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Old 10-23-2019, 12:14 AM
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Last Saturday, my wife and I spent a few hours at an archeolgical site located on the south bank of the Arkansas river, known as the Spiro Mounds Site, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiro_Mounds

I had priviously heard of the mound building culture located along the Mississippi river, but I did not grasp how successfull it was. I did not know it extended nearly the full length on the river, and most of its major tributaries. That it lasted over 600 yrs (850-1450 AD). That they traded specialty good from Florida, to the Great Lakes, and from the Carolinas to Mexico. And they had a larger population, (30 million) and larger trade centers than European countries at the same time. As I drove home, I realized that I had just seen the blue print for a viable long term post grid society.

Crib Notes of the Mississippian Culture,
Farmers, but no Livestock, no horses. Permanent villages. Burrial mounds.
Culivated fields would recieve yearly floods, enriching the soil.
Located on major rivers and near salt deposits.
Fishing and hunting contributed meat, but farming most calories.
Skilled persons would produce cotton fabric and woven fishing nets.
Corn, Beans, and Squash and small grains, were primary crops.
Wild plants, fruit, berries, Acorns, Pecans, Walnuts, Hickory, etc.
Village government organized, stored, and traded excess grain (especially maize).
Extensive trade and communication conducted using runners and canoes.

I am trying to compare this native american culture with modern people, and factoring in the large changes in land use, flood control, and wildlife.
Frankly, I do not believe you can find a comparable number of Americans (30 million) willing to live in a hut allong a major river, and grow thier food in oversized gardens using hand tools. I dont believe the rest of population would remain in the big cities and starve, while any small group tried to recreate a sustainable society. So clearly there would have to be a lengthy transition where small groups tended small hidden gardens in remote areas, and waited till the US population collapsed.
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Old 10-23-2019, 04:36 AM
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Using river ways as transport & societal rebuilding, post a calamitous EOTWAWKI event would be brilliant! Especially given current knowledge, provided that knowledge could be passed on during the rebuilding phase.

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Originally Posted by Hick Industries View Post
...I am trying to compare this native american culture with modern people, and factoring in the large changes in land use, flood control, and wildlife.
Frankly, I do not believe you can find a comparable number of Americans (30 million) willing to live in a hut allong a major river, and grow thier food in oversized gardens using hand tools. I dont believe the rest of population would remain in the big cities and starve, while any small group tried to recreate a sustainable society. So clearly there would have to be a lengthy transition where small groups tended small hidden gardens in remote areas, and waited till the US population collapsed.
Absolutely! Else all that which would possibly be accomplished in the short term would be obliterated.
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Old 10-23-2019, 01:08 PM
Steve_In_29 Steve_In_29 is offline
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This would be how people rebuilt after things degenerated to a pre-industrial level. I don't see it happening while some sort of even semi-modern society remains.
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Old 10-23-2019, 01:24 PM
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There is a book, if you can find a copy, "One Circle" that puts forward a diet that can feed one person for a year grown on just 750 sq/ft. This diet does not include wild meat or meat of any kind. These small plots would be easy to hide (if the bad guys can hide MJ then these plots would be "out of sight and out of mind". Theoretically using this diet the U.S. could easily feed over 25 billion people. Remember "theoretically". Just how many of you would love eating Collard Greens every day, almost?

So, hiding food plots would work, especially after the "large city" mobs died off. The additional variety of nontraditional foods would greatly aid those of us who would have to start rebuilding a new society.

Always remember, knowledge is power!
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Old 10-23-2019, 01:26 PM
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The ancient world had a lot of very interesting stuff in it, that the movies and TV don't bother telling people about. The society you're mentioning is one of them.

Europe also had something like this. A more popular notion is that Europe begins with the Aryans. But before the Aryans, there were other white people all over Europe. They were not merely cavemen, and they already had trade routes that totally crossed western and central Europe. If you're white, it might be that you get most of your DNA from one of those groups, instead of the Aryans, almost no matter where your family is from in Europe.

The best way to learn about a lot of this stuff is to skip TV and popular magazines, and go look at books. Right up until today, movies and the rest of the mass media even omit tons of stuff about the most prominent ancient cultures, like the Greeks and the Romans, and instead just give you the same action movie cliches over and over again.

As far as what you're saying about SHTF, I agree that it's not a way for people to skip SHTF.

There's something I'm changing my mind about that a little similar, though. There are some paintings online of people farming rooftops in post-apocalyptic cities. They're also putting it in a zombie game that's coming out.

Up to now, I think most of us say that cities will implode, that they're death traps, etc. I'm just starting to wonder if cities will sometimes die in such a way that groups of people may continue living in them all along. And if, after the big die-off, the incentives on them will be such that they don't need to move. All they essentially need to grow food is space.

I know what I'm suggesting sounds tough. But it's not like suggesting a manned, lightspeed rocket trip to Jupiter, and then visiting the surface, and then returning home. It's a challenge-- but it's not impossible like that.

For instance, consider something from ancient times like the conquest of Rome. When ancient cities were sacked, it often wasn't the end of the city. The date that historians give as "the fall of Rome" does not mean that people stopped living there the next day.

