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Old 01-02-2012, 10:16 AM
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Interesting and it seems to explain something I have noticed when watching film of our modern troops in combat situations. The soldiers (marines, etc.) aim their guns. Now that may seem to be a duh but it was not always the case if you look at combat film from earlier wars and conflicts. ~snip~
Matt,

Infantry have always been trained to aim. There are various news films of soldiers who seemed not to be aiming. There may or may not have been a specific purpose from whatever they were doing, but during basic and AIT they were trained to aim. Some troops, periodically, in the Army were taught a method they referred to as "Quick Kill", which from the observer, would appear to be shooting from the hip. This was after they learned to aim, as a supplement skill.

Best Regards......Eagle Six
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Old 01-02-2012, 10:43 AM
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Matt,

Infantry have always been trained to aim. There are various news films of soldiers who seemed not to be aiming. There may or may not have been a specific purpose from whatever they were doing, but during basic and AIT they were trained to aim. Some troops, periodically, in the Army were taught a method they referred to as "Quick Kill", which from the observer, would appear to be shooting from the hip. This was after they learned to aim, as a supplement skill.

Best Regards......Eagle Six
Could be, but I am fairly good at observation and it just appears to me that film of our soldiers from Afghanistan and Iraq show a much higher degree of concentration on target. This is regardless of shooting position of the gun they have. I am not great typist so it is difficult to convey the difference in my post that I see of the modern combat troops compared to older combat troops from films from earlier wars. It would be interesting if there was any statistics of shots fired to disabled/killed vs past conflicts.

Note: I am not trying to pick on older combat folks.

ETA: Sorry for taking this Thread Off-Topic Eagle Six.

Last edited by MattB4; 01-02-2012 at 11:06 AM.. Reason: Realized that I was off topic.
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Old 01-02-2012, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by MattB4 View Post
Could be, but I am fairly good at observation and it just appears to me that film of our soldiers from Afghanistan and Iraq show a much higher degree of concentration on target. This is regardless of shooting position of the gun they have. I am not great typist so it is difficult to convey the difference in my post that I see of the modern combat troops compared to older combat troops from films from earlier wars. It would be interesting if there was any statistics of shots fired to disabled/killed vs past conflicts.

Note: I am not trying to pick on older combat folks.
Hi Matt,

I didn't take it as you picking on anyone, young or old. I was simply pointing out what some new footage may have mislead your opinion. Your opinion of course, is yours, and I respect that. Mine is based on the study, as well as the participation in a past war. If we consider the sighting systems on the rifles deployed currently against those used during previous wars, as applied to the difference in terrain from one theater to the other, we can understand some differencing in application.

There is no doubt, the infantry in today's services are far better trained and far better equipped in comparison to past wars/services. There are those visual documents of both poor and good marksmanship from current and past (50 years) battles. My point was only that all infantry have been trained to aim their guns.....whether they do it in front of a news camera or not, is easily seen during the news footage.

As a point, just the other day I viewed a home video taken inside a Bradley (Afgan/Iraq) when the turret gunner was almost hit, then he sprayed with his M4, one handed, no sights, in just about every direction except the direction the round had to have come from! It was kind of funny, and I can understand his immediate reaction. I'm sure he wasn't trained to respond in that fashion, and I'm sure he composed himself afterword, but it wasn't a good representation of our modern warrior.

As another point, I commend your observation. Although I don't fully agree, I understand why you came to that conclusion. Proves you are paying attention to detail.....a good trait for those who are always learning.

Best Regards......Eagle Six
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Old 01-02-2012, 11:34 AM
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~snip~

ETA: Sorry for taking this Thread Off-Topic Eagle Six.
No problem, I think you have a point from your observations and it would apply to the discussion. Although I would like to take it to a finer degree....

During a part of our training, between firing string, as I go down the line and ask students, at the moment your gun goes off, what do you see? I get a lot of different answers. Most are correct, although most are very short answers. During another pause, I ask each student if they are focusing on their front sight? The answer is always, YES! I then ask then what do they see when focusing on the front sight? Very few have a good descriptive answer. Of course, after the range lecture of focus, concentration, and detail.....pertaining to the front sight, some students can answer with several paragraphs describing their front sight. Using that new found skill to concentrate, focus, and pay attention to detail, their marksmanship improves by leap and bounds.

Later, when I ask the same question, "at the moment your gun goes off, what do you see", I get a long list description of that front sight!!

