Well pump, expansion tank and Cycle Stop Valve "review" - Page 3 - Survivalist Forum
Survivalist Forum

Advertise Here

Go Back   Survivalist Forum > >
Articles Classifieds Donations Gallery Groups Links Store Survival Files


Notices

Advertise Here
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Review on AMP-3 "Mastering Your Med Kit" and "Survival Suturing" DVD ensin360 Health, Fitness and First Aid 9 03-01-2017 08:11 AM
"The continuation of the thug Cycle" Athanasius General Discussion 1 01-08-2014 10:25 PM
Propane tank valve?? jandlms Disaster Preparedness General Discussion 8 03-24-2012 12:38 PM
Why is the "standard distance from cities" normally cited as one tank of gas? Floydfan2 Disaster Preparedness General Discussion 51 07-20-2011 01:42 PM
OSU's Second Amendment Research Center shut down; Anti-gun "think tank" had ties to O Gunner65 Controversial News and Alternative Politics 0 12-08-2009 09:34 AM
"In the Tank Forever": U.S. Consumers, Retailers in a "Death Spiral," 411man General Discussion 3 08-28-2009 07:57 AM
AR "Short Cycle" problem Jester Military Weapons Forum 18 10-15-2008 10:28 PM
Double Review: Maglight "SOLITARE" and "Value Tools" Folding Knife Duncan Disaster Preparedness General Discussion 2 05-22-2007 11:02 AM

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-05-2015, 09:05 AM
MattB4's Avatar
MattB4 MattB4 is offline
Don't get me started
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 15,672
Thanks: 21,921
Thanked 30,375 Times in 10,648 Posts
Default



Advertise Here

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6556 View Post
I think you missed the part where he said that this CVS valve works by RESTRICTING water flow.
No, I did not miss that. Without this device his pump might be capable of producing a much higher flow rate if allowed to run full out. But a pressure tank system has the pressure cycling between set points. During usage the pressure drops to 70psi and the pump starts it than runs until the system builds to 90psi and shuts off. If he was supplying water to his shower heads at 70psi the flow rate is going to be less than at 87psi.
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-13-2016, 02:28 PM
Valveman Valveman is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 21
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 7 Posts
Default

Just found this forum. Didn't know the "Rancher" was here or I would have joined a lot earlier so you could have had some accurate information on the CSV. I am the owner of the company and the inventor, so I think I know a little about it.

I want to thank akcooper and cujet for sharing their real life experiences with Cycle Stop Valves or CSV’s. It is funny their REAL LIFE experiences are just the opposite of what the “rancher” is trying to convince everyone will happen. The CSV doesn’t help on little pumps like the 1/3HP Rancher has, as it can barely pump enough for a small shower anyway. The function of the CSV is very noticeable and beneficial on larger pumps like the 2HP that cujet has.

I get a lot of different opinions about our web page. Some people thank me for the wealth of information provided, while others don’t seem to understand it at all. I think the ones who don’t understand are just thinking about it too hard. The CSV is just a simple valve, even though it has a complicated explanation. So when people say they don’t understand how it works, it is just a valve, it closes down when you need less water and opens up when you need more. Instead of having a handle on top that someone needs to manually close or open, it is operated by a spring and diaphragm, which pushes the valve open if the pressure drops below the spring pressure, and closes the valve when pressure gets above the spring pressure. The “trick” to the CSV is that it just cannot completely close. When you are not using any water, the pressure increases and the CSV closes as much as it can. But the smaller CSV’s only close down to 1 GPM. Since no one is using any water at the time, this 1 GPM has no place to go except the tank. Then the pressure tank fills to the shut off pressure of the pressure switch, which shuts the pump off.

On a standard water well or water pump application, the amount of water flowing is dependent on how much you are using. With the old pressure tank only system, the pump is always producing maximum flow, even when you are using a small amount of water, which is what causes the pump to fill the pressure tank and cycle on and off. The CSV only restricts the flow when you need it to do that. When you are only using one hose of water, the CSV makes the pump produce only one hose worth of flow. But if you open up a lot of water, the CSV will open up and give you as much as the pump can produce.