Rome's defenses were breached, soldiers died, property was taken or damaged, people were carried off, and Rome lost power. But the city lived on.

Could be very true of an American city post-SHTF. A very damaged city is not a dead city. Our assumption may be that the people would leave. But maybe there will be very strong reasons we don't know about yet why sometimes they would be better off staying there.

It's certainly true millions of people in New York can't be supported without daily trucking and factory farms outside of the city. But what about the last few thousand or few hundred people left in New York City? It's a totally different scale, a totally different problem. The same pressure isn't there. They'd be left instead with lots of room to use, including lots of parks.
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Old 10-23-2019, 02:41 PM
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the benefit of tribal civilizations is that you had a high degree of one-ness and tribal in-grouping to be a foundational level of trust for the formation of new societies. we are currently in a very low-trust society, with extreme levels of diversity and individuality. the in-groups couldn't be very large.

the carrying capacity for their method of agriculture was not tremendously high, even their largest settlements were far smaller than what you may be thinking.

however, we have many advantages, for one, as you may remember, native americans were using stone-age tools all the way up until the arrival of European pioneers and settlers. We however would have access to modern tools, or at the very least, significant amounts of already refined scrap metal to improvise or reforge into superior implements.

The right people, with the right skillsets and tools could absolutely survive the way they did.
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Old 10-23-2019, 02:53 PM
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Aren't most large cities in the US on rivers or ocean ports? Water was the way to transport goods until the steam locomotives changed that somewhat.

Some of the cities out West were stopping points or end points for the gold and oil rushes, or are just plain oddities like Phoenix, or Las Vegas that were driven by the advent of air conditioning and politics. My uncle moved to the desert area in the 50s because he had allergies and that was the best medicine available for them back then.
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Old 10-23-2019, 04:28 PM
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Aren't most large cities in the US on rivers or ocean ports? Water was the way to transport goods until the steam locomotives changed that somewhat.

Some of the cities out West were stopping points or end points for the gold and oil rushes, or are just plain oddities like Phoenix, or Las Vegas that were driven by the advent of air conditioning and politics. My uncle moved to the desert area in the 50s because he had allergies and that was the best medicine available for them back then.
yeah, cincinnati, nashville, memphis, st louis, cleveland, louisville, chicago, chattanooga, etc....
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Old 10-23-2019, 09:40 PM
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The basis of most tribes is a large extended family.

USA today most families are not large and often not close, physically or emotionally.

It would take time and work to build a tribe based on trust and reliability.

Better get started now.
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Old 10-24-2019, 12:08 AM
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There is more than one reason why I live on the Rez.
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Old 10-24-2019, 02:26 AM
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There is more than one reason why I live on the Rez.
Interesting. I didn't realize that. I've been impressed with what you've done with your house and homestead, though.

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Old 10-24-2019, 05:18 AM
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There is more than one reason why I live on the Rez.
Like Blackdog just said, I wasn't aware of this either.

Keep up the good work with what you've done in your area. Hoping it rubs off to others too.
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Old 10-24-2019, 05:52 AM
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Interesting. I didn't realize that. I've been impressed with what you've done with your house and homestead, though.

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Thanks. Of course not every Rez works the same way but there are significant advantages to being in a 'country' within a country here. The big one is being fairly safe from any commercial development in the area.

The tribe keeps the feds at bay...and is relaxed enough itself that there is a nice little power vacuum for freedom minded people to occupy. People who where once refugees from a past oppressive American government are pretty sympathetic to people who fear a future oppressive American government. Problems too but I'd take these ones over most others.
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Old 10-24-2019, 10:37 AM
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I have been thinking about what it will take to actually do this. What it will take to grow my own food using hand tools, instead of tractors, and Ag chemicals.
I have substantial experience growing a large garden, and row crop farming using diesel tractors, herbicides, and mechanical tillage. If I plan to attempt gurrilla style homesteading, I had better get some experience with doing all this by hand.

First, I need to find and experiment with open polinated crop varieties that will grow without high nitrogen fertiizer, and will tollerate competition from weeds and drought. What crops should I grow?
Second, I need to find out how much these crops produce under these conditions. How big of a garden will I need?
Third, the climate today is colder and drier than these native americans faced. I better plan for some kind of irrigation. The limestone bedrock of the Ozarks holds a lot os sub surface water and natural springs are very common here. I may need to locate my gardens near these springs instead of counting on consitent river flows.
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Old 10-24-2019, 10:48 AM
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For the most part life has been delocalized so most people’s locals are hollow shells of what once was. Many locations are not even inhabitable without the supply of food, energy, and general materials from outside. This means there are locations that have no reason to be even if there were local resources. This is the case especially with larger urban areas built in areas without enough food, water, and energy in the immediate area. This is pretty much a no brainer but what is hard to understand is the systematic realities of this. Basically, humans almost everywhere are in overshoot. Too many people consuming too much and even subsistence areas with resilience and sustainability are exposed to large migrations of desperate people if systematic breakdown occurs.

