a hood, too, mostly overnights. At (then) 5ft nothing female, what worked for 5'6 or 6'5 male officers simply did not work for me. OTOH, what worked for me simply did not work for them. It was far easier for me to deescalate **** and that was a whole lot better than fighting because there is always a chance of someone hitting his/her head on the pavement and becoming a vegetable for life. Unfortunately, not everything could be deescalated or resolved without force. If I did end up in a fight, I preferred the ground and took it there immediately. Everyone had height, weight, and reach on me, and I found a lot of that advantage could be lessened/minimized on the ground. Acting fast/decisively when it had to be done and understanding/applying experience and sneakiness trumps youth and skill. Using my small size to advantage (leverage and ability to move in small spaces and interesting angles created by intertwined/smushed together bodies/arms/legs) to get the handcuffs on.

Improvise reflexively and never panic.
WHEN I was an FTO I was assigned to train a newbie who couldn't make 5' on her tiptoes and had a waist so small all the assigned gear could not fit on her belt if she used belt keepers. I used to tell her if things got rough to stand still with her feet together so I could grab her by the ankles and use her as a night stick.
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Old 06-28-2019, 03:38 AM
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Even without belt keepers I had to prioritize... The newfangled Velcro belts without the big-ass buckle helped a lot

Had a supervisor "threaten" to pick me up and use me as a night stick or battering ram... this must be a common reaction to short female officers

I always felt sorry for the big guys when we'd get someplace and they were still shooting (bigger targets). And the big guys because the patrol cars even felt cramped to me. And after FTOing a really tall guy, realizing you guys couldn't really see into cars like I could just looking right in or just yank someone through the window like pulling a shirt off a shelf.

Also felt sorry for the big guys because there was soooooooo much uniform to iron and boot to clean and polish


Got put through some very small holes/windows so I could open up the door for everyone else OK until one door was nailed and 2 x 4 shut and I had to go upstairs to find another door. And put into attics by the big guys to play "fetch" the best thing was being number 1 with someone tall number 2... four eyes forward and being small enough to chase someone through a car
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Old 06-28-2019, 01:58 PM
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Most effective, but hardest on the body, including head trauma, etc. = MMA (usually Muay Thai, Boxing, BJJ and Wrestling; then tying it all in with MMA fight strategies).

Quickest route, but maybe even more damaging to the body & head than MMA = Boxing + Wrestling.

Decent and much, much lighter on taking damage while training = Krav Maga.

Not written in stone, just in general.
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Old 06-29-2019, 12:39 PM
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Even without belt keepers I had to prioritize... The newfangled Velcro belts without the big-ass buckle helped a lot

Had a supervisor "threaten" to pick me up and use me as a night stick or battering ram... this must be a common reaction to short female officers
WELL.. it IS one of the few ways you tiny wimmins can b useful...
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Old 07-07-2019, 09:00 PM
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Like others have said Krav maga is a good starting point. The best thing to do is learn how to remain clam during stressful situations. I’ve talked about this with many of my military brothers and many of us have zero emotions and are completely calm during stressful situations. Also, 95% of people have zero hand to hand experience.
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Old 07-08-2019, 02:00 PM
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Like others have said Krav maga is a good starting point. The best thing to do is learn how to remain clam during stressful situations. Iíve talked about this with many of my military brothers and many of us have zero emotions and are completely calm during stressful situations. Also, 95% of people have zero hand to hand experience.
AND IT gets worse with following generations.
I remember fights on the playgrounds and parking lots from grade through HS.
It was NO big deal. Now you get suspended for even shaking a fist.
So a rite of passage to manhood has been replaced with counseling and anger management.
There are cops out there who have never been in a fight until they get to the academy. And academy training isn't real fighting.
For Joe civilian it is even worse since they have never fought at all, unless they went into the military.
SO
the people who can fight are us old folks, it is always good to have an advantage over the young whipper snappers.
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Old 08-03-2019, 11:08 PM
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If you want to train in a martial art that is effective and you will learn quick then train in one that is competitive.

It doesn't matter what it is. Boxing, judo, bjj, muay thai, wrestling whatever. As long as you're training for full contact, because that's what violence is.

Martial arts trainers have made their money for centuries by convincing people they can somehow learn to fight without actually fighting. It's baloney.