No the CSV is not magic, but a centrifugal impeller is. When the flow is restricted, the amp draw or power consumption naturally decreases. Not all pumps will decrease from 10 amps to 3.5 as the one cujet has. But many will decrease in amps by 50% and nearly all will decrease 20 to 30%. It is this “counter intuitive” property of any centrifugal pump that confuses people. You would think restricting a pump with a valve would make it work harder, when just the opposite is true.

And NO, the CSV will not shorten the life of a pump, it actually makes pumps last much longer. Cycling on and off is what destroys pumps, and a Cycle Stop Valve stops the cycling. The CSV takes pumps that people say have never lasted longer than 2-3 years, and has made them last 15-20 years so far, and they are still working. So if your pump has a cycling problem, as most pumps do, the CSV will extend the life of the pump by as much as 5 to 10 times. We would not still be in business after 24 years if anyone could confirm even a single pump being damaged by a CSV.

I hope I have answered all the questions posed in this thread.

Just read our reviews and references if you want to know how good they work. And call me if you have any questions, as it is best to talk to someone who knows what they are doing instead. We stand behind our products. Always have, always will. Thanks Cary
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Valveman For This Useful Post:
Old 07-13-2016, 06:43 PM
cujet's Avatar
cujet cujet is online now
I give up
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Jupiter, FL
Posts: 6,333
Thanks: 6,931
Thanked 18,506 Times in 4,814 Posts
Default

Thanks Valveman for chiming in.

I make no claims to be anything but average intelligence. Even so, as an engineer in the aviation world, this is child's play to me. It's easy to understand why it works so well in my application. I'm 100% certain others can benefit too.

To say that I'm thrilled is an understatement. I posted my review, not to argue with others about what they believe, but in an attempt at highlighting the advantages.

Advantage: The well pump start up current strains my generator. The CSV limits the pump starts to a grand total of ONE, when showering solo or during other minor water usage.

Advantage: 87PSI of constant water pressure is a wonderful thing from my shallow well setup.

Advantage: Pump switches last much longer. As a 2HP pump is hard on non commercial well pump switches.

I unfortunately neglected to mention that we have a luxury 2 person shower. Prior to the CSV, when we used both sides, (his and hers, 6 showerheads) , the pump was at capacity and the pump never cycled. HOWEVER, when showering solo, it was infuriating to me, as the pressure swings were beyond my tolerance...
Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 07-13-2016, 10:48 PM
6556 6556 is offline
human
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 4,430
Thanks: 734
Thanked 4,355 Times in 2,090 Posts
Default

deleted! db post!
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-13-2016, 10:59 PM
6556 6556 is offline
human
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 4,430
Thanks: 734
Thanked 4,355 Times in 2,090 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valveman View Post
Just found this forum. Didn't know the "Rancher" was here or I would have joined a lot earlier so you could have had some accurate information on the CSV. I am the owner of the company and the inventor, so I think I know a little about it.

I want to thank akcooper and cujet for sharing their real life experiences with Cycle Stop Valves or CSV’s. It is funny their REAL LIFE experiences are just the opposite of what the “rancher” is trying to convince everyone will happen. The CSV doesn’t help on little pumps like the 1/3HP Rancher has, as it can barely pump enough for a small shower anyway. I'm certainly not speaking for "Rancher" but I have a 1/3hp pump that pumps 1680gpm @ ten feet. That's a lot of water for a shower. Besides that, I think he said that he had TWO 1/3 pumps, for a total of 2/3rds hp? The function of the CSV is very noticeable and beneficial on larger pumps like the 2HP that cujet has.