The returning to the rivers is problematic for even a fraction of the amount of people that once could live along them. Soil, water, and the web of life has been disrupted into sterilized soils, degraded water, and monocultures of industrial farm land. My recommendation is adaptation and mitigation to this with the building of small communities of likeminded people. This is by no means a refuge to what could happen in a systematic breakdown but it does bolter one’s defenses with resilience and sustainability. The way to do this is a hybridization of the old and new complete with an effort to live your status quo life while you make efforts to disengage from the status quo. What I mean by this is use the power of the status quo of a delocalizing globalism to relocalize your local. This also requires a wisdom in regards to technology and financial liabilities. Pick and choose very carefully how encumbered you become with the status quo. Keep life simple and spartan in a relative way. I say relative because your significant others and local community will likely not be completely on board with your attempts to leave the normality of the status quo. The rivers are a very good place to locate to for a number of reasons but the life is also harsh with heat, cold, and bugs.

Realgreenadaptation.blog
I'm guessing you mean well, but your post simply does not make much sense.
Would you like to try again, without all the evironmentalist talking points?
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Old 10-24-2019, 12:41 PM
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The basis of most tribes is a large extended family.

USA today most families are not large and often not close, physically or emotionally.

It would take time and work to build a tribe based on trust and reliability.

Better get started now.
My wife has a big family and they're mostly good people, all live within about 15 miles of each other. Most of them go to the same church. If SHTF, we'll have a "tribe" of probably 20-30 people. If we can all get together. At that point the bigger problem becomes "how do we feed this many people through the first winter", which if you look back over my history of posting is a topic i struggle with immensely.
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Old 10-24-2019, 03:36 PM
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You can't just turn animals loose to feed on their own in a post apocalyptic evnvironment.
All their feed and care needs to be done in house, in an enclosed environment.
My roosters make lots of noise, this attracts predators fall kinds, and they are necessary for the reproduction of the species. Lots of grains are required to feed these birds ,and it is likely that scraps of food will be much harder to come by just to throw out for the birds.
Goats or any other or animal will require far more food, more acreage to farm for their sake. If it were up to me I would have a Noah's ark of animals preserved for the future but that takes a lot of food and care. Zoos cost millions to run.
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Old 10-24-2019, 04:45 PM
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... What crops should I grow?...
I've seen enough of your posts to know that you are well aware of the basics so I'm not talking at you but with you. If I lived in E. Ok close to the Ozarks I'd plant pecans every Fall and twice on Sundays. If not for me, for the kids. Walnuts would be second and I'd at least try Butternuts.
For the short term I'd plant "Apios americana" at every opportunity, 'guerrilla' if I had to. It responds well to "Bradyrhizobium japonicum" a species of legume-root nodulating, microsymbiotic nitrogen-fixing bacteria. The same innoculent often used for cowpeas and soybeans. Add in corn, potatoes, perhaps dry land rice and the basics are covered.
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Old 10-24-2019, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by merlinfire View Post
My wife has a big family and they're mostly good people, all live within about 15 miles of each other. Most of them go to the same church. If SHTF, we'll have a "tribe" of probably 20-30 people. If we can all get together. At that point the bigger problem becomes "how do we feed this many people through the first winter", which if you look back over my history of posting is a topic i struggle with immensely.
You are lucky to have that as a starting point. I come from a large family but they are spread from eastern Washington to North Carolina and I am about the middle. Spread out, a lot are not close emotionally, not a good starting point.

Work hard on enlisting them into the process, making it easier to solve the food problem.

Good luck.
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Old 10-25-2019, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hick Industries View Post
I have been thinking about what it will take to actually do this. What it will take to grow my own food using hand tools, instead of tractors, and Ag chemicals.
I have substantial experience growing a large garden, and row crop farming using diesel tractors, herbicides, and mechanical tillage. If I plan to attempt gurrilla style homesteading, I had better get some experience with doing all this by hand.

First, I need to find and experiment with open polinated crop varieties that will grow without high nitrogen fertiizer, and will tollerate competition from weeds and drought. What crops should I grow?
Second, I need to find out how much these crops produce under these conditions. How big of a garden will I need?
Third, the climate today is colder and drier than these native americans faced. I better plan for some kind of irrigation. The limestone bedrock of the Ozarks holds a lot os sub surface water and natural springs are very common here. I may need to locate my gardens near these springs instead of counting on consitent river flows.
We had a large potatoes crop stored in a cool dry place. Seeds are simply what you didn't eat by spring, cut into pieces with an eye. We used a spot in a field that was tilled by the tractor, but that wasn't necessary; just easier. We used a horse and a small cultivator once or twice year to clear out weeds and we dug them with a pitchfork or tractor at the end. We got enough rain and never watered them.

Potatoes can be grown in all sorts of environments. Barrels work for vertical growing. We were bagging 20 or 30 - 50lb bags worth for several families a year.

Chickens, goats, milk cow or goat, green beans, carrots, potatoes, corn, cabbage, cucumbers, and some sort of squash. Where I'm at 10-20 acres will let you graze some animals and 1/2 to 1 acre will grow more food than most families can eat.

Then we grew other farm stuff in rotation on the rest of the farm.
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