Fighting, no matter the style, is about timing/distance, technique under pressure, physical conditioning and aggression.

Competition teaches you this. Learning techniques with a compliant partner teaches you nothing about violence. That's the plain truth of it, there are no short cuts.

Well said. In short, you can't learn to fight without fighting.
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Old 08-06-2019, 02:00 AM
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Krav Maga is pure BS. Really. To be a good fighter you need a mix of striking + grappling. Boxing & wrestling, or thai boxing and judo for example. Add in a mix of unconventional self defense techniques (think bouncer style) and you will be good. Acquisition of skills is based on muscle memory through repetition and serious sparring. No need to hurt your head though, see what happened to Muhammad Ali.
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Old 08-06-2019, 02:57 AM
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Krav Maga is pure BS. Really. To be a good fighter you need a mix of striking + grappling. Boxing & wrestling, or thai boxing and judo for example. Add in a mix of unconventional self defense techniques (think bouncer style) and you will be good. Acquisition of skills is based on muscle memory through repetition and serious sparring. No need to hurt your head though, see what happened to Muhammad Ali.
KM has striking and grappling. Most of the techniques are taken from Boxing, Wrestling and Judo. Training sessions usually include a fair amount of cardio in the form of repititive heavy bag punching, kicking and knee strikes.

Sparring is light for intermediate students and becomes heavier for advanced students. After a couple of years, most serious practitioners will stay for the rougher 'locked door' sessions after everyone else leaves.

KM or any other self defense traning is not intended to produce cage fighters. I doubt the OP was seeking to train toward competing in MMA.
.
As self defense training goes, KM is better than most...if the instructors work the students hard and the students attend at least 3x a week and are willing to mix it up in the rough sessions.
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Old 08-06-2019, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
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Krav Maga is pure BS. Really. To be a good fighter you need a mix of striking + grappling. Boxing & wrestling, or thai boxing and judo for example. Add in a mix of unconventional self defense techniques (think bouncer style) and you will be good. Acquisition of skills is based on muscle memory through repetition and serious sparring. No need to hurt your head though, see what happened to Muhammad Ali.
KM has striking and grappling. Most of the techniques are taken from Boxing, Wrestling and Judo. Training sessions usually include a fair amount of cardio in the form of repititive heavy bag punching, kicking and knee strikes.

Sparring is light for intermediate students and becomes heavier for advanced students. After a couple of years, most serious practitioners will stay for the rougher 'locked door' sessions after everyone else leaves.

KM or any other self defense traning is not intended to produce cage fighters. I doubt the OP was seeking to train toward competing in MMA.
.
As self defense training goes, KM is better than most...if the instructors work the students hard and the students attend at least 3x a week and are willing to mix it up in the rough sessions.
The thing is you could train to be a MMA fighter and jump in a cage in about 12 weeks. Regardless of your background.

There are programs that do that now.

Which means at the end of that program you will at least have some idea what being in a fight is like.

That way you would at least know for yourself what you can and cannot get away with.

From there you could adopt some Krav concepts if you wanted based on honesty.

The reason Krav gets its b.s. reputation is because they don't get that grounding and so they rely on a whole bunch of hypothetical ideas that may not work.

There are just so many factors in a fight that are not properly addressed if nobody fights.
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Old 08-06-2019, 12:14 PM
Targe Targe is offline
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KM has striking and grappling. Most of the techniques are taken from Boxing, Wrestling and Judo. Training sessions usually include a fair amount of cardio in the form of repititive heavy bag punching, kicking and knee strikes.

Sparring is light for intermediate students and becomes heavier for advanced students. After a couple of years, most serious practitioners will stay for the rougher 'locked door' sessions after everyone else leaves.

KM or any other self defense traning is not intended to produce cage fighters. I doubt the OP was seeking to train toward competing in MMA.
.
As self defense training goes, KM is better than most...if the instructors work the students hard and the students attend at least 3x a week and are willing to mix it up in the rough sessions.
The thing is you could train to be a MMA fighter and jump in a cage in about 12 weeks. Regardless of your background.

There are programs that do that now.

Which means at the end of that program you will at least have some idea what being in a fight is like.

That way you would at least know for yourself what you can and cannot get away with.