I get a lot of different opinions about our web page. Some people thank me for the wealth of information provided, while others don’t seem to understand it at all. I think the ones who don’t understand are just thinking about it too hard. The CSV is just a simple valve, even though it has a complicated explanation. So when people say they don’t understand how it works, it is just a valve, it closes down when you need less water and opens up when you need more. Instead of having a handle on top that someone needs to manually close or open, it is operated by a spring and diaphragm, which pushes the valve open if the pressure drops below the spring pressure, and closes the valve when pressure gets above the spring pressure. The “trick” to the CSV is that it just cannot completely close. When you are not using any water, the pressure increases and the CSV closes as much as it can. But the smaller CSV’s only close down to 1 GPM. Since no one is using any water at the time, this 1 GPM has no place to go except the tank. Then the pressure tank fills to the shut off pressure of the pressure switch, which shuts the pump off.

On a standard water well or water pump application, the amount of water flowing is dependent on how much you are using. flow rate = amount used" Is that the same as.." you get what you pay for"? With the old pressure tank only system, the pump is always producing maximum flow, even when you are using a small amount of water, which is what causes the pump to fill the pressure tank and cycle on and off. The CSV only restricts the flow when you need it to do that. When you are only using one hose of water, the CSV makes the pump produce only one hose worth of flow. But if you open up a lot of water, the CSV will open up and give you as much as the pump can produce.

No the CSV is not magic, but a centrifugal impeller is. Did you just say that? you build magical centrifugal impellers? Is there any chance that the magic you use might be hacked, and used for a different application. ? When the flow is restricted, the amp draw or power consumption naturally decreases. Not all pumps will decrease from 10 amps to 3.5 as the one cujet has. But many will decrease in amps by 50% and nearly all will decrease 20 to 30%. It is this “counter intuitive” property of any centrifugal pump that confuses people. You would think restricting a pump with a valve would make it work harder, when just the opposite is true.

And NO, the CSV will not shorten the life of a pump, it actually makes pumps last much longer. Cycling on and off is what destroys pumps, and a Cycle Stop Valve stops the cycling. The CSV takes pumps that people say have never lasted longer than 2-3 years, and has made them last 15-20 years so far, and they are still working. So if your pump has a cycling problem, as most pumps do, the CSV will extend the life of the pump by as much as 5 to 10 times. We would not still be in business after 24 years if anyone could confirm even a single pump being damaged by a CSV.

I hope I have answered all the questions posed in this thread.

Just read our reviews and references if you want to know how good they work. And call me if you have any questions, as it is best to talk to someone who knows what they are doing instead. We stand behind our products. Always have, always will. Thanks Cary


When you say your valve isn't for small systems/hp. Is this based on cost vs return on investment?

I have a shallow well pump. It's a 3/4hp "Jet pump". (it's located in our basement and I can hear the bearings singing to me... "replace me")

Our main problem here is our Bosch Tankless Water heater doesn't play well with our varying well pressure. The water heater has a number of "software safeties" looking at flow rate in vs pressure and inlet temp vs temp on the outlet. There are times when it takes a "long time" for the hot water to turn on (and reach the Faucet).

You think your valve could resolve this response time problem?
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-14-2016, 08:34 AM
Valveman Valveman is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 21
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 7 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cujet View Post
HOWEVER, when showering solo, it was infuriating to me, as the pressure swings were beyond my tolerance...
Thanks cujet! Those pressure swings in the shower from the pump cycling on and off are very annoying to me as well. Not only do I not like the varying pressure, but I cringe when it happens from knowing how bad it is for my pump.

Most people only run a 40/60 pressure switch for a house. However, I have set up house pump systems at really high pressures for things like those multiple shower heads or when the house is multi-story or high up on a hill.

Many people will say they do not notice the varying pressure from the pump cycling, I think they are just use to it. Because when they get a CSV and the cycling goes away, then they say they never realized how bad the varying pressure was until they experienced real constant pressure.

