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Old 10-27-2015, 01:05 PM
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Default Well pump, expansion tank and Cycle Stop Valve "review"



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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jANyiSSWD9U

The video shows the operation starting at the 4 minute mark. Check it out.


My Florida home has a shallow well, 2HP, 3 stage, high pressure water pump and good sized expansion tank. Even so, the pump would cycle all the time during showers and during moderate water use.

I learned about "Cycle Stop Valves" and installed one.

Analogy: It throttles the water pump, in much the same way an automobile engine is throttled. Rather than drive down the road by full power/coast/full power/coast cycles. It throttles the output and maintains a set, specified, pressure. In my case, 87PSI.

This prevents the pump from constantly cycling on/off/on/off during modest water use. During any water use, from a single faucet, to all six shower heads, pressure is maintained and the pump remains on.

Interestingly, the electrical draw is much lower, with low flow rates. Electrical draw goes from 10 A, down to 3.5 A at low flow. While I make no claims of energy savings, running the pump at low loads is not consuming as much as during high flow.

A 2HP, high pressure well pump is hard on "pump switches" and fries the contacts quickly. As most switches are for smaller pumps. So this is an interesting solution.

Better yet, my water pressure remains perfectly constant without the constant cycling during a shower. I'm very happy with it. I hope that the reduced flow rate drags up less sand from my well too. Time will tell.

I hope it lasts. They are supposed to be trouble free.

http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/index2.html

This is the one I purchased:

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Old 10-27-2015, 01:39 PM
roseman roseman is offline
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Sounds like your tank is not functioning properly. If the membrane in a bladder type storage tank fails, the tank fills with water and can no longer build pressure to distribute water to your system when required without continually cycling on and off.
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Old 10-27-2015, 02:42 PM
6556 6556 is offline
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First of all, I agree that it sounds like your pressure/expansion tank isn't working properly. I also have a shallow well pump with a very old (and small) tank and my well pump does not cycle on/off/on/off.

I watched the animation video for several minutes and admit I'm confused by it.

Both examples show "Back Pressure" and if I stop the animation (shut off water) with the water pressure at 40psi (just before pump cycles on) the CSV example shows 60psi while the example without the CSV shows 30psi

On the example WITHOUT the CSV it clearly shows that while water is flowing the house water pressure varies between 40 and 60 pounds yet it shows that the flow rate remains constant?

The CSV, it adjusts flow by simply closing/opening a gate in the valve?

You said "Electrical draw goes from 10 A, down to 3.5 A at low flow" did you measure this current? A 2hp pump/motor should draw about 12.4amps. (a 120v pump) *with much higher initial surge current).
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Old 10-27-2015, 03:41 PM
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I have a CSV on my well as well. They are the best thing one can do for a well pump (IMHO)
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Old 10-27-2015, 05:04 PM
levsmith levsmith is offline
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Granted I've never heard of these devices let alone used one, I can't comment on them. But it does sound like either your pressure tank or pressure switch is not functioning right. It should not be cycling constantly if you have a 20psi range on your pressure switch, which is the normal range, especially with a good size pressure tank. If I remember correctly, my little 20 gallon pressure tank has something like a 5 gallon drawdown, meaning at full pressure I can use 5 gallons before the pump kicks on again.

It may be worth checking your empty tank psi to give you an idea. Shut your pump off and open a faucet until you run out of water and then check the tank psi with a tire pressure gauge. It should be about 2 psi less than what your cut in pressure is on your pressure switch. Ex. Pressure switch is 40cut in, 60 cut out, the pressure in your pressure tank should be 38 when empty.

Also 2hp seems very big for a shallow well. How deep is your well? Around here the wells don't get much deeper than 100ft and 3/4hp is plenty fine for that for residential use.
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Old 10-27-2015, 05:27 PM
6556 6556 is offline
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I installed a "on demand/tankless" water heater several years ago. My biggest complaint about it is that it's response time "at times" can be very slow.

This I believe is caused by it's built in safeties that monitor input (water) pressure and temp.

I suspect that a CSV would/could be a fix to this issue.



despite the slow response of the tankless water heater... it's the only way to go!

ALSO.. I agree, a 2hp shallow well pump sound very large. We have a 3/4hp shallow well pump, I have no idea how deep our well is.
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Old 10-27-2015, 05:29 PM
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I went to the web site and I'm not sure how it works either, but if my well pump started drawing 3 amps instead of the usual 10 amps, I would be worried. Something doesn't sound right. I thought well pumps simply pumped at a constant rate. It takes a certain amount of power to pump at that rate.

What is the point of pumping less water anyhow?
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Old 10-27-2015, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roseman View Post
Sounds like your tank is not functioning properly. If the membrane in a bladder type storage tank fails, the tank fills with water and can no longer build pressure to distribute water to your system when required without continually cycling on and off.
Thanks for your concern. However, as an engineer, I do understand exactly how my expansion tank works, how many gallons it produces each "draw" and how to set the pressure.


I also clearly understand how to determine if the pressure tank is operating properly.