From there you could adopt some Krav concepts if you wanted based on honesty.

The reason Krav gets its b.s. reputation is because they don't get that grounding and so they rely on a whole bunch of hypothetical ideas that may not work.

There are just so many factors in a fight that are not properly addressed if nobody fights.
As I posted previously, I agree the best way to learn to fight is to fight. As for formal fight training, I was an amateur boxer off and on over several years and had a handful of professional fights so I do know what 'formal' fight training is about.

I don't think just because someone is not going to become "a real fighter" he cannot develop some fighting skills that enable him to fight back to some degree against at least some attackers. That's like saying if someone isn't going to compete in Formula One or NASCAR he shouldn't learn some basic defensive/evasive driving skills. Or if you're not going to becone an ASE Certified mechanic, you don't need to know how to change the oil in your truck.

"The thing is you could train to be a MMA fighter and jump in a cage in about 12 weeks. Regardless of your background."

Now that's B.S. "Regardless of your background" basically says ANYONE can become a MMA fighter. That's like saying ANYONE can become a U.S. Army Special Forces Green Beret.

The correct way to say that is:

"Anyone WHO SIGNS AN ARMY CONTRACT AND WHO CAN COMPLETE U.S.Army Basic, AIT, Airborne and Special Forces training can become a Green Beret."

And

"Anyone WHO CAN COMPLETE THREE MONTHS OF LEGITIMATE MMA TRAINING can become a MMA fighter."

The point is, the vast majority of people do not have the physical strength, mental toughness, or desire to do either of those. Even if they have the physical ability, most people -especially the adults on this board working jobs to support their families- do NOT have the time to immerse themselves into a 3 month MMA training program, dedicating at least 4 to 6 hours a day (or longer) to training.

I don't think the OP is asking "What fight training will prepare me for a new career as a professional fighter?"

Nor is he asking "What fight training will prepare me to go pick fights with Russian club bouncers, LA street gangs, Navy SEAL, and LEO at a Cop Bar?"

He's looking for something 'he can handle' given whatever time constraints, employment requirements, familial obligations and whatever other limitations apply.

'Civilian' KM is a very good 'gateway' for otherwise untrained, non-fighters to get a taste of training and developing some ability to defend oneself. Or at least it was when I attended for a couple of years. Again, I'd already been fighting for decades so I wasn't there to learn to defend myself, and there was stuff I didn't 'agree with'. But anyone who says KM is all "hypothetical B.S." must not have attended training at an Israeli Krav Maga Association (IKMA) affiliate.

There are always charlatans who claim to teach pretty much anything you can imagine. Assessing a fighting system on the basis of what a fake, self proclaimed "Master" offers in a 2 hour 'Women's Self Defense Seminar' or some such is as valid as saying all physicians are fakes because you saw someone with a 'Life Experience Degree' from a mail order diploma mill.

Crazy crap in YouTube videos is also suspect. I see all kinds of YouTube videos by 'Lord Grand Dragon Master' making stupid claims about fighting. That includes both:

- guys claiming silly, fairy tale stuff will work,

and also

- dismissing solid techniques as ineffectual.

For example, I watched a YouTube video this morning where some fool TALKED (for several minutes) about how a THROAT PUNCH is "hypothetical B.S." I suspect because throat punching is not allowed in MMA, he believes it's "hypothetical B.S."

Of course, he didn't demonstrate how getting punched in the throat is ineffectual. Sorta like how none of the guys who yell about the .45's "knockdown power" want to demonstrate the ineffectiveness of a 9mm to their brainstem.

I don't believe in the 'Dim Mak Death Touch' as peddled by the late, fake Count Dante...but I do believe a properly executed straight jab or punch to the Adams Apple can be a rough morning.
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Old 08-06-2019, 02:58 PM
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THE PROBLEM with training in just one discipline that lives or dies by only THEIR rules and moves is there is ZERO flexibility for outside the box thinking.

When I started my karate, I had already been on the street for almost 3 years, I spent about 12 years of regular boxing/sparing, had several other SD courses in judo, other hand to hand and street fighting.