Most will say they have never had such strong pressure in the shower. I even hear funny replies like "I don't even need soap in the shower anymore, the strong pressure just blast the dirt off". And the pressure seems stronger even though we did not increase the pressure from the 40/60 pressure switch setting. All we did was put in a CSV that holds a steady and constant 50 PSI for as long as the shower is on. And the constant 50 PSI seems like much stronger pressure than the average 50 PSI you receive as a pump is continually cycling on and off between 40 and 60.
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-14-2016, 09:08 AM
Valveman Valveman is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 21
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 7 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6556 View Post
When you say your valve isn't for small systems/hp. Is this based on cost vs return on investment?
No not on ROI, but the fact that a small pump does not deliver any extra water, which causes the pump to cycle on and off. Most small pumps have to run full out just to supply a shower, and many times they don't even supply enough to have good pressure in the shower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6556 View Post
I'm certainly not speaking for "Rancher" but I have a 1/3hp pump that pumps 1680gpm @ ten feet. That's a lot of water for a shower. Besides that, I think he said that he had TWO 1/3 pumps, for a total of 2/3rds hp?
I hope you meant 1680 gallons per hour (gph not gpm). But even at 1680 gph that is 28 gpm, and a 1/3 HP pump could only do that at zero pressure like with a sump pump. At 50 PSI from 10', as needed for house pressure, a 1/3HP only delivers about 4 gpm or 240 gph.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6556 View Post
Did you just say that? you build magical centrifugal impellers? Is there any chance that the magic you use might be hacked, and used for a different application. ?
Oh yes I did say that and it is true! But I cannot take credit for inventing the centrifugal impeller. That would have been a really smart person from long ago like Archimedes. I only claim to be lucky enough to understand the idea and to have figured out a way to take advantage of it.

And I say it is magic because it is one of the only true counter intuitive things I know of. Everybody would think that using a valve, any valve, to restrict the output of a pump would make the pump work harder. Because of the "magic" of a centrifugal impeller this is the opposite of the truth. When the flow from a centrifugal pump is restricted or throttled with a valve, the amps and therefore the power consumption of the pump is reduced.

With a piston or any positive displacement type pumps the amps would go up, but with a centrifugal pump the amps go down. And nearly all water well or booster type pumps use centrifugal impellers, not piston pumps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6556 View Post
I have a shallow well pump. It's a 3/4hp "Jet pump". (it's located in our basement and I can hear the bearings singing to me... "replace me")
A 3/4HP jet pump can produce 12-13 GPM at 50 PSI. So it will cycle on and off while using anything smaller than 12 GPM, like a 3 GPM shower. So it could benefit from a CSV and you would like the constant pressure as well. However the bearings are a different issue. All manufacturers now use sealed bearings (non-grease-able) that are only designed for a certain number of hours. When you use up those hours, you will need a new pump. Can you say "planned obsolescence"? However running at full load amps all the time increases the motor heat and further shortens the life of the bearings. Coasting along at low amperage from using a CSV will help lower the heat and make the bearings last somewhat longer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6556 View Post
Our main problem here is our Bosch Tankless Water heater doesn't play well with our varying well pressure. The water heater has a number of "software safeties" looking at flow rate in vs pressure and inlet temp vs temp on the outlet. There are times when it takes a "long time" for the hot water to turn on (and reach the Faucet).

You think your valve could resolve this response time problem?
Oh yes! We sell a lot of CSV's specifically for this problem with instant water heaters. When a well or booster pump is cycling on and off like between 40 and 60, the flow at the shower head is much lower when the pressure is at 40 and the heater turns off. Then when the pump cycles back on and the pressure is close to 60 the shower flow increases and the heater comes back on. When the shower receives a constant 50 PSI from a CSV, the flow is also constant, and the heater stays on indefinitely.
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-14-2016, 09:42 AM
MattB4's Avatar
MattB4 MattB4 is offline
Don't get me started
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 15,672
Thanks: 21,921
Thanked 30,375 Times in 10,648 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valveman View Post
...
And I say it is magic because it is one of the only true counter intuitive things I know of. Everybody would think that using a valve, any valve, to restrict the output of a pump would make the pump work harder. Because of the "magic" of a centrifugal impeller this is the opposite of the truth. When the flow from a centrifugal pump is restricted or throttled with a valve, the amps and therefore the power consumption of the pump is reduced.