As you may guess, when running 6 showerheads in a 2 person shower, it's easy to draw down the 12 available gallons rather rapidly from my 60 gallon well-mate tank.

And, before you say, "you should have more than 12 gallons draw down". That's not so at my 100PSI shut off point. The higher the water (and air pressure) the fewer gallons "DRAW" that are available.

Also, as you might expect, I don't set the pump switch for a wide spread of pressure. I hate pressure swings.

As far as the amp draw, I have a "clamp" over type AC ammeter, that works only on a single wire. Because the CSV throttles the pump the amp draw may be slightly lower.

Note: a CSV is a restriction and will reduce max working pressure by about 5-7 PSI (not max fill pressure to the tank though) .
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Old 10-27-2015, 05:36 PM
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How does it "throttle the output" of the pump?

It sounds like you are simply bypassing the pressure tank.
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Old 10-27-2015, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by sarco2000 View Post
I went to the web site and I'm not sure how it works either, but if my well pump started drawing 3 amps instead of the usual 10 amps, I would be worried. Something doesn't sound right. I thought well pumps simply pumped at a constant rate. It takes a certain amount of power to pump at that rate.

What is the point of pumping less water anyhow?
The point is to stop the pump from cycling on/off. But instead to throttle it. My analogy above is fairly accurate.

As far as electrical load, water pumps (and many air pumps) draw less current when they are throttled. As they are doing less work. You can demonstrate this by blocking a fan/blower, such as a vacuum cleaner. It speeds up as the loads decrease. And the amp draw decreases. You have "throttled" it.
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Old 10-27-2015, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by sarco2000 View Post
How does it "throttle the output" of the pump?

It sounds like you are simply bypassing the pressure tank.
It throttles the pump output by moving an internal valve towards the closed position.

The output of the CSV is ported to the pressure tank, and then to the house.

The reason the pump does not shut off, is that the pressure "pick up point" for the switch is downstream of the CSV.

By the way, I am very pleased with the result!!!!
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Old 10-27-2015, 05:46 PM
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ALSO.. I agree, a 2hp shallow well pump sound very large. We have a 3/4hp shallow well pump, I have no idea how deep our well is.
Yes, we had a 1.5HP 2 stage pump and it was insufficient when running 6 shower heads. Hence the 2 HP Goulds pump. An HSJ20N pump, which really works well.

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Old 10-27-2015, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by cujet View Post
The point is to stop the pump from cycling on/off. But instead to throttle it. My analogy above is fairly accurate.

...
I'm sorry but maybe I'm dense because the analogy makes no sense to me. The speed of a car is controlled by how much fuel is injected into the cylinders. I'm having trouble seeing how this relates to starting and stopping a well pump, unless you are controlling how much electrical power is supplied to the pump, and that doesn't make sense either, because it needs a constant voltage.

I'm guessing that you are "throttling" the pump by restricting its output, which is not like an automobile at all.

While I appreciate your thread, I don't think the operation of the device was explained very well.

Edit:

We posted at the same time!
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Old 10-27-2015, 06:10 PM
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OK since I've demo's the Cycle Stop Valve and have been banned from several forums by Cary Austin (CSV vice president) for explaining how the CSV works (Terri Love and others) and does not need to be used on anything other than an agricultural well, here's the low down.

1. Yes it does use less current, but it uses twice the amount of power to pump the same amount of water, it runs all the time.

2. It is a simple pressure control valve with a notch cut into the valve plate, so it leaks and continues to provide flow. If the pressure goes down the valve opens more to allow more flow, when it reaches the set point it slows down but the pump continues to run.

3. It causes your pump to build up pressures that are off of the pump providers spec sheets, good/bad you decide.

4. It can build up pressures that exceed the max pressure of your poly drop pipe.

5. In my testing my power usage went up from $10.00/month to $20.00/month, I had it on 2 1/3 hp pumps in parallel off of a storage tank.

Not a lot of power increase, I wasn't worried about my drop pipe since it was not in the equation. But when SHTF you want all the power you can conserve.

Now the claim is it saves your bladder tank from needing to be replaced as often, in my case I was paying $120.00 more in electric/year, 5 years of use would have been more than enough to buy a new tank.

Your milage may vary.

Rancher
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Old 10-27-2015, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by azrancher View Post

1. Yes it does use less current, but it uses twice the amount of power to pump the same amount of water, it runs all the time.

2. It is a simple pressure control valve with a notch cut into the valve plate,

3. It causes your pump to build up pressures that are off of the pump providers spec sheets, good/bad you decide.

4. It can build up pressures that exceed the max pressure of your poly drop pipe.
1) It does not run all the time. Only when drawing more than 1 GPM. And only after the pressure tank depletes to the cut-on pressure.

2) In my case, there is no notch in the valve. It's simply prevented from fully closing to the shut off position.

3) I put a gauge directly on the pump. It operates at 105. Well within the normal operating range for this (3 stage) jet pump on a shallow well. And well within this pump's specifications.

4) The CSV is directly on the pump via a 2 inch stub of iron pipe. No problems there. Also, 1 inch schedule 40 is good for 270 PSI, with a burst pressure of 1440, So no risk there. The pump is incapable of such pressures.