So, I am on the mat for the first time after doing the basics, letting them know I will not get killed with contact., and the first guy I am squared up against is a butthead and 2 belts above me at the time. He s a little smaller than me. But, he was good, a trash talker but still good. And I was NOT gonna let this guy make a classroom example of me. He is gonna really dazzle me and get me right off the bat with a spinning back kick. He started everyone that way. The second he started to turn I closed, got him from the rear, had an armbar choke hold on him and turtled him on the mat where he had no leverage and was trying to figure out WTF happened. EVERYONE in the place was in shock including the BB teaching the class.

"We don't do that" were the first words out. And my response was ," yeah but what if someone else does, what do you do?" UUUHHHH...

So it is great training and good cardio and teaches you some good things but don't ever get so locked into one discipline you have no flexibility to respond to someone who does not fight by your rules.
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Old 08-08-2019, 09:31 AM
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I grew up with both wrestling and boxing. Both are useful but the real weapons on the human body: large bones. Head butts, knees, and elbows are what's worked best for me. I'm not a large man, I might go 160 with my boots on these days and found out the hard way that with bigger guys I just couldn't box and grapple my way through. Guys with little or no training aren't a problem but if they know how to fight and outweigh you by as little as 20lbs......I won sometimes but took too many beatings NOT to learn something else.

Head butts to someone's face can be like clobbering them with a bowling ball. The head, believe it or not, is approx 10% of your total weight. So it can be anywhere between 10-20 pounds. Most of it solid bone.

Elbows. Not the point, but the flat part from the point where it bends extending on towards the wrist. Solid bone. Properly thrown, especially from the right position like a full mount, it's like taking a club to someone's face. Don't discount standup elbows though. They don't look like much, but they are damaging.

Knees. Again, heavy bone. Effective in both stand up and ground fighting. Your can be a piston, drive that knee in to the body or face.....it's nasty.

Muy Thai is a particularly good discipline that employs lots of knees and elbows but don't forget some basic wrestling because as someone else pointed out a good wrestler can be extremely difficult to deal with if you don't know how.

Throw in some judo or bjj and round it all out. Use what works and remember a street fight isn't a match or about fairness.

Eye gouges, groin shots, fish hooking, a handful of dirt to the eyes, bites, and yes....hair pulling. If it's a long hair your up against there's no better way to drive knees into his face than by grabbing the hair and yanking the head down. Sure you can clinch behind the neck but you have more leverage and control of the head if you can grab the hair.

Note: dirty tricks can help you but if that's all you know a trained fighter will likely hurt you anyway.
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Old 08-08-2019, 11:44 AM
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Krav Maga is pure BS. Really. To be a good fighter you need a mix of striking + grappling. Boxing & wrestling, or thai boxing and judo for example. Add in a mix of unconventional self defense techniques (think bouncer style) and you will be good. Acquisition of skills is based on muscle memory through repetition and serious sparring. No need to hurt your head though, see what happened to Muhammad Ali.
There are multiple krav systems. But the modern systems are essentially MMA light with a focus on escaping, not winning a fight. The goal is to brutally create an opening that lets you escape.

In fights you engage, disengage, then square up. The goal is do force your opponent to submit or get a KO. In krav you are try to avoid engaging. If you are forced to engage, you fight hard, get an opening and escape.

Krav pretty much incorporates boxing, wrestling, and groundwork focused on escapes (getting out of mount, getting out of guard, a few basic sweeps) but includes a few submissions as well.

Krav also includes some basic takedowns like double leg, single leg, uchi mata.

Krav has hooks, upper cuts, cross, jabs, boxing defense etc.

Krav has basic kicks, teep, round house, front kick.

A new MMA fighter with similar physiology and the same amount of time (say 3 months training) would probably destroy a krav practitioner in the ring. But make it a street fight where the krav practitioner wins if they get away and the MMA practitioner wins if they gain a KO or a submission and the krav practitioner is going to win. Now decrease the training time or the physicality of the krav practitioner and the krav practitioner will still get wins with half the training time and maybe as much as 1/2 to 2/3 the physicality.

that is the point of krav maga.