With a piston or any positive displacement type pumps the amps would go up, but with a centrifugal pump the amps go down. And nearly all water well or booster type pumps use centrifugal impellers, not piston pumps.

...
It is not magic at all. It simply happens because centrifugal pump impellers can spin freely in the water whereas positive displacement styles will seize up if the water is not moved. Water does not compress.

So if the centrifugal impeller is not moving water it means less work is being accomplished. Less work means lower power consumption. However there is still energy transferred to the water from the movement. The water in the impeller housing heats up. This can destroy seals and even lead to also possibility of steam being created.

What with cavitation damage to the pumps impeller, and other considerations due to constant pump operation, I am highly skeptical of claims that this valve improves pump life. At best it smooths out variations in system pressure that the use of a pressure switch and hydromatic tank has.
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-14-2016, 10:26 AM
Valveman Valveman is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 21
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 7 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattB4 View Post
So if the centrifugal impeller is not moving water it means less work is being accomplished. Less work means lower power consumption. However there is still energy transferred to the water from the movement. The water in the impeller housing heats up. This can destroy seals and even lead to also possibility of steam being created.

What with cavitation damage to the pumps impeller, and other considerations due to constant pump operation, I am highly skeptical of claims that this valve improves pump life. At best it smooths out variations in system pressure that the use of a pressure switch and hydromatic tank has.
There in lies the "trick" to the CSV. The CSV cannot close completely and therefore cannot deadhead the pump. The minimum flow designed into the CSV is the amount needed to keep the water from heating up and to prevent cavitation. If you are not using at least this minimum amount of water delivered by the CSV, then that amount of water is still being pumped into the pressure tank until the tank is full and the pressure switch shuts the pump off. At no time will the CSV ever let less water pass through the pump than is needed to protect the pump.

Pumps are made for continuous duty. They will last longer when running 24/7 than when cycling on and off no matter what. I was highly skeptical 24-25 years ago myself. But every year those first pumps installed with CSV's in 1993 get a year older, my skepticism decreases even more. I really do not know how much longer they will last because of the CSV, but I am getting older and may not even live long enough to find out.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Valveman For This Useful Post:
Old 07-14-2016, 11:18 AM
MattB4's Avatar
MattB4 MattB4 is offline
Don't get me started
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 15,672
Thanks: 21,921
Thanked 30,375 Times in 10,648 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valveman View Post
...

Pumps are made for continuous duty. They will last longer when running 24/7 than when cycling on and off no matter what. ...
I totally disagree. Common water system pumps are not built for continuous operation. They are designed to run and stop. Not to mention any rotating machinery wears as it runs. I have had pumps that cycle and last practically forever. It really depends on the quality of the pump and electric motor and the duty requirements.

ETA: There are also a few other nagging issues with some of your claims. They contradict themselves. If your CSV valve is hooked up with a pressure tank than it will by necessity allow the pump to shutoff on no demand. If it did not shutoff (run 24/7) than it also would encounter periods of no demand and thus be "deadheaded". If it cycles on and off the only question than becomes does it do it less than in a system with a adequate sized pressure tank? The other question is does more constant operation of the pump increase power requirements or is a wash? Demand of the system is going to require X amount of gallons being pumped regardless of anything else.
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-14-2016, 02:26 PM
Valveman Valveman is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 21
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 7 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattB4 View Post
I totally disagree. Common water system pumps are not built for continuous operation. They are designed to run and stop. Not to mention any rotating machinery wears as it runs. I have had pumps that cycle and last practically forever. It really depends on the quality of the pump and electric motor and the duty requirements.
No really! It says right on the nameplate of almost any jet or submersible pump, “Made for Continuous Duty”. Farmers would have a hard time if they were not. They usually run those pumps for months or years at a time.