Depending on the type of gun, the type of combat, the type of terrain, the dynamics of the fight.....we may be more effective using traditional sighted fire -vs- alternative sighted fire, or, we may not. But regardless, we are going to be more effective if we learn to aim our guns, using traditional methods of aligning our sights on target, before we learn other alternative sighting methods.

So, I think your observation is important to the topic and Thank You for bringing it up for discussion.

Best Regards.......Eagle Six
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Old 01-02-2012, 11:50 AM
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Matt,
We typically run several relays of shooters so that the shooters waiting to shoot can watch the ones actually shooting.

The only time we typically film anything would be inside of a shoot house so for several reasons.

1. To critique form and tactics
2. As an aid in the classroom setting for newer shooters
3. In case of an injury,there will be an investigation and it never hurts to have the incident on film, from an instructors point of view, as this would show that the tactics were sound and that the shooters involved in the incident were careless or something.

And to answer your post about modern infantry aiming their weapons in a fight.. We are always taught that you can't hurt 'em if you don't hit 'em.

Also I think that modern infantrymen actually are more motivated to actually pull the trigger and see good results (i.e. dead bad guys) for several reasons and these are just from what I have seen and by no means are all inclusive. These are not in any specific order
1. Because they have seen first hand a buddy get hit and want some payback
2. They don't want to see a buddy get hit and want to eliminate the threat
3. They want to be the first kid on their block to have a confirmed kill (to quote the movie FMJ)
4. A small portion of them enjoy it.
5.Because they are patriots and want to do what they feel is their job.
6. Occupational pride. Who wants to be that infantryman who doesn't want to locate, close with and destroy the enemy by fire and manuever and repell the enemies assault by fire and close combat? That is the mission of the Marine Corps rifle squad.

I think media plays a big part in this as well. Movies and video games have made it cool to kill people, the Infantry is the only job in the military where you get to do this up close and personal and typically not go to jail for it.

From my experience in the Marine Corps Infantry (6 almost 7 years), We are some of the most twisted people that you may ever meet in combat, however, that is what it takes most of the time to be able to do what we do and still come back alive with parts of our humanity intact. I love my wife and family to death but haven't blinked twice about putting 2 to the chest and 1 in the head of a bad guy bent on doing me or mine harm.

TRAINING TRAINING TRAINING!! Practice makes Permanent. there is no such thing as muscle memory, it is simply Habit of Action!

Sorry to hijack your thread Eagle Six
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Old 01-02-2012, 12:52 PM
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~snip~Sorry to hijack your thread Eagle Six
It's all good stuff, Thanks.....we'll get it back online, but your experience and wisdom will help those who haven't any military training, or combat time, understand those that have, and how that may effect the post they make.

Keep'em coming....

Best Regards......Eagle Six
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Old 01-02-2012, 04:28 PM
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Practice makes Permanent. there is no such thing as muscle memory, it is simply Habit of Action!
I've been taking this to heart lately and have been heading to the range as often as I can
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Old 01-02-2012, 04:35 PM
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Once a shooter masters the fundamentals of marksmanship then they will be able to apply them to any platform you select.

Optics and accessories distract new shooters and end up being a crutch, I always recommend starting with iron sights and learning to really shoot before adding gizmos.
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Old 01-05-2012, 03:24 PM
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Default Charts and Records! Part 1

If you are just learning the art of the rifle, charts and records may help you progress and better understand the application of your rifle system. Some of the charts I use are trajectory charts, which plot a bullets path from muzzle to a given distance.

Most of the trajectory charts I make run from muzzle to 1,200 yards, in 25 yard increments. Depending on some variables such as the caliber, bullet type, muzzle velocity, temperature, altitude, humidity, and atmospheric pressure, zero distance, and line of sight above line of bore....the bullet drop and bullet path can be determined with some mathematics.

I use a computer program for the calculations. The trajectory chart it produces is only as accurate as the data you feed in about the variables. And, to my experience, regardless of the program or math.....the trajectory chart produced is a close estimate, but not necessarily perfect. With the trajectory chart from a program, you are making a guess as to the flight path of your bullet, but it is what I refer to as an educated guess......again, it will be close, but not perfect.

Once I have the trajectory chart printed it gives me a starting point to develop an actual shooters version, after I get done in the field testing the forecast results of the chart to the actual results of shooting.

