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Old 06-14-2009, 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by mofugger View Post
So basically I need to have a tax stamp to own an AR pistol because I already own a full sized AR?
No, not if you possess an AR Lower registered as a pistol.

You CAN buy an AR pistol regardless of what other types of AR's you have and vice-versa.

Now, If you were screwing around one day decided to see what the pistol upper looked like on the rifle lower... that would be considered possessing and manufacturing an unregistered short barreled rifle, without a license to manufacture them... so don't do that.

Or.. say you own a AR Rifle, and ordered a 10.5" barreled noveske upper... but you do not own an AR lower registered as a pistol.. that could cause problems if ATF decided you intended to manufacture/possess an unregistered short barreled rifle.. it's up to them and ultimately up to a judge and jury who likely know nothing about firearms.

Last edited by kef3stlmo; 06-14-2009 at 05:52 AM..
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Old 06-14-2009, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocYoung View Post
Re-RTFM.
Thanks Doc for the great post on NFA/Class III weapons ownership. I wish more people would exercise their right to keep and bear full auto, suppressed, short barreled destructive devices!

First let me say... I am not a Federal Agent, not a LEO or a lawyer... but I do have a Federal Firearms License, Collector of Curio and Relics (FFL C&R) as is required in Missouri to own a suppressor (but not other types of NFA weapons and devices) This is not the case in other states... just Missouri as far as I know... as a C&R FFL holder, I am subject to 1 compliance check in a twelve month period and at my request this can be done at the nearest ATF branch office.

FireCop is actually correct here. Only Federal Firearms Licensed Dealer, Manufacturers and Collectors are subject to 27 C.F.R. 478.23 (right of entry).

The only extra compliance a non FFL holding NFA weapon owner, (actually referred to as a "Registrant") is subject to is 26 U.S.C. sec. 5841(e)

"(e) Proof of registration
A person possessing a firearm registered as required by this section shall retain proof of registration which shall be made available to the Secretary upon request."

I own a suppressor... and they are awesome by the way

FFL C&R aside.. As an NFA Registrant... If a crime happened in my area and they suspected a suppressor in my caliber was used I would expect a visit from the local sheriff, but he would still need probable cause and a warrant to search my residence if I do not consent. Same for the ATF who would be required to go before a Federal Magistrate and obtain a warrant if no consent is given.

However if ATF knocked on my door and asked for proof of registration I would be required by 26 U.S.C. sec. 5841(e) to produce my approved/stamped form 4 to the Secretary of the Treasury (or agents thereof). This means, if I choose to be rude, they can wait on the front porch while I go retrieve it. An NFA Registrant is not covered by 27 C.F.R. 478.23

At the very bottom of the form 4 is this sentence

"Proof of Registration: This approved application is the registrant's proof of registration and it shall be made available to any ATF officer upon request."

If a registrant is in possession of an NFA weapon and is approached in public (say at a range) by an ATF agent and asked to produce the registration they are obligated to comply. I have to keep a copy of the Form 4 (both sides) with my suppressor at all times lest I be in violation of 26 U.S.C. sec. 5841(e)

FFL Dealers, Manufacturers and Collectors are required to submit to firearms trace and compliance inspections

I have a friend that owns a high volume gun store, and others that are class II/III dealers.. and I have asked ATF Inspectors and Agents what they do if consent is not given or if their reasonable request for a compliance check/criminal investigation is rebuffed by the FFL holder.

They will get what is called an inspection warrant, or a search warrant (in the case of a criminal investigation) and you will most assuredly lose your FFL. With the warrant all bets are off, they can and will make a forced, knock and announce entry and search the, soon to be former, gun business.

If the dealer/manufacturer was unable to be contacted the ATF inspector would have to obtain a warrant from a Federal magistrate to search.

Source-27 C.F.R. 478.23, http://law.justia.com/us/cfr/title27...2.3.3.1.3.html

Source- 26 U.S.C. sec. 5841(e) , http://frwebgate5.access.gpo.gov/cgi...ction=retrieve

Last edited by kef3stlmo; 06-14-2009 at 05:48 AM..
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Old 06-18-2009, 07:33 PM
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kef3stlmo,

outstanding write up !!