Now as I said earlier, the bearings in a jet pump are only rated for so many hours. But you can use those up a little at a time as the pump cycles on and off, or you can use them all in a few years of running continuously. If they had a grease cert and a shot of grease now and then, the bearings would last much longer. The bearings are really the only wearable part in a jet pump that is running continuously. The seal has a film of water between the plates, which basically makes it frictionless. The impeller is suspended at the end of a shaft and doesn’t touch anything. The windings in the motor do not wear as much when maintained at a constant temperature, as compared to multiple cycles of heating and cooling. The centrifugal start switch, capacitor, and pressure switch are only engaged for a pump start. So when running continuous they do not wear at all.

A submersible motor on the other hand, has a Kingsbury type thrust bearing with a film of water between the plates. These type bearings are frictionless as long as the film of water is present. Most submersible impellers are also held up by the motor shaft and do not touch anything. The few impeller types that do touch the diffuser are supposedly made out of almost frictionless plastic. As long as a submersible pump is running continuously, everything is frictionless and they will last almost forever. I have one that pumps water to animals on a farm that has been producing 3 GPM and running continuously now for over 12 years. The only time it goes off is during the occasional power outage, which starting after the power comes back on is putting the only real wear on it.

Starting, especially re-starting from cycling before the motor has had time to cool down properly is the hardest thing for any pump. Sure most smaller pumps will survive a lot of cycling and last a long time, but they would last even longer if they didn’t have to start so much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattB4 View Post
ETA: There are also a few other nagging issues with some of your claims. They contradict themselves. If your CSV valve is hooked up with a pressure tank than it will by necessity allow the pump to shutoff on no demand. If it did not shutoff (run 24/7) than it also would encounter periods of no demand and thus be "deadheaded".
The CSV only lets the pump run 24/7 IF you are using water 24/7. When there is no demand it lets the pressure tank fill and shut off as you say. So there is no way to deadhead the pump.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattB4 View Post
If it cycles on and off the only question than becomes does it do it less than in a system with a adequate sized pressure tank?
It all depends on how you use the water and which size pressure tank you use with the CSV. When you are using more than 1 GPM for long periods of time, the pump runs continuously and never cycles no matter the size of tank.

When using a CSV with what you would call “an adequate size tank”, overall the pump would cycle less for intermittent uses. It would still have the same size tank for toilet flushes, but the CSV would keep the pump from cycling for longer uses like showers, where is might cycle a half dozen times when showering without the CSV.

You can also use a CSV with a really small tank. The pump will cycle every time you flush a toilet, but still will not cycle during showers or irrigation demands. Overall the pump will cycle about the same number of times as when using “an adequate size tank” without a CSV.

The more water is used for things like garden hoses, filling pools, irrigation, and heat pumps, the more cycles the CSV will save.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattB4 View Post
The other question is does more constant operation of the pump increase power requirements or is a wash? Demand of the system is going to require X amount of gallons being pumped regardless of anything else.
Again that depends on how you use the water. If all your long-term watering needs are set up to run the pump close to its Best Efficiency Point, it will be a wash. If some or all of your irrigation demands are far short of BEP, it will cost a bit more. But at the same time constant pressure can increase the efficiency of your irrigation by making the sprinklers hit the right spot every time they go around.
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-14-2016, 03:11 PM
MattB4's Avatar
MattB4 MattB4 is offline
Don't get me started
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 15,672
Thanks: 21,921
Thanked 30,375 Times in 10,648 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valveman View Post
No really! ...
Really no! You confuse the issue between irrigation systems that run for long periods with a constant demand and residential water systems that are periodic demands and intermittent operation. You also misstate what continuous duty rating means. It does not mean that a item lasts longer if it is ran continuously! It simply means that item does not fail quickly from running continuously until it wears out. It could last forever if you never run it.