The trajectory chart will provide me with the estimated bullet path through various distances plotted on the chart. The farther the bullet travels the more it will fall toward earth and the higher I will have to aim to get it to travel further before crashing to earth. The trajectory chart gives me a pretty close idea of how high I need to hold above the target to get the bullet to the point-of-impact (POI) I desire, the target.

As I actually shoot the incremental distances, I can make minor adjustments to the chart from actual shooting......it often gets old, but it also give me an opportunity to work of various skills, so it's all good training.

Once I have actually fired the distances, obtained the actual results, I have a dependable record of that gun, ammo, and environmental conditions which I can use in the future. That is, within the accuracy capability of my rifle system (rifle/sight/ammunition), within the accuracy capability of my shooting skills, I can now make a first shot/first hit on a target at just about any distance within the range of my trajectory chart. That's the theory!

Here is the hitch.....change any of the variables, and the chart, whether computer made or made on actual results, will change the end results!! If the variables are changed, then using that chart may create an error great enough to put our POI off target. Small changes in the variables will normally make only small changes in the results. Changing some of the variables will have more impact on the results than changing other variables. Large changes will have greater changes in the results regardless of the variables changed, as well as the results are magnified with greater distances.

Temperature is one of those variables which has a larger impact than some others. Shooting the same rifle system, ammo and all other variables are the same, the POI is going to be greatly effected by a large temperature change. Large ambient temperature shifts can effect many shooters in many location. For example in my area, it is not uncommon to be test shooting in 112* highs and a few months later be shooting in 35* morning lows. A 77* temperature shift may have a huge effect on the bullet path.

Now don't take that statement to the bank just yet, because there are examples of temperature changes having little effect of some type ammo. But for now, lets put that aside. Also, seldom does temperature change without some of the other variables changing to some degree, but we are using the temperature change just as a tool for now to study how these variables will change the bullet path and change the results we get when computing or actually in the field testing and/or using the results.

Theoretically, the higher the temperature, the faster the bullet will exit the muzzle (muzzle velocity in FPS - feet per second). The faster the bullet travels, the farther it will go before gravity pulls it to earth. That means the trajectory arc, path of the bullet, will be more shallow than the same bullet traveling slower. The shallow arc is going to require less sight adjustment to achieve a POI.

If you were shooting a fox/coyote at 600 yards, using a bullet path adjustment from a chart developed at 35*, when the actual temperature is now 112* could result in enough POI difference that you would miss the target completely. Your bullet is going faster at 112*, it has less bullet drop, the bullet is going to be more shallow, and your are probably going to shoot over the target.

On the other hand if we are hunting that fox in the same environmental conditions as we developed the chart, using the same rifle system and can get a good solid sight hold on target, and we make our adjustments from our chart, we are going to get a first shot/first hit.

Now, don't take any of this as gospel, without reading the following parts!!

Best Regards......Eagle Six
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Old 01-05-2012, 05:06 PM
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Default Charts and Records! Part 2

This is a sample trajectory chart for a 308.....



The chart list the bullet travel data from muzzle to 1,000 yards in increments of 50 yards. The bullet is a Sierra 168 grain Match King. It is the bullet typically used in Federal Gold Medal Match 308 ammunition. Here are some of the variables:

Ballistic Coeffecient = .462
Muzzle velocity = 2697 FPS
Altitude = 1,640 feet ASL
Humidity = 8.5%
Barometer Pressure = 30.04 in/Hg
Ambient temperature = 94.8* F
Scope Height = 1.8 inches
Wind = 10 MPH at 3 O'clock

This chart provides for some really important information and some rather not important information.

The left hand column (Range) is important, as it gives us reference to the distance (range) for the corresponding data.

The sixth column (Bullet Path) is important as it give us the estimated bullet path. And, just as important, it gives us the distance the rifle must be zeroed for to use this data (go down the Bullet Path column until you see the 0.0 and go left to the first column and it aligns with the 100 yard distance). Most important is the amount we need to adjust our sight elevation above our rifle zero (in inches) to compensate for the bullet drop at any given distance. This rifle has a 100 yard zero, and we need to hold 57 inches (57.04") high to hit a 500 yard target.....or adjust our sight 57" higher than our zero.

The seventh column is important information we can use to compensate for any bullet drift left/right from the wind, if any (almost always is!).

The Eight column may be important if our target is moving or may move, as it gives us the bullet "time in flight" to the target and with this information and knowing or estimating the speed of the moving target we can calculate an estimate to allow for the movement.