Thank you.
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Old 06-23-2009, 02:15 PM
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If you had a suppresed or full auto firearm. it would be smart to remove the firing pins from your guns like Bob lee Swagger on "Shooter" on account of ATF house searches!!! lol!!!
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Old 07-29-2009, 01:43 PM
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I have shot FA weapons at a range in Las Vegas. Fun I guess if you are rich. I don't have any desire to own one but I have a question about so many videos on youtube. There are videos of Glock 18's or converted Glocks and a lot of other weapons that are full auto. All of these could not have been built before 1986 and you know the people don't have $20-30,000 to buy one. How are they getting around the law? Am I missing something.
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Old 07-29-2009, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy View Post
I have shot FA weapons at a range in Las Vegas. Fun I guess if you are rich. I don't have any desire to own one but I have a question about so many videos on youtube. There are videos of Glock 18's or converted Glocks and a lot of other weapons that are full auto. All of these could not have been built before 1986 and you know the people don't have $20-30,000 to buy one. How are they getting around the law? Am I missing something.
From what I understand, the Glock 18 is not transferable to private individuals.

The guys on Youtube who have Glock 18's are most likely either law enforcement personnel or they have Class I, II, or III SOT status.
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Old 07-29-2009, 09:00 PM
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But it's not just Glocks. I see many weapons firing FA, everything from .22's on up. I could be wrong but some of these people don't look like dealers. Not exactly sure what a dealer looks like.
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Old 07-29-2009, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy View Post
But it's not just Glocks. I see many weapons firing FA, everything from .22's on up. I could be wrong but some of these people don't look like dealers. Not exactly sure what a dealer looks like.
The people shooting full auto on Youtube are one of four things things: 1.) Law enforcement, military, or government personnel 2.) private citizens in possession of legally owned and registered weapons 3.) people who hold Class I, II, or III SOT status or 4.) Criminals in possession of illegal weapons.

I'm pretty confident that 99.99% of the people on Youtube fall into one of the first three categories. No criminal is dumb enough to invite BATFE to raid his house in search of contraband.

There are no loopholes. Those who break the law are prison sentences waiting to happen.
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Old 10-12-2009, 05:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mofugger View Post
I've always wondered what they would do if you're simply not at home when they show up. No, I don't mean because you bailed out of town, but because you were at work, the store, hooking up with some chick you met at a bar last week, etc. Would they leave a little note on your door like UPS/FEDEX does sometimes?

More likely you will find your door kicked in.
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Old 11-30-2009, 03:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Swift View Post
Didn't a State recently over turn a lot of the class 3 laws that silencers, short barrels, etc would not need to pay the tax stamp. Can't recall which state I know that they did not include F/A but they got rid of everything else in terms of state law.
That was the great state of Montana. Essentially, if it's built in Montana, sold in Montana, and stays in Montana, the Fed's have NO right to regulate it. This applies to all fully automatic weapons, all semi-automatic weapons, accessories, silencers/suppressors, et al.

It's my understanding that this legislation is due to the fact that the Fed's use the "Interstate Commerce" clause of the Constitution to regulate anything that they so see fit. Montana's legislation was drawn up and passed as a clear exercising of the 10th Amendment.
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Old 12-04-2009, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ousmo92 View Post
I was told once that when you own a classIII weapon, you are subject to an ATF search of your home at anytime with no warning. This is to assure you are properly storing said weapon. Is this true? Thanks
NO ! A search warrent is required.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocYoung View Post
Yes, an example would be if you owned a suppressor, and your neighbor dies of a gunshot wound no one heard. They might want to look at your suppressor. They can come to your home and search for said suppressor without your consent.
Only if there is "Reasonable suspicion"; If you were seen in the vicinity at the time of the crime then possibly. Otherwise, see above.


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Originally Posted by DocYoung View Post
...AP ammo, Dragons breath ammo, flechete ammo, Hornets nest rubber ball grenades...
Nope, ammo itself is not a DD UNLESS it is an exploding projectile fired out
of a bore larger than .50. The Boys .55 anti-tank round is exempt because the boys rifle is C&R designated. Rubber ball grenades (If you can buy them)
- (and smoke/gas grenades) are exempt because they are hand launched.
They are also exempt if fired from a 37MM grenade launcher. The 40mm is a whole 'nother ball o wax...

Rifle grenades on the other hand are DD's and they as well as any exploding 40mm rounds and exploding LAWS rockets require the $200.00 tax stamp for every round, in addition to the purchase price.

This gets expensive fast folks...


Quote:
Originally Posted by mofugger View Post
So basically I need to have a tax stamp to own an AR pistol because I already own a full sized AR?
Not the pistol remains in its origonal configuration. This could be argued both ways -ad nauseum- so I'll just say YMMV. If you live in a restictive state I'd have the number of a competent firearms attourny on speed dial.

Don't be dumb and never, ever take a picture of an unlawful configuration and post it on teh interweb.