Your valve seems to have a use but you seem to want to over claim about it. This raises suspicion. That you also play games with technical knowledge is a further red flag. I will pass on installing one. But thanks for making the effort to explain your device.
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-14-2016, 03:30 PM
Valveman Valveman is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 21
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 7 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattB4 View Post
Really no! You confuse the issue between irrigation systems that run for long periods with a constant demand and residential water systems that are periodic demands and intermittent operation. You also misstate what continuous duty rating means. It does not mean that a item lasts longer if it is ran continuously! It simply means that item does not fail quickly from running continuously until it wears out. It could last forever if you never run it.

Your valve seems to have a use but you seem to want to over claim about it. This raises suspicion. That you also play games with technical knowledge is a further red flag. I will pass on installing one. But thanks for making the effort to explain your device.
The exact same pumps are used for long periods of constant demand as are used for residential water systems. Pumps don't know if they are watering plants or people. But it is a proven fact that pumps will last longer when running continuously than when cycling on and off.

I am not playing any games with technical knowledge. Not over claiming anything. Just ask those who have one.

Thanks for making the effort to understand it. Sorry you are not able to do so.
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-14-2016, 03:52 PM
MattB4's Avatar
MattB4 MattB4 is offline
Don't get me started
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 15,672
Thanks: 21,921
Thanked 30,375 Times in 10,648 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valveman View Post
...
Thanks for making the effort to understand it. Sorry you are not able to do so.
You are incorrect again. I do understand the device. I just do not accept your claims about it. Sorry that you not able to understand the difference.
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-14-2016, 04:29 PM
Valveman Valveman is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 21
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 7 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattB4 View Post
You are incorrect again. I do understand the device. I just do not accept your claims about it. Sorry that you not able to understand the difference.
Sorry but if you understood not just the device, but how pumps really work, you would know these are not just my claims, but actual facts.

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-14-2016, 04:46 PM
MattB4's Avatar
MattB4 MattB4 is offline
Don't get me started
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 15,672
Thanks: 21,921
Thanked 30,375 Times in 10,648 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valveman View Post
Sorry but if you understood not just the device, but how pumps really work, you would know these are not just my claims, but actual facts.

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
Nor can you use anecdotal evidence to prove it. Your explanation is wrong in several areas. We have already been through that. You rely on good sounding but misleading technical information to do the old dazzle with BS approach.

Your claims are not facts. Facts would be a controlled experimental study. Hand waving only works in the movies. No point to carry this on. I did some research and I see where you can do that to incredible lengths as you have on other Forums.

You will just have to explain to the hand.
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-14-2016, 05:21 PM
Valveman Valveman is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 21
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 7 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattB4 View Post
Nor can you use anecdotal evidence to prove it. Your explanation is wrong in several areas. We have already been through that. You rely on good sounding but misleading technical information to do the old dazzle with BS approach.

Your claims are not facts. Facts would be a controlled experimental study. Hand waving only works in the movies. No point to carry this on. I did some research and I see where you can do that to incredible lengths as you have on other Forums.

You will just have to explain to the hand.
Yep! I am like a dog with a bone. I don't give up when I know I am right.
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-14-2016, 06:28 PM
cujet's Avatar
cujet cujet is online now
I give up
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Jupiter, FL
Posts: 6,333
Thanks: 6,931
Thanked 18,506 Times in 4,814 Posts
Default

As an engineer, I have a difficult time socially. Most of it stems from the fact that people do not understand what I say. I'm reasonably articulate, kind and considerate. However, the vast majority of people really don't understand basic science. Not to mention something as simple as a pump with a regulating valve, driven by a continuous duty motor.

A very large number of people really do think they understand why things work. Nothing could be further from the truth.