Columns 2,3,4, and 5 are not so important, but gives relative information for which the calculations are based and can be used for other considerations.

The following chart is part of a trajectory chart showing the bullet path on a 100*F day:

This rifle is zeroed for 200 yards. At 600 yards it tells us to expect the bullet to drop 74.53 inches.

The following chart is part of a trajectory chart showing the bullet path on a 40*F day:

The rifle is still zeroed for 200 yards and at 600 yards we should expect the bullet to drop 77.77 inches. That's about 3.25 inches.

Some would say, that's not much difference and I would agree if I were shooting a fox size target at 100 yards, but at 600 yards, three inches can easily makes the difference between a clean kill and a bad hit, possibly a clean miss! Regardless if you would attempt to shoot a fox at 600 yards or not, the example is for illustration purposes.

Variables in our environment, which we cannot control, can and most likely will, change our expected results if we don't allow for those changes.

Preparing one trajectory chart will help new shooters better understand the adjustments needed to obtain a better hit. Preparing additional charts under different conditions (say one during the summer heat and one during the winter cold) will give us even more information. Get crazy like me and produce reams of charts and you have even more information and have something close to almost any condition you may face on any given day!!

I like to learn from charts, but I don't need all that data in the field. I may take a couple charts into the field today knowing what to expect from the weather and field conditions. I also condense the trajectory chart information onto another chart we refer to as a "Come-Up" chart or table, which is a small condensed version of the trajectory chart.

You could carry a laptop to the field or range with your favorite trajectory calculator program, carry a handheld calculator with a trajectory app, connect to the internet with your fancy cell phone, wear a 5.11 watch with the trajectory program, or any number of other means.....you could actually memorize the data you will need which is even better (maybe), and for those math wiz amongst us, well they can just run the formulas in their heads!

The trajectory calculator provides use with some of the science part. We have to remember the rule of the computer/calculator, "garbage in/garbage out". The more accurate the variables we feed the calculator, the more dependable the results will be it returns to us. Sometimes we have some other science to provide us with the variable information, sometimes we need to rely or our art to estimate!

Part 3 is the "Come-Up" chart.....

Best Regards......Eagle Six

(Readers.....make sure you read gkmiami (post #51) correction to this post...good stuff)

Last edited by Eagle Six; 01-06-2012 at 10:38 AM.. Reason: ..edited to add the last line!
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Old 01-06-2012, 12:20 AM
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Theoretically, the higher the temperature, the faster the bullet will exit the muzzle (muzzle velocity in FPS - feet per second). The faster the bullet travels, the farther it will go before gravity pulls it to earth. That means the trajectory arc, path of the bullet, will be more shallow than the same bullet traveling slower. The shallow arc is going to require less sight adjustment to achieve a POI.

If you were shooting a fox/coyote at 600 yards, using a bullet path adjustment from a chart developed at 35*, when the actual temperature is now 112* could result in enough POI difference that you would miss the target completely. Your bullet is going faster at 112*, it has less bullet drop, the bullet is going to be more shallow, and your are probably going to shoot over the target.
Eagle Six,

I must respectfully interject a correction in your analysis.

All other things being equal, the reason a bullet hits higher given a higher ambient temperature is not at all due to a higher muzzle velocity. Your charts in your next post even show identical muzzle velocities. The reason is due to warmer air being less dense resulting in less drag on the bullet. It's not that the projectile starts out faster, it's that it doesn't slow down as fast in the warmer temps.

This only shows up with any significance at the longer ranges. As your two charts show even at 400 yards the difference is only about 1" but once you get to 600 and beyond it becomes more dramatic.

The only way your muzzle velocity will increase in the higher temperatures is first if you use powder that is temperature sensitive. Then the ammo loaded with that powder must be allowed to get hot by perhaps setting in the sun for a while or even cooking inside the chamber too long; whatever. This alone can lead to higher pressures and slight velocity increases. This is why almost all long range competition shooters use powders such as Hodgdon's Varget which has a very wide range of temperature insensitivity, within which the pressure doesn't vary much at all.

Altitude affects trajectory for the same reasons. All other things being equal, when you go from sea level to 6,000' that same bullet/velocity combination will hit about 6" higher at 600 yards (58" at 1,000). All because of air density.