The bottom line is that it works well in my application.
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Old 10-27-2015, 09:42 PM
6556 6556 is offline
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Originally Posted by cujet View Post
Thanks for your concern. However, as an engineer, I do understand exactly how my expansion tank works, how many gallons it produces each "draw" and how to set the pressure.


I also clearly understand how to determine if the pressure tank is operating properly.

As you may guess, when running 6 showerheads in a 2 person shower, it's easy to draw down the 12 available gallons rather rapidly from my 60 gallon well-mate tank.

And, before you say, "you should have more than 12 gallons draw down". That's not so at my 100PSI shut off point. The higher the water (and air pressure) the fewer gallons "DRAW" that are available.

Also, as you might expect, I don't set the pump switch for a wide spread of pressure. I hate pressure swings.

As far as the amp draw, I have a "clamp" over type AC ammeter, that works only on a single wire. Because the CSV throttles the pump the amp draw may be slightly lower.

Note: a CSV is a restriction and will reduce max working pressure by about 5-7 PSI (not max fill pressure to the tank though) .


Their web site/animation is misleading. Both examples (with and without the CSV) show the same flow rate (gallons pumped/min). In reality, given the same set up the flow meter (without CSV's added restrictions) should read higher.


There's about 746watts per horsepower. So a 2 hp motor should draw about 2x746=1,492watts) Amps are W/volts or 1492/120= 12.43amps.

Your current drop from 10amps to 3.5, ... electric horse power is 1200watts/1.6hp and drops to 120x3.5= 420watts or about 1/2hp. If the pump/motor efficiency is linear (gallons pumped per minute) to electric power consumed (in theory) the CSV system, using only 1/4 the electric power will pump 1 fourth the possible volume.

Also, our expansion tank has been "on line" for better than 20years.



It's obvious that it's pumping significantly less water(gallons) per minute.


Blocking the intake of a blower/pump causes the pump to pick up speed while blocking the output normally causes an increase in pressure.

With the CSV does the pump's speed/rpm's increase? and if so, shouldn't one expect premature bearing wear?
And I would think that with the pump running MUCH MORE I'd expect it's life expectancy to drop significantly.
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Old 10-27-2015, 09:46 PM
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While I appreciate your thread, I don't think the operation of the device was explained very well.
Sorry 'bout that. I'm no "english" major. I did try.
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Old 10-27-2015, 09:51 PM
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It's obvious that it's pumping significantly less water(gallons) per minute.
"slightly less" gallons per minute at max flow. The valve is indeed a minor restriction.

Yes, the flow through the pump is now exactly the use rate, at any flow rate over 1GPM. Such as a faucet or hose.

And, you are correct, with the valve in place, the ultimate output of the system is slightly less. This matters not, as my 6 showerheads consume just so much water. My 2HP pump is sufficient for these. The CSV's restriction is minor in nature, and the fact that the pump never shuts off during a shower means my overall experience is better, more steady, and with great 87 PSI water pressure.

It may not be a good solution for others, with smaller pumps and lower demand. But for me, it's really good.
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Old 10-27-2015, 10:20 PM
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"slightly less" gallons per minute at max flow. The valve is indeed a minor restriction.

Your 2 horsepower pump is consuming less power than a 1/2hp pump. I would think that at this power it's pumping significantly less water

Yes, the flow through the pump is now exactly the use rate, at any flow rate over 1GPM. Such as a faucet or hose.

What is "use rate" "?

And, you are correct, with the valve in place, the ultimate output of the system is slightly less. This matters not, as my 6 showerheads consume just so much water. My 2HP pump is sufficient for these. The CSV's restriction is minor in nature, and the fact that the pump never shuts off during a shower means my overall experience is better, more steady, and with great 87 PSI water pressure.


87PSI sounds .. painful! 87PSI but how many gallons per minute? Me, myself.. I'd take volume over pressure.


It may not be a good solution for others, with smaller pumps and lower demand. But for me, it's really good.


I could see the CSV helping with maintaining a constant "set" water temperature. Some might find this reason enough to install one.
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Old 10-27-2015, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cujet View Post
1) It does not run all the time. Only when drawing more than 1 GPM. And only after the pressure tank depletes to the cut-on pressure.
Yes you are correct, it runs a lot...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cujet View Post
2) In my case, there is no notch in the valve. It's simply prevented from fully closing to the shut off position.
Sorry that is the patent, there is a notch in the valve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cujet View Post
3) I put a gauge directly on the pump. It operates at 105. Well within the normal operating range for this (3 stage) jet pump on a shallow well. And well within this pump's specifications.
Is it normal to have a pump go up to 105psi?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cujet View Post
4) The CSV is directly on the pump via a 2 inch stub of iron pipe. No problems there. Also, 1 inch schedule 40 is good for 270 PSI, with a burst pressure of 1440, So no risk there. The pump is incapable of such pressures.
You are good to go there.

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Originally Posted by cujet View Post
The bottom line is that it works well in my application.
Yes except that you are using a lot more energy than you should be to pump water.

Rancher
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