In fact, most humans confuse social smarts and scientific prowess. They can, and will, argue a point Ad Infinitum, while completely misunderstanding the most basic of technical concepts.

Any discussion about bearing life, without discussing MTBF, design lifespan, operating conditions, temperature swings, seal failure, moisture intrusion and lubrication failure, is incomplete. Maybe even including the mistaken assumption that a bearing has a finite number of revolutions before failure. Nothing could be further from the truth.

A common example of motor anti-friction (ball) bearing failure has to do with poor design. An induction motor is chock-a-block full of a rotating magnetic field. Sometimes a small current is induced between the case and rotor, causing electrical arcing and micro-welding in the ball and roller bearings. Those bearings have won't last as long as they should, when installed in a poorly designed motor.

But, we'd be happy to blame something else for the premature failure, without ever addressing the real problem.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to cujet For This Useful Post:
Old 07-14-2016, 10:40 PM
MattB4's Avatar
MattB4 MattB4 is offline
Don't get me started
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 15,672
Thanks: 21,921
Thanked 30,375 Times in 10,648 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cujet View Post
As an engineer, I have a difficult time socially. Most of it stems from the fact that people do not understand what I say. I'm reasonably articulate, kind and considerate. However, the vast majority of people really don't understand basic science. ...
I have found that it is always more difficult to deal with people that are reasonably smart and do understand some basics. The inventor of this valve is of this camp. He knows enough to concoct what seems like a valid scientific explanation but all the time knowing it is being used to confuse those that does not have his level of intelligence. The key is to understand to look for contradictions and claims that can not be proven but rely on popular ideas.

Incidentally, I can buy the notion of currents being introduced into a motors casing and possible bearing failure. How often that might occur would require fairly intensive research however before you could claim it was actually happening. To go from there and create a device that you were selling to prevent premature bearing failure due to stray currents would be analogous to the claim of CSV inventor in reference to prolonged pump life from using his device.

To put it simply, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-14-2016, 11:40 PM
6556 6556 is offline
human
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 4,430
Thanks: 734
Thanked 4,355 Times in 2,090 Posts
Default

Oh boy! Look at all the fun I missed!

Since it was I (I'm pretty sure) brought up "bearing life" in jet water pumps let me.. add my 2 cents.

I've stated in many other threads that we have a "wet basement". For those who haven't seen those posts I'll give a quick version. Our basement is "always" wet. it goes from really damp.. to wet ... to very wet... to "Lake Basement".

Our "shallow well jet pump" Over the last 20 years or so I think I've replaced it about 5 times. Each time I replaced it because (being in our basement) it simply was "screeching" to loud.

The pump still pumped.
The pump wasn't leaking.
The pressure switch was still working.

I'm sure that "due to the environment" and my low tolerance to "high pitched noise" pump life seen here is so short.

Also, these are (at about $300.00) relatively cheap. (Red Lion 3/4hp)


Without a doubt, these pumps could be made with better bearings/seals and last much longer.

I am not convinced that it's the frequency of cycles or some sort of an electrolysis action.

I suspect that it's the failure of the seal and drying out / breakdown of the grease, main culprit time and a damp environment.

The motors on these pumps have high rpm and small shaft size means those balls in those bearings are very small, which means they have to spin pretty fast.

And speaking of pump failures.. every automotive water pump I replaced failed due to bearings/seals. Guess they use cheap bearings too.


Just had a thought, I wonder if one of those magical impellers was used in an automotive water pump.. someone could make a lot of money!


Getting back on subject, while I'm sure restricting water flow could cause the motor to consume less power, it's hard for me to believe that this valve can drop start up current to 1 amp. The term "start up" current normally implies that this is the "peak current" and current is expected to drop to it's "normal run" value.

If the start up current has dropped to 1 amp, what is now the normal running amperage?
Quick reply to this message
Reply

Bookmarks



Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Survivalist Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Gender
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright © Kevin Felts 2006 - 2015,
Green theme by http://www.themesbydesign.net