For those of you who are familiar with air densities and aircraft you are probably aware that a craft's manifest is very carefully scrutinized based on temperature and altitude. Both are very important players in whether a heavily laden craft can take off safely (helicopters especially). Their effects on projectiles use the same science.

gk
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Old 01-06-2012, 10:27 AM
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Eagle Six,

I must respectfully interject a correction in your analysis.

All other things being equal, the reason a bullet hits higher given a higher ambient temperature is not at all due to a higher muzzle velocity.~snip~
I absolute agree. That's why the conversation. We can all participate, but how much do you feed at anyone time. I get long winded enough, so Thank You for making this valid point. Your point about the chart is also correct, I should have pulled the correct muzzle velocity for comparison.



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The only way your muzzle velocity will increase in the higher temperatures is first if you use powder that is temperature sensitive. Then the ammo loaded with that powder must be allowed to get hot by perhaps setting in the sun for a while or even cooking inside the chamber too long; whatever. This alone can lead to higher pressures and slight velocity increases. This is why almost all long range competition shooters use powders such as Hodgdon's Varget which has a very wide range of temperature insensitivity, within which the pressure doesn't vary much at all.
I agree, and that is exactly the point. I was pointing out the differences and not the solution to the differences. If you have the ability to load your choice of powder, Varget is one choice, I use it and like what I get. We still have powders which are sensitive to temperature swings as well as many factory loads.

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Originally Posted by gkmiami View Post
Altitude affects trajectory for the same reasons. All other things being equal, when you go from sea level to 6,000' that same bullet/velocity combination will hit about 6" higher at 600 yards (58" at 1,000). All because of air density.

For those of you who are familiar with air densities and aircraft you are probably aware that a craft's manifest is very carefully scrutinized based on temperature and altitude. Both are very important players in whether a heavily laden craft can take off safely (helicopters especially). Their effects on projectiles use the same science.

gk
That's good stuff, Thanks.......Eagle Six

...and Thanks for keeping me straight!!

Last edited by Eagle Six; 01-06-2012 at 10:35 AM.. Reason: edited to add the last line
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Old 01-15-2012, 05:28 PM
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Default Let's Make a Come-Up Chart

Before we get into the Come-Up Chart, let's review the Trajectory Chart. First, there are long range shooters who do not understand, nor have ever studied a trajectory chart, yet have developed their own process for calculating adjustment to hit targets at distance. I have know a couple over the years. However, understanding trajectory and having a working knowledge of basic exterior ballistic theory has proven to me, long range shooters become proficient sooner and easier if they study how bullets get from the muzzle to the target and how those element of bullet flight effect the end results.

Here are some general rules I use:

- All trajectory charts are not equal.

- Most trajectory calculators we differ at longer distance (say beyond 600-700 yards. some a lot others not much, just some!).

- Any trajectory calculator results, is only as good or accurate as the data we feed it for those calculations.

- For any given rifle and ammunition load, those elements most used to calculate bullet flight are Muzzle Velocity (fps), ambient temperature, altitude, barometric pressure, and humidity. And....from those...

- Temperature and altitude changes will effect trajectory more than the others.

- usually if you increase any, the bullet will retain more velocity down range, with the exception of barometric pressure.

- Changes of any environmental condition at short distances may have little to no practical effect in accuracy, depending on your target.

- Small changes in some, even at longer range, may not have a practical effect on the results, again depending on your target.

- The more you understand exterior ballistics, the more precise you make your calculations, in general.....the more ability you may have to make more precise longer distant shots.

- If you insist in studying exterior ballistics to the point of becoming a scientist, most likely you will have spent so much time studying part of the science of shooting and lack spending time building the art. You may have failed to develop the other skills in rifle shooting, which demand us to actually get out and shoot that rifle to learn!!! There is a balance....knowledge is power, but without the skill to apply the knowledge and the physical skills to manipulate gear.....we may become internet commandos!!!

=============================================

On to the Come-Up Chart. Why? It makes it easier to learn and develop good habits for better results! It provide a good crutch for those with short memories and/or multiple guns, calibers, loads.

The come-up chart can be really simplistic or really complicated. The format and design is easy for shooters to make or change and allows for a lot of choice. I like mine simple for two reasons.....1st I'm stupid so I like things that are simple. Theoretically, the simpler the chart is, the faster it is to use.......and I like fast.