Here is an example of curriculum from the USKMA, striking, takedowns, and grappling are all included. As a white belt, the ground fighting is mainly how to get out of mount and guard.

https://uskma.com/curriculum/
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Old 08-08-2019, 12:55 PM
Targe Targe is offline
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Originally Posted by Sorel View Post
Krav Maga is pure BS. Really. To be a good fighter you need a mix of striking + grappling. Boxing & wrestling, or thai boxing and judo for example. Add in a mix of unconventional self defense techniques (think bouncer style) and you will be good. Acquisition of skills is based on muscle memory through repetition and serious sparring. No need to hurt your head though, see what happened to Muhammad Ali.
There are multiple krav systems. But the modern systems are essentially MMA light with a focus on escaping, not winning a fight. The goal is to brutally create an opening that lets you escape.

In fights you engage, disengage, then square up. The goal is do force your opponent to submit or get a KO. In krav you are try to avoid engaging. If you are forced to engage, you fight hard, get an opening and escape.

Krav pretty much incorporates boxing, wrestling, and groundwork focused on escapes (getting out of mount, getting out of guard, a few basic sweeps) but includes a few submissions as well.

Krav also includes some basic takedowns like double leg, single leg, uchi mata.

Krav has hooks, upper cuts, cross, jabs, boxing defense etc.

Krav has basic kicks, teep, round house, front kick.

A new MMA fighter with similar physiology and the same amount of time (say 3 months training) would probably destroy a krav practitioner in the ring. But make it a street fight where the krav practitioner wins if they get away and the MMA practitioner wins if they gain a KO or a submission and the krav practitioner is going to win. Now decrease the training time or the physicality of the krav practitioner and the krav practitioner will still get wins with half the training time and maybe as much as 1/2 to 2/3 the physicality.

that is the point of krav maga.

Here is an example of curriculum from the USKMA, striking, takedowns, and grappling are all included. As a white belt, the ground fighting is mainly how to get out of mount and guard.

https://uskma.com/curriculum/

Very well explained. I have no idea where the "KM is all hypotheticsl B.S." comes from. I can only guess that poster is confusing KM with something else...or saw some YouTube video purporting to be KM. That or maybe some of the advanced level weapon disarms and so forth.

To expand on your post, the purpose in a 'survival' situation is, as you said, to GET AWAY. It's not to "win a bout". If you get the upper hand it's probably time to leave before the police arrive...or the bad guy's friends show up and decide to jump in.

There may be situations where you need to "finish the job".....but most people don't have stomach for that. Despite fantasies many people have about living in a Post Apocalyptic world where they are the leader of a band of rugged, snake-eating, cold-blooded killers...most people are not going to wind up in Beyond Thunderdome.
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Old 08-08-2019, 12:59 PM
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dontbuypotteryfromme dontbuypotteryfromme is offline
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KM has striking and grappling. Most of the techniques are taken from Boxing, Wrestling and Judo. Training sessions usually include a fair amount of cardio in the form of repititive heavy bag punching, kicking and knee strikes.

Sparring is light for intermediate students and becomes heavier for advanced students. After a couple of years, most serious practitioners will stay for the rougher 'locked door' sessions after everyone else leaves.

KM or any other self defense traning is not intended to produce cage fighters. I doubt the OP was seeking to train toward competing in MMA.
.
As self defense training goes, KM is better than most...if the instructors work the students hard and the students attend at least 3x a week and are willing to mix it up in the rough sessions.
The thing is you could train to be a MMA fighter and jump in a cage in about 12 weeks. Regardless of your background.

There are programs that do that now.

Which means at the end of that program you will at least have some idea what being in a fight is like.

That way you would at least know for yourself what you can and cannot get away with.

From there you could adopt some Krav concepts if you wanted based on honesty.

The reason Krav gets its b.s. reputation is because they don't get that grounding and so they rely on a whole bunch of hypothetical ideas that may not work.

There are just so many factors in a fight that are not properly addressed if nobody fights.
As I posted previously, I agree the best way to learn to fight is to fight. As for formal fight training, I was an amateur boxer off and on over several years and had a handful of professional fights so I do know what 'formal' fight training is about.

I don't think just because someone is not going to become "a real fighter" he cannot develop some fighting skills that enable him to fight back to some degree against at least some attackers. That's like saying if someone isn't going to compete in Formula One or NASCAR he shouldn't learn some basic defensive/evasive driving skills. Or if you're not going to becone an ASE Certified mechanic, you don't need to know how to change the oil in your truck.