Last edited by Gronk; 12-04-2009 at 06:10 PM.. Reason: Hoping memory serves me well
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Old 12-07-2009, 01:09 PM
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I'm building a 9mm AR with dedicated lower - 10" barrel. I am having the receiver engraved before I assemble it for future SBR stamp, but had it transferred as 'other' so it will be built up as a pistol first. Since it's a 9mm upper and the lower will have a pinned magblock, I think it will be hard for them to argue that I would put it on one of my other AR lowers - after all, why would I, when I clearly am going to have a registered lower for it? You can build a stripped lower into a rifle or pistol, but need to document it. Once built into a rifle you cannot convert it into a pistol. You can however convert a pistol to a rifle. Yeah, I know - stupid semantics, but you need to pay attention to it. It's one reason I went with the 9mm SBR build. Totally dedicated lower, no room for interpretation.
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Old 12-07-2009, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morg308 View Post
can build a stripped lower into a rifle or pistol, but need to document it. Once built into a rifle you cannot convert it into a pistol. You can however convert a pistol to a rifle. Yeah, I know - stupid semantics, but you need to pay attention to it. It's one reason I went with the 9mm SBR build. Totally dedicated lower, no room for interpretation.
Dumb question here: Once the pistol gets into a rifle configuration, can it lawfully be made into a pistol ?


Gronk has idea...
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Old 12-26-2009, 01:57 PM
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kef3stlmo and a few others have posted excellent NFA info!


"I am having the receiver engraved before I assemble it for future SBR stamp"


You don't have to engrave until the Form 1 is approved, plus keep in mind that you can engrave the barrel with all of the required info except the serial number, which must be on the receiver.
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Old 01-16-2010, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticmusings View Post
That was the great state of Montana. Essentially, if it's built in Montana, sold in Montana, and stays in Montana, the Fed's have NO right to regulate it. This applies to all fully automatic weapons, all semi-automatic weapons, accessories, silencers/suppressors, et al.

It's my understanding that this legislation is due to the fact that the Fed's use the "Interstate Commerce" clause of the Constitution to regulate anything that they so see fit. Montana's legislation was drawn up and passed as a clear exercising of the 10th Amendment.
that part is incorrect, it applies to everything except those...
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Old 03-31-2010, 02:40 AM
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One caveot--you also need a sheriff (or DA, or other legal figurehead) sign off on your NFA paperwork. In my county, the sheriff won't sign off. The solution is to form a corporation, and have your corporation purchase the NFA item.

Also, just because it's legal doesn't mean the local authorites will know that. The BATF had to let the local sheriffs know that my 60mm mortar training rounds were legal, and were not considered DDs. Keep your paperwork handy, and your ducks in a row and you will be safe.
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Old 04-15-2010, 02:46 PM
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Want to buy a machine gun for around $1000 instead of $15,000 to $20,000? Sign the online petition to re-open the machine gun registry!

Who will be first?
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:54 AM
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Default Re: Class III fire arms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sampson1986 View Post
The people shooting full auto on Youtube are one of four things things: 1.) Law enforcement, military, or government personnel 2.) private citizens in possession of legally owned and registered weapons 3.) people who hold Class I, II, or III SOT status or 4.) Criminals in possession of illegal weapons.
I would bet most are class III dealers or illegal. Once you get your class III dealer license and a LE "demo letter", which is easily obtained, you can buy just about anything at reasonable prices. You can keep them indefinatly as samples, even if it's something LE would never buy ex. AK Krink, FA 10/22, etc. Hell I've though of doing it, just to buy toys for myself. Too big of a hassle.
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Old 04-29-2010, 01:04 AM
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Default Re: Class III fire arms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shots View Post
One caveot--you also need a sheriff (or DA, or other legal figurehead) sign off on your NFA paperwork. In my county, the sheriff won't sign off. The solution is to form a corporation, and have your corporation purchase the item
There is no need to form a corporation. If you have one use it, but don't form one for this. Buy a copy of Quicken Willmaker (got mine for $15 on Ebay.) Take 10 minutes to fill in the blanks for their Revocable Living Trust. Print it off with a copy of the Certification of Trust. Sign them in front of a notary. Your done. Send that, your form 4, and $200 to ATF. If you can use a corp. in your area you can use a trust. If your worried about this effecting your estate in the long run, don't. You don't have to put anything into your trust, but the NFA items.
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:48 AM
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Default Re: Class III fire arms.

this is good info I just wish there were more names on that signature list.. sigh.


I hate how in the past things were easier to get.. compared to now. THAT needs to CHANGE!
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