Charts are a double edge sword so to speak. They can be so simple to use and small to carry, they don't provide enough incremental data to make adjustments for the precision your target may require.....in that case, simplicity will work against us. On the other hand if the charts are so complicated to use and take more time than our target will allow.....the chart becomes a hindrance to get on target and get that shot of. There is for most of us.....a happy medium and because we can use programs like WORD or Excel to customize our chart, with all the choices available, each individual shooters doesn't have too many excuses why they can't come up with something well suited for them and their type shooting.

Let's make one and much of this will become apparent....

A couple days ago I was testing some Hornady factory loads in a Remington 700 308. I will use that data to build a simple come-up chart. To produce the trajectory chart data required for the come-up chart I'm going to use the Sierra Infinity calculator. There are many free on-line calculators as well as free and pay for downloadable calculators. I'm using the Sierra because I have the license to publish the results. here is the chart....


This chart is based off the data for that day....Hornady 168 grain BTHP Match Ammunition, muzzle velocity of 2675 fps (average from my chronograph), altitude 5,600 Feet asl, ambient temperature 48*F (from my Kastrel 4000), barometric pressure of 30.07, and humidity of 32%.

There are two columns in the trajectory chart we need to use for the simple come-up chart....the 1st column listing the range to target, in yards and 50 yard increments......and the bullet path, based off the zero distance (100 yards) and the scope height (1.7 inches).

Here is the first pass I made at a chart....

Let's examine the two left columns and save the right (third), column for later. The 1st column list the distance to the target in yards in even increments of 100 yards. The next (middle) column list how many MOA I need to adjust my scope/sight elevation "up" from zero (100 yards), to enable a hit on a target at that distance. A common reference to this elevation adjustment, how many MOA do we have to come-up, to be on target......leads us to the common name of these type charts.

I've used simple division and rounding to arrive with the results I printed in this chart. The come-up results for the distance of 100 yards is "0". We have used the 100 yards distance to zero our rifle, so there is no necessity to change the elevation, it is already set for this distance.

However in every additional row on this chart, increasing the range/distance to target, we find a different value in the middle column "Come-Up". The value I put in this column is MOA (minute-of-angle). For our purpose, because the precise MOA is so dang close to 1 inch, I'm using that increment.....1 MOA, at 100 yards, equals 1 inch. You increase the distance and the amount of inches gets increaseed per MOA. And, the cool thing is, these increase are proportional making it really easy to calculate and deal with. At 100 yards, 1 MOA equals 1", at 200 yards, 1 MOA equals 2", at 300 yards 1 MOA equals 3".....400 yards = 4", 500 yards = 5", 600 = 6", 700 = 7", so on and so forth!

Let's go back to the trajectory chart. Scroll down to the 500 yard range row and then go across to the Bullet Path column, what is the results,,,,57.03 inches? If the trajectory chart is correct and the conditions are the same, and we don't adjust our sight elevation, we are going to hit 57.03" below the target! To hit it, we need to raise UP the elevation by 57.03", and that is the purpose of the Come-Up Chart, for us to reference and get the firing solution for this range.

I use MOA in my charts, because the increments on my scope are in MOA. Other scopes and sighting devices will most likely be in MOA or in inches (which we have already established, for all practical purposes, 1 inch equals 1 MOA at 100 yards and this works out great for most all sights. Interesting isn't it, the sight manufactures making it so easy!!).

We have already established at 500 yards, 1 MOA equals 5 inches, so we can divide 5 into 57.03" and arrive at 11.406. Probably the majority scopes elevation turret adjustments are in increments of inches and parts of inches. The most common probably being 1/4". Most scopes have little indentations for each of these settings, we refer to as clicks. Most of the scope I'm familiar with have both the inch settings as well as the 1/4" click setting engraved as a reference on the elevation turret or knob. It is relatively impossible to set a scope in between these 1/4" clicks, so a 1/4", or 1/4 MOA, becomes the finest fraction of adjustment we can make.

Let's round off the 11.406 to something we can actually use, to 11 and 1/2 MOA. That will be 57.50 inches, pretty close! For the practicl purposes of this chart, I don't think it is important we me to know the actual fraction to the thousandths of an inch!! 11.5 is good for me.

Rather than clutter up the chart with fractions, I like using decimals, so even numbers become .0, 1/4 becomes .25, 1/2 becomes .5, and 3/4 becomes .75 (we can even clean it up more, but we'll save that for later). Based on this standard (my standard, you may like it different), I have entered 11.5 in the Come-Up column for the 500 yard range row, representing how many MOA I need to come up to get on target.