"The thing is you could train to be a MMA fighter and jump in a cage in about 12 weeks. Regardless of your background."

Now that's B.S. "Regardless of your background" basically says ANYONE can become a MMA fighter. That's like saying ANYONE can become a U.S. Army Special Forces Green Beret.

The correct way to say that is:

"Anyone WHO SIGNS AN ARMY CONTRACT AND WHO CAN COMPLETE U.S.Army Basic, AIT, Airborne and Special Forces training can become a Green Beret."

And

"Anyone WHO CAN COMPLETE THREE MONTHS OF LEGITIMATE MMA TRAINING can become a MMA fighter."

The point is, the vast majority of people do not have the physical strength, mental toughness, or desire to do either of those. Even if they have the physical ability, most people -especially the adults on this board working jobs to support their families- do NOT have the time to immerse themselves into a 3 month MMA training program, dedicating at least 4 to 6 hours a day (or longer) to training.

I don't think the OP is asking "What fight training will prepare me for a new career as a professional fighter?"

Nor is he asking "What fight training will prepare me to go pick fights with Russian club bouncers, LA street gangs, Navy SEAL, and LEO at a Cop Bar?"

He's looking for something 'he can handle' given whatever time constraints, employment requirements, familial obligations and whatever other limitations apply.

'Civilian' KM is a very good 'gateway' for otherwise untrained, non-fighters to get a taste of training and developing some ability to defend oneself. Or at least it was when I attended for a couple of years. Again, I'd already been fighting for decades so I wasn't there to learn to defend myself, and there was stuff I didn't 'agree with'. But anyone who says KM is all "hypothetical B.S." must not have attended training at an Israeli Krav Maga Association (IKMA) affiliate.

There are always charlatans who claim to teach pretty much anything you can imagine. Assessing a fighting system on the basis of what a fake, self proclaimed "Master" offers in a 2 hour 'Women's Self Defense Seminar' or some such is as valid as saying all physicians are fakes because you saw someone with a 'Life Experience Degree' from a mail order diploma mill.

Crazy crap in YouTube videos is also suspect. I see all kinds of YouTube videos by 'Lord Grand Dragon Master' making stupid claims about fighting. That includes both:

- guys claiming silly, fairy tale stuff will work,

and also

- dismissing solid techniques as ineffectual.

For example, I watched a YouTube video this morning where some fool TALKED (for several minutes) about how a THROAT PUNCH is "hypothetical B.S." I suspect because throat punching is not allowed in MMA, he believes it's "hypothetical B.S."

Of course, he didn't demonstrate how getting punched in the throat is ineffectual. Sorta like how none of the guys who yell about the .45's "knockdown power" want to demonstrate the ineffectiveness of a 9mm to their brainstem.

I don't believe in the 'Dim Mak Death Touch' as peddled by the late, fake Count Dante...but I do believe a properly executed straight jab or punch to the Adams Apple can be a rough morning.
It is exactly like saying anyone can be a MMA fighter.

And that is the point. If you can't make that step then you are probably unprepared to get in to life or death fights.

And organizations like Krav are dishonest about this.
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Old 08-08-2019, 05:02 PM
iyaayas iyaayas is offline
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Folks from a high level strict discipline often rag on KM. I think the disdain comes from the fact that krav does a little bit of everything quite well, but nothing perfect.

I'm a fan of it for beginners. It's a good base to start with, and it's a great way for a person to figure out which specific style works best for them. Some people are strikers, some grapplers or wrestlers.

Use krav to get in shape, learn a variety of skills applicable to many disciplines then evaluate. What's your weakness, strengths. What type of fighting are you most comfortable with.

Once your in good shape and have a solid base to work off, that's the time to get into what you think would best suit you.

I don't know how it translates from mma to the street but I do know one dimensional fighters just don't get far in the sport. Sure each of them has a particular style they prefer or are exceptionally dangerous with but your top level guys can change it up AND defend against any style.

Which brings up a good point. If you have to fight be mindful of how your opponent wants to fight. Chances are that's where they feel comfortable. If you don't take the fight to them, they dictate how it's going to go. It can be hard in self defense because many people often aren't sure they have to fight until they get punched or slammed.
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