Back to the trajectory chart. Come down to the 1,000 yard row, across to the bullet path column and we find out we will need to elevate 369.99 inches to get on target...wow! 1 MOA is worth 10 inches at 1,000 yards, so I do the simple division of 10 into 369.99 and get 36.999 MOA. I think we will all agree this can be rounded up to 37 MOA which would yield us 370 inches....close enough for me!

The third column I use for smaller distance/range increments. It is labeled at the top as "+50" meaning.....this is the MOA setting for the distance in the first column, plus 50 yards. Looking at the first row, 100 yards, for that distance the MOA elevation adjustment is "0", but in the third column which represents 100 yards plus 50 yards for a total of 150 yards, we need to raise the POA by only 3/4 MOA. At 200 yards we need to up the elevation by 1.75 MOA and at 250 yards by 3.25 MOA.

We need 7.94" elevation at 250 yards. 1 MOA at 250 yards is worth 2.5 inches. 2.5 divided into 7.94" equals 3.176 MOA. I rounded that off to 3 1/4 MOA. Like wise I have treated all the rest of the plus 50 yard increments.

I could have made more rows and listed them as 100, 150, 200, 250, etc, and that would save a column for something else, but at the same time making the chart longer.....choices....choices.....choicessssss!!

From that chart I refined it to this one.....

Having several different ammunition loads for the same gun, and knowing which ammunition I'm using, I need to tag the chart with information to use the correct chart with the correct ammo. I added to the headed information to identify the gun and load it pertains to , plus the environment condition the data was based on.

The chart was physically larger than I needed, so I then made this smaller version to carry in my pocket, in my gear, in my chart book or perhaps tape it to the stock of my rifle....

There is some white space in the header that could be removed making the physical dimensions even smaller, without sacrificing the size of font I desperately need for my old eyes! Even some white space in the columns could be removed to reduce the size. And, if you notice, the MOA adjustment in column 2 and 3 have either whole numbers or half's. The quarter reference have been rounded up or down for whole MOA or half MOA.

The reason for this is my scope turret elevation adjustments are in 1 MOA increments. I can manually hit between the MOA whole numbers and pretty close estimate a half, but any finer than that is not practical or accurate.


All charts come two sided, so if I carry this in my pocket or in my book, I can use the other side of this same chart for additional information, like I have in this next chart.....the trajectory calculator provides the data, why not use it!

This chart list the MOA I need to adjust for windage. For a 10 MPH constant direct cross wind, I will need to adjust into the wind 3.75 MOA to get my hit at 500 yards.

And, finally, in the third column of this chart, it gives me the adjustment I need to make to hit the target at a given distance if I am shooting on a slant, that is an angle up or down, at a target below my position or above my position. These charts don't provide small increments of change, but they do give me a general idea within the parameters. Slant angle is not proportionate. For example 15* is not half of the adjustment of 30*, nor would 45* be 1.5 times more than 30*. If those were important to me, I would be wise to create a little larger chart and add those columns in.

Wind is proportionate for velocity, but not wind direction. So, if there is a 15 MPH direct cross wind I can multiply the 10 MPH correction by 1.5 and get the solution.

If the wind is coming dead on from the 12 o'clock, or direct from our rear at 6 o'clock, we normally do not correct for wind drift. If the wind velocity doubles from 10 mph to 20 mph, we can double the correction. Using that logic/method, if the wind shifts direction half way between on our nose from a direct cross, we should be able to half the amount of correction we need for the direct cross, but it doesn't work that way.....the correction for wind direction is not proportional, but on a sliding scale.

If the wind was blowing from 1:30 o'clock, I would use 3/4 the value of a direct cross wind, even though this was only half the direction. This would not be accurate, but be much closer than half'ing the correction value.......confused yet?!?! Get a trajectory calculator, insert some test data, change it around and see the different results, and it will all be as clear as mud!!!

OK.....trying not to rewrite some already excellent books on this subject, I will let others jump on and either add, correct, supplement, or ask their questions about Come-Up charts, or Come-Over Charts!!!

I have left a lot of holes that can be filled by others and hopefully some will post up a sample of their charts. Remember the chart can be as simple as the shooters desires, or as complex as required to provide parts or all of the shooting solution. Charts do not replace calculators either on our desk or in the field. There are trajectory calculators online, programs for laptops and desktops, for personal notepads, phones and watches, as well as in rangefinders and other gizmos. Many of these are just about as handy to carry in the field as are the simple paper printed charts. To each his own. I like the simple paper models, but that doesn't mean I don't use some of the electronics in the field.

Best Regards......Eagle Six
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Old 02-11-2012, 03:57 AM
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Off Hand?

Maybe it has been gone over, I'm still on post #16.


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Old 03-02-2012, 10:13 AM
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Hi! New guy here!

Wow, great informative thread.

Advice I can give to brand-new shooters:

First, I'd start out with a .22 With the cost of ammo going up, and the need to practice constantly, it makes a perfect training rifle.

Nothing wrong with bench shooting as a starting point. Reason being, first it teaches you to sight in your own rifle (as well as SAFETY, familiarity with the platform, unclearing jams, loading, recoil, etc). Second, a new shooter can concentrate on trigger control, breathing, and sight picture. Eventually getting into range estimation, windage & elevation of sights.

Once those fundementals are down, I like to start with prone, then kneeling/sitting, and finally offhand. Using a sling to stabalize, and other ways to stabalize the shooter.

A log book is neccesary. It also allows one to track progress, and reinforces memorization of bullet trajectory.

Finally, join a local match. Not only does it make shooting fun, you get to meet other shooters and learn little tricks of the trade.

BTW, if you find you are shooting a lot of federal ammo, Federal has a neat little FREE program for bullet trajectory. It takes inputs of elevation, windage, zero, yardage, etc. It's a neat starting point, but should not replace your own logbook.

http://www.federalpremium.com/resour...plication.aspx

examples:


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Old 03-02-2012, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog650 View Post
,, and attend an Appleseed event. Best way to learn, short of joining the Army or Marines, IMHO.

+1 I just did this in January, Great course I would highly recommend.

*and I'd like to add TRIGGER FOLLOW THROUGH, don't just go pulling away at the trigger. Creep on it, exhale , and pull back and hold it back like a follow through jump shot. I learned this during appleseeds and it really improved my groupings.
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Zombie2013 View Post
~snip~ *and I'd like to add TRIGGER FOLLOW THROUGH, don't just go pulling away at the trigger. Creep on it, exhale , and pull back and hold it back like a follow through jump shot. I learned this during appleseeds and it really improved my groupings.
This is one of my pet peeves.....Trigger Control, slapping the trigger, clutching the trigger, releasing the trigger to soon. All new shooters violate these principles. It is to be expected as, "we don't know, what we don't know". On the other hand, I have seen many experienced shooters, and many of them being trained, violate the principle of Follow Through. It's one of the important fundamentals which give us a foundation for consistency.

Best Regards......Eagle Six
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:58 AM
Survivor22lr Survivor22lr is offline
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Oh. Range estimation trick that can be practiced everyday!

To and from where I park to where I work is half a mile walk each way.

I know my own stride to 25 & 50 yards.

What I do is pick an object in the distance (whether it be a sign post, an intersection, or parked car) I believe is either 25 yards or 50 yards and start counting my stride at a casual pace.

For 100 yards, I just doube the stride, 200 yards etc etc.

Anyway, I can now pick and object and pretty much estimate the distance within a few yards.

This also helps me reinforce size of objects at a distance with relation to other objects nearby. Mainly adult sized humans (I pass by several bus stops).

So the next time you're out doing a daily stroll, start estimating ranges. It also makes walking a bit more fun for excerise.
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My basic tip...

Miss.

If you are constantly getting solid hits on your target, your exercise is too easy. You should always be practicing at the level where you miss at least half of the shots.

Increase your distance, Reduce your target, change your shooting position, Do something that will cause you to move from what you can do to what you barely can accomplish.
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Old 03-12-2012, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk21 View Post
appleseed project is great!

if your just learning to shoot........ a good .22 and tons of ammo and have some fun. try and shoot everyday short ranges and slowly move the distance further. but have fun.

learn to clean the gun! keep it simple. iron sites and a slig.
This. Find an Appleseed happening and attend. Wear out a .22lr. Much good advice already posted above about sight use, trigger squeeze, breathing, relaxing, distance estimating, etc.

Learn how to use a sling to stabilize the rifle by wrapping it around your elbow, so to speak.

Buy a scope with basic, rough range finding and hold over ability and study the manual about how